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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: morgoon on May 04, 2010, 03:35:39 pm
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Well for the first time, just a few minutes ago I pulled out my very first diesel injector
It belongs to (formerly) very rusty 1.6na I bought as a core motor for our 81 rabbit
I have been puttering around the engine all week, cleaning, degreasing and religiously "marinating" every nut and bolt, especially the injectors...
With the injector, I took my time, tightening, loosen a touch, apply more "plus gas", back and forth, more "plus gas" on the threads...(3 more to go :o )
Eventually the injector came out...sure did not look like it was ever going to, and when I first tried I thought I would rip the threads right out of the head, but just a tich to the right, and a tich to the left, douse in juice etc. etc.
I read somewhere that I should put copper anti-seize on those threads, is that correct?
Is it safe to put some copper anti-seize on the injector line threads as well (a very minimal amount)?
I hope I did right when I filled the IP with ATF ;D I thought I read that on here somewhere.
I pulled the pan, and other than the oil being black, there were NO traces of any metal shavings, no sludge...it looked pretty good to my untrained eye, cylinders looked clean, no moisture anywhere...
This engine has been sitting for a very long time it seems, I hope to test fire it towards the end of the week, but first I have to change the timing belt and tensioner (that scares me)
My question is should I put some ATF in the cylinders to help me get a better compression check, or should I just use motor oil?
I could not find any Marvel Mystery Oil...I have never seen that before-do they sell that in Canada?
Thanks for such a great site BTW
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Ok so just prime the motor via oil pump and a drill, and that should be all the oil I need correct?
then hit the starter a few times for each cylinder...is that correct
Thanks for the heads up on keeping my head on my shoulders :)
This diesel world is sure differrent than a gas one :)
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My question is should I put some ATF in the cylinders to help me get a better compression check, or should I just use motor oil?
IMHO the answer is "neither", for a couple of reasons:
#1: you want to know what your actual compression is, not a compression test based on artificial testing conditions ;-)
#2: it's dangerous... given the high compressions your engine can actually ignite that oil or AFT and shoot the compression testor across the room. Several of the Bentley service manuals specifically call this out.. the "wet" test is NOT for diesels!!
(edit: Andrew types fast!!)
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My Bentley is in the mail...
Thanks again
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My Bible is in the mail...
Thanks again
Fixed that for ya. ;)
The Bentley manuals for these older cars are very, very helpful and informative.
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Apparently I might have needed the bible, and the bentley
if I had put a dash of spice in the cylinders
:)
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I just have to point out that this thread in most others would of ended up with someone calling him a noob and someone else telling him to go kill himself and do his VW a favor.
However here, not one iota of negativity. Just full on helpful responses. This place has become my new home since the acquisition of my EcoDiesel (still awaiting delivery, dude sellin it is still trying to find a car) and I just soak in all this helpful info.
I felt this should be noted.
Superb!
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We were all newbies once... and on one level or another we'll always be newbies !! ;)
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This community is still small enough, and composed of all the "good" folks.
There have been occasions where this group of 'dubbin neighbors has turned nasty, usually to chase someone out who just flat out didn't belong. Either an arrogant, know it all SOB or someone trying to muscle in and take over or some similar low life, but those incidents are few and thankfully brief.
We may be weird, bizarre, and occasionally a tad insane, but we're good folks. :D
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Nickel handles higher temps than copper, which handles higher temps than silver, which handles higher temps than zinc. While zinc has a lower likelihood of reacting with the aluminum, I don't think zinc will last in this environment:
LOCTITE® ZINC ANTI-SEIZE 750°F (400°C)
LOCTITE® Silver Grade Anti-Seize Lubricant is a heavy-duty, high-temperature anti-seize thread compound
applicable for heavy pressure applications. It can be used in high temperature areas up to 1600 °F (870 °C).
LOCTITE® C5-A is a copper based anti-seize lubricant which provides a shield against high temperature seizing
and galling. Studs, bolts, flanges, gaskets--all mated parts remove more easily and in cleaner, better condition,
in typical dry service temperatures from -20 to +1800 °F. C5-A can be used on copper, brass, cast iron, steel,
all alloys including stainless steel, all plastics and all non-metallic gasketing materials.
