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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TDsamurai on April 23, 2010, 09:43:44 pm
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So ive spent the last hour or 2 researching what to do with my crankcase breather. I dont like oil in my intake and i have seen some mixed opinions of people saying it helps lube your valves and others saying it causes carbon build up on your valves and can gum up your turbo and intercooler aswell as substantially decreasing the lifespan of an engine.
First off i disagree with it lubing your valves yea it might help a bit but after the countless articles on the negative effects of a crankcase breather to intake it comes down to a point where the positive effects of eliminating this factory flaw outweighs the negatives.
Now i am sure many will bring up a CCV and being a friday night i already forgot what it stands for however i have retained what it does, it is simply a filter that seperates the blow by gases from the oil mist and drains the oil back to the crankcase.
And i do not want to hear anyone go off about changing your piston rings because all diesels and as far as im concerned all internal combustion engines have blow by, some more than others but they all have it.
So the cheap solution is simply get a long hose from my breather and dangle it under my engine so it doesnt drip all over everything, and the second cheapest is fab up a nice catch can (i work at a machine shop so a billet aluminum catch can would be cheap and easy). The third option would be a CCV but im too cheap to spend that kind of money on something else that has a service life.
So heres my scenario, i dont want a catch can because well its cheaper and easier to just drip on the ground. Secondly i don't really want to be dripping on the ground because i park in my nice clean garage most the time, but if needed its a sacrifice im willing to make.
One thing i haven't found any information on is routing it to my exhaust it seems it would be the happy medium. I understand that the flow of the exhaust might create a vaccum past the breather port and could suck out more oil than neccessary. And i understand that if i got soot in my breather that would be almost equivalent to pouring sand in my oil. I guess if this option would work it would take the catch cans place as second cheapest option.
The question is, would the exhaust cause enough vaccum? i find it doubtful. and is there any possibility of exhaust making its way through the breather? and if so could a check valve be installed to eliminate the possibility or would that restrict the breather too much and cause oil to come out my dipstick?
I appreciate everyones input.
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What engine? What's the matter with the stock oil separator? I have a catch can to set up but that's to clear some space.
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1.6TD If you pull the intake boot off the front of your turbo you will see whats wrong with it, and if i start running excessive amounts of boost it will become even more evident from my understanding. If you have a N/A engine i think its less of an issue because they tend have less blow by.
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There is a company that air/oil seperators for aircraft
Some good info HERE:www.m-20turbos.com
GEE-BEE
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Could you please expand on that?
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Could you please expand on that?
I'm guessing the hot gasses stream the oil to crud
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you could do something like what the 1.5 and 1.9 engines had if I am thinking right. This is one *far right with 2 hoses comming off* from a 1.9 setup.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/burnyourmoney/DSC08271.jpg)
There is a fuel pump block off plate if it were a gasser is located beside the vacuum pump. You can take that off, tap it, put a barbed fitting in it, and T into your existing line to the intake. That way you can still protect your valve guides, but mostly it will fall back into the oil pan instead of the intake. These engines run too long to not have the oil going to the valves in my opinion, but I don't like spending money to redo valve guides etc.
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TD, if you spend over a thousand dollars on a Giles modified pump, and have the injectors precision set, you really want to take the oil mist out of the equation, why? Because you have looked at your fueling and air volumes at certain boost levels and have had the fuel system set up to get to the correct Stoichiometric number for your diesel. Introducing oil mist alters this by adding another source of fuel, now how much this alters the a/f ratio, I don't know, but to me if you spend all this money to try to get the A/F ratio right, why introduce oil mist? If it is a factory rebuild, it really doesn't matter because you are not being so precise.
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The only cars with problems related to intakes getting gummed up that you really see are TDI cars with EGR, or possibly the very few IDI engines that had EGR (very late model AAZ).
A bit of oil mist in your turbo won't hurt anything, nor will it gum up your intake or your valves. I don't think we've ever seen anyone on here tear down an old 1.6 and have evidence of buildup in the intake, intake ports, valves, etc. There is some concern with runaway when your engine is really beat and has really, really bad blowby, but even that seems to have been largely fixed by the oil shield on top of the cam and the hockey-puck oil separator.