LOCTITE® NICKEL ANTI-SEIZE (28182 1 oz. tube) 2400°F (1315°C)
[url=http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3683_Loctite_AntiSeize_Brochure.pdf]http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3683_Loctite_AntiSeize_Brochure.pdf]
[url]http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3683_Loctite_AntiSeize_Brochure.pdf]http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3683_Loctite_AntiSeize_Brochure.pdf]http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3683_Loctite_AntiSeize_Brochure.pdf]
[url]http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3683_Loctite_AntiSeize_Brochure.pdf (http://[url=http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3683_Loctite_AntiSeize_Brochure.pdf)[/url]
Last but not least, remember that anti-seize acts as a superior lubricant during torquing, so you need to reduce torque values to avoid stripping threads. I have another post somewhere that lists the coefficient of friction - I don't remember exactly off the top of my head, but we use a 20% torque reduction over oil lubricated threads in our manufacturing process.
Side note: not that any of us need it ;), but Loctite also makes a product designed specifically for spark plugs:
LOCTITE® GRAPHITE-50™ • Highly electrically conductive, non-metallic • Highly electrically conductive in metal-to- • Spark plugs on engines
ANTI-SEIZE anti-seize metal joints
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LOCTITE® ZINC ANTI-SEIZE 750°F (400°C)
If your head even gets close to 750 F you are so screwed... From another engine site ?
"There are a couple of ways that aluminum becomes annealed. One way is if the aluminum part reaches 600° F or more for at least one minute. Another way is if the aluminum is exposed to 450° F temperature for two hours or more. "
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Side note: not that any of us need it , but Loctite also makes a product designed specifically for spark plugs:
LOCTITE® GRAPHITE-50™ • Highly electrically conductive, non-metallic • Highly electrically conductive in metal-to- • Spark plugs on engines
ANTI-SEIZE anti-seize metal joints
If they only had something like this for glow plugs ;)
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I didn't read all the replies but sort of as a rule of thumb i always use anti-sieze on anything that is fastening two different materials in particular steel bolts into alluminum.
they tend to bind pretty good after they have heated and cooled a couple hundred times.
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Side note: not that any of us need it , but Loctite also makes a product designed specifically for spark plugs:
LOCTITE® GRAPHITE-50™ • Highly electrically conductive, non-metallic • Highly electrically conductive in metal-to- • Spark plugs on engines
ANTI-SEIZE anti-seize metal joints
If they only had something like this for glow plugs ;)
is that supposed to be an oxy moron? :P of course you could use it on the glow plugs. it's the same idea.
And the zinc flaked right off of the bolts i used on my down pipe! hahahah it was expected.
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I used the ;)... and it is me of course I wasn't completely serious.
They really need different fonts to convey emotion better. For all those who wonder about me here's the big hint, Don't ever take me too serious as I love to help and have fun.
End thread interruption...carry on :D
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I don't think the threads of the injectors or glow plugs would ever see 350°F. Zinc is good for more than double that temp.
Exactly my point too ;-)
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Read..read..read, learn..learn, read some more, learn, break something, learn, learn
rinse and repeat :)
Thanks to all, this is great info!
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Read..read..read, learn..learn, read some more, learn, break something, learn, learn
rinse and repeat :)
Thanks to all, this is great info!
I hope you enjoy the group even half as much as I do - always learning something new from these guys :-) I thought I really knew these engines inside and out, and every day my % drops even further with aspects I did not know exhisted. I'm down to maybe the low teens now...
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Even through my saddest days i get out the camera to show you guys pictures of my mistakes jutting through the side of the block so you may learn at my expense :P =D
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Everyone learns when a poor unfortunate soul goes wrong somewhere. But hey. If no one went wrong and posted about it.. others could follow the same path.
SALUTE to Smokey Eddy ;)!
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Yes a Salute! indeed I have been following the Carnage thread
Gulp!
What if we all sent Smokey Eddy a bit of JB weld
Perhaps we could get him back on the road
Turn the Carnage thread into how far can you drive on JB weld thread :)
Thanks for the warm "weldcome" from an obviously bored newb :)
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Yes a Salute! indeed I have been following the Carnage thread
Gulp!