Dripping it on the ground is bad manners IMHO. I suppose you could route it to the exhaust, but if buildup of stuff is what you're concerned about that sounds like a VERY good way to have problems - 800+ degree exhaust gasses will definitely cook oil mist. Sounds like a recipe for a coked up tailpipe.
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I would think that after shutdown the oil could still drip and possibly cause a fire in the heat soaked tail pipe. Longshot, but not impossible.
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I was in the same boat not long ago... I have a Dodge caravan I put a 1.6L NA 1984 in, turbo'ed it, and ran the 4 foot hose over the side after crossing most of the hood line in hopes that length being above the the engine would allow most of the mist to fall to the bottom of the 3/4" hose and drain back into the valve cover that did not have the nice factory baffle that runs the full length of the cover. I did not vent to the exhaust as this would have pressurized the crank case causing the dip stick to eject loads of oil. I did not put it post turbo for the same reason, I did not put it pre-turbo as it would certainly have pooled in my 2" intercooler loop.
Unfortunately, I vented 1 - 2 quarts a month onto the road and the entire bottom of my car. Good for continued rust protection, but quite a mess.
So, I welded an aluminum separator, not catch can. It self drains back into the engine and works great:
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/the_arb/diesel/th_100_5710.jpg) (http://s533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/the_arb/diesel/?action=view¤t=100_5710.jpg)
There are details on my build page on how it looks inside. . . . WOW, I was going to provide a link, but I see I never posted the insides. Must have been having too much fun getting 40 + mpg in a 4,000 lb ride ! I'll have to post them after I finish fixing an unrelated oil leak (turbo drain line crack due to anti-torq engine mounts failure)
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yes, exactly, a separator, not a catch can. thats what i built.
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yes, exactly, a separator, not a catch can. thats what i built.
Rather than posting my separator with my build, maybe I should start a separate thread on separator styles ? :-D
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I forgot to mention in my earlier post that if you purposely "vent" motor oil onto the street I hope you die from liver cancer induced by pce groundwater contamination. These things leak enough oil as they are and we should be doing what we can to avoid spreading used motor oil around the planet.
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ow mystery i guess now is a good time for me to say i hope you die in general and quickly. a polite "thats bad for the environment" would suffice. I know i said i appreciate everyones input but i think that right there just earned you a big STFU.
now back to the subject at hand without cursing eachothers lives...
I find it hard to believe that the oil would not gum up atleast my intercooler wouldnt it? and if if i start introducing even more boost it would easily create vaccum causing it to consume even more oil wouldnt it?
And arb feel free to post up the design of your seperator and other types of seperators, obviously that is the best of both worlds but i do not want to spend much money on this because i still have to lift my samurai after i finish the engine, and i am starting to run out of money. And i guess i didnt mention that i am trying to do all of this within 3 months because i lost my license and i want it driving again when i get it back. So time and money are a factor.
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Here comes the moderator... sadly when I saw the initial post I knew we'd get to mudslinging. :'(
For a variety of reasons people have strong opinions about this subject... let's keep it factual and not personal. This is a family forum where we come to learn from each other.
And that's the key... if you're actually here to learn.. post away. If you've already made your mind up... perhaps better not to post at all... plenty of other reading material abounds on the interwebs. ;)
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Ive posted this to learn more about the topic because there is so many different opinions and i have decided that my final decision of how my engine breathes will be just that. My decision, and it will be based on fact and just how much money i have at the time. There is no intention to have a pissing match on the internet and i encourage mystery to mail me a quality seperator if he feels that strongly about it. I understand that its "bad" but if thats how it ends up then hopefully he can get over it without attempting to "kill" me or something ignorant along those lines. If it makes him feel better i live on an island and i doubt that my decision will effect him in anyway.
Now hopefully we can continue this thread in a friendly manner.
If possible i would like some more information on routing the breather to my exhaust and the effects it would have, i am not too concerned with a fire in my tail pipe as it will be pretty short stack coming through my hood and im sure i might see flames anyway. This seems it would be a very affordable way to eliminate the problem.
And for those that think that getting that oil to the valves helps that much, i thought that some of the TDI's dont even use this system and all they have is a seperator that then drains to crankcase? they seem to do fine for longevity, or is there something i am missing?
I am pleased with the response from almost everyone, lets keep the info coming.