What if we all sent Smokey Eddy a bit of JB weld
Perhaps we could get him back on the road
Turn the Carnage thread into how far can you drive on JB weld thread :)
Thanks for the warm "weldcome" from an obviously bored newb :)
aw gee thanks guys. just so this thread isn't TOTALLY jacked im going to flat out say
Yes, anti-sieze the injector threads. Helps seal them too. (don't forget to reduce the torque value though. anti-sieze is grease with alluminum powder in it. reduce the dry torque value by 10% - someone correct me if im wrong please)
at least i'll have a full on 1.9aaz build underway. But i am kind of sad to see the 1.6 go. I liked having something different.
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Yes, anti-sieze the injector threads. Helps seal them too.
The heat shield is all the sealing it needs provided it gets torqued right. ;D
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Mor, "gasoline only" when a Tech checks an engine for compression and finds a low Cyl, they want to know if it is valve train/head, or rings, the old school way is to add oil to the questionable Cyl. If the rings are bad, the oil will bring the compression up, this lets the Tech make a complete diagnosis for an estimate of repairs. The high tech way is to use a leakdown tester and all of the neat stuff that goes with it. So no oil in Diesel Cyls for compression check please, if you have low compression, tear the engine down.
Also, please take note of what libby said, the question is not heat but Galvanic corrosion, Zinc based is better, and make sure you torque the injectors, (you do have a good torque wrench ;D), and replace the injector seals, and make sure you put them in facing the right direction, heat is not a concern, leaking combustion and Galvanic corrosion are.
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Thanks for the reply
I am in the process of building a leak down tester from some parts I have laying around
But I am out of the VW game tomorrow, disapointing, as I had a day off planned to wrench away, but I have just gotten word that I have a bunch of work to get caught up on for a deadline tomorrow
:(
Thanks for the heads up....
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Yes, anti-sieze the injector threads. Helps seal them too.
The heat shield is all the sealing it needs provided it gets torqued right. ;D
but who here has never had a leak from the threads before? honestly :P
oh sorry im talking about using anti-sieze on the mating parts of the injectors them selves. never miinnddd
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I went with copper, I think that was where the thread had last left off
Then when I got back to it...we had moved to Zinc
I did not get any real "WWWWWWAIT" don't use copper replies..
It is all good... I think :)
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Off topic, but you were using gas as a penetrating oil? Never heard that before..... I recently used ATF and acetone with great results.
-Todd
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So put them in clean and dry, or PTFE tape. ::)
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i think andrew already mentioned the galvanic corrosion? or some sort of chemical reaction between the copper and aluminum? i have always been told to use something BESIDES copper anti-seize on aluminum, or anywhere that a part will come in contact with aluminum. ive never personally seen a case of copper anti seize eating aluminum, but ive never questioned it either.
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i think andrew already mentioned the galvanic corrosion? or some sort of chemical reaction between the copper and aluminum? i have always been told to use something BESIDES copper anti-seize on aluminum, or anywhere that a part will come in contact with aluminum. ive never personally seen a case of copper anti seize eating aluminum, but ive never questioned it either.
Zinc is such a natural anti-rust agent, I've never used anything but it on iron/steel. That's why "below the belt line" all OEM's use zinc clad steel sheets now for the body panels... at least here in NAFTA.
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Thanks for all the replies...it looks like it might be personal preference?
http://www.kraftindustrialsupply.com/My%20Scans/ZINCAS-EN.pdf (http://www.kraftindustrialsupply.com/My%20Scans/ZINCAS-EN.pdf)
Loctite ® Zinc Anti-Seize (formerly C-638) is a smooth, homogenous mixture of zinc dust and petrolatum. It prevents seizing during assembly or disassembly of threaded or unthreaded metal joints--particuarly if these metal joints involve aluminum or aluminum alloys. Zinc Anti-Seize also provides corrosion protection for both aluminum and ferrous metal (iron Base) components. Within a metal threaded connection, it acts like an “internal galvanize” using the electrochemical properties of the zinc dust to protect iron surfaces.
Or.....
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/lubricants/specialty_lubricants/Permatex_Copper_Anti-Seize_Lubricant_b.htm (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/lubricants/specialty_lubricants/Permatex_Copper_Anti-Seize_Lubricant_b.htm)
A premium quality copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist. Contains a high percentage of micro-fine copper flakes in a semi-synthetic grease carrier and is fortified with high quality rust and corrosion inhibitors. Temperature range: -30°F to 1800°F (-34°C to 982°C). Provides good electrical conductivity. Meets Mil Spec #907E.
Suggested Applications: Spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, thermostat housing bolts, fuel filter fittings, and battery cable connections
So after all that …what is/was the VW factory practice injector instalation?
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You'd want to look into galvanic corrosion to understand. When zinc and aluminum come into contact with an electrolyte between them, the zinc is sacrificed and oxidized. When copper and aluminum come into contact with an electrolyte between them, aluminum is sacrificed and oxidized and the reaction happens 3 times faster than it does between zinc an aluminum.
If you google "aluminum boat anode" somewhere you'll see what they use to protect the aluminum engine from dissolving in the salt waters :-D Hint, its not copper.
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Thank You Gentleman
that sure seems to clear things up
Zinc it is ......
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http://www.grabberman.com/Media/TechnicalData/127.pdf (http://www.grabberman.com/Media/TechnicalData/127.pdf)
Depending upon which aluminium we think we are dealing with, the steel of the injector is closer to the Al in the galvanic table than Zn. Never seen a corroded injector body, just carboned up threads occasionally, but usually just a dampness from some 'water displacing' diesel...
I maintain, it is best to put the injectors in with almost nothing packing the threads.
After all, the seal is your 'brand new' heat shield which doesn't leak ;D. If they are expected to leak, then why not use 'recallibrated' heatshields. ???
None of my diesel books from VW or Bentley recomend pastes on the threads. I think if you want anything, PTFE is the way to go. 51 lbft dry, according to book.
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You'd want to look into galvanic corrosion to understand. When zinc and aluminum come into contact with an electrolyte between them, the zinc is sacrificed and oxidized. When copper and aluminum come into contact with an electrolyte between them, aluminum is sacrificed and oxidized and the reaction happens 3 times faster than it does between zinc an aluminum.
If you google "aluminum boat anode" somewhere you'll see what they use to protect the aluminum engine from dissolving in the salt waters :-D Hint, its not copper.
just think of this, we build the entire damn boat out of aluminum, we put a couple zincs on all our boats usually. all boats that roll out of the shop get zincs.
and salt water will still corrode an aluminum engine block over time if you dont flush them out regularly. and an automotive engine in a boat never lasts that long either, head gaskets are different material. boat engines get stainless ringed head gaskets.
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You'd want to look into galvanic corrosion to understand. When zinc and aluminum come into contact with an electrolyte between them, the zinc is sacrificed and oxidized. When copper and aluminum come into contact with an electrolyte between them, aluminum is sacrificed and oxidized and the reaction happens 3 times faster than it does between zinc an aluminum.
If you google "aluminum boat anode" somewhere you'll see what they use to protect the aluminum engine from dissolving in the salt waters :-D Hint, its not copper.
just think of this, we build the entire damn boat out of aluminum, we put a couple zincs on all our boats usually. all boats that roll out of the shop get zincs.
and salt water will still corrode an aluminum engine block over time if you dont flush them out regularly. and an automotive engine in a boat never lasts that long either, head gaskets are different material. boat engines get stainless ringed head gaskets.
Yep, and how long will the boat or engine last w/o any zinc ?
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Posted by: Mark(The Miser)UK
After all, the seal is your 'brand new' heat shield which doesn't leak . If they are expected to leak, then why not use 'recallibrated' heatshields.
None of my diesel books from VW or Bentley recomend pastes on the threads. I think if you want anything, PTFE is the way to go. 51 lbft dry, according to book.
and salt water will still corrode an aluminum engine block over time if you dont flush them out regularly. and an automotive engine in a boat never lasts that long either, head gaskets are different material. boat engines get stainless ringed head gaskets.
No kidding... I learn so much here...