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On the early idi engines didnt the factory vacuum pump pull a vacuum on the crank case vent? The valve cover vent went directly into the intake stream and the lower crank/block vent never went anywhere up near the intake. Also, arnt some 1.6td blocks equipped with just a straight block off plate for the crank vent?
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so on the 1.6idi the vent next to the filter flange can be blocked off without ill effect?
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I have gone to the rotary pump, I have also gone to a non-booster brake system so the pump does nothing for me at all. I was contemplating running a line from the lower vent up to the valve vent and then into the intake stream. But, blocking it off should be a problem, just less favorable than t-ing it up to the valve cover?
The reason I ask is because I want to have fewer things in my engine bay and if I can just get a block off plate for the lower vent I will be very happy. Now if only I could find a way of deleting the vacuum pump all together...
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Vince, delete and give the poster a time out.
TD, you are obsessed with this, ;D. Any who, you need some negative pressure to suck the vapors out and into the exhaust, there is a check valve that allows the negative pressure at the header collector to clear out the crankcase. But guess what Son, you ain't got a collector, or anywhere else you can pull some negative "Hg's. So with a TD, stock exhaust manifold, it just will not work, here are some links so you can see what I am talking about.
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?CatCode=13023&pt=25900 (http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?CatCode=13023&pt=25900)
http://www.allstarperformance.com/downloads/instruction_sheets//ALL34145_Crankcase_Evacuation_System.pdf (http://www.allstarperformance.com/downloads/instruction_sheets//ALL34145_Crankcase_Evacuation_System.pdf)
Now as far as gumming things up, some of the Good Ol' boys round here run pickumups with Nitrous, Chipped fuel systems, Etc. If you look into the IC you will find some oil coating, but not pools of oil, also you can see it in the inlet hoses, it is definitely not a problem at 650-700 hp.
You could also take the Top Fuel, Alcohol, Funny Car approach and run it into your frame with a welded in fitting. :o. But seriously if you are intent on doing this, here is the mother of all links for this
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=oil+catch+tank+diagram&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=oil+catch+tank&gs_rfai=&fp=9118ce00d2daff08. (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=oil+catch+tank+diagram&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=oil+catch+tank&gs_rfai=&fp=9118ce00d2daff08.) Hope it helps.
Oh by the by, island you say, you wouldn't be a Nuffie from Gander Eh? ;D
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libby, i appreciate your knowledge and that you have supporting information for your facts, and your facts seem to be supporting my death sentence haha. So if i leave the breather in stock formation, and port into the bottom of the seperator to the block off plate that should do it, that seems easy. Now just so i dont start drilling holes in random things the block off plate is the plate with 2 bolts holding it beside my oil filter adapter? What size hose should be used and how do you tap into the plastic oil seperator without destroying it? ive never had good luck with plastic. I already have installed the windage tray and i am using a top mount intercooler so unless i angle it abit i guess it wont really matter which side i draw air though.
Bluemule, I think that moroso kit is the exact kit that i have installed on a race car, mind you this was back in highschool when i didnt really understand what it was for. I still do not fully understand why i couldnt install that about a foot after my turbo or so? why wouldnt there be enough negative pressure, and here i was concerned there might be too much. And no im on the other coast, Vancouver Island.
So lets get this straight, the oil into the intake doesnt hurt anything as long as i have no EGR which i do not, however the oil also is not neccessary and it wouldnt hurt anything to not have it there, but it would be best to recycle it into the crankcase for oil consumption purposes.
Thanks for the response guys this is getting alot more interest than i expected.
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What's the difference between this idea and dumping my used motor oil down my nearest storm drain?
What is your concern with oil in the intake tract? Do you have any data on ill effects?
I still do not see the problem with a well maintained properly functioning stock system.
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routing the oil into the exhaust is supposed to burn the oil vapor(as the exhaust is very hot) just as running it back into the intake would.
I understand the interest in keeping the oil out of the intake, especially on a higher mileage motor with significant blowby, it can pool and be a pain whenever you mess with the intake(big mess)
I would run the breather lines on the head and block to a good catch can with a separator system in it(whether that is the factory"hockey puck" or an aftermarket one is up to you) and then run the outlet back to the intake.
that way you dont have all the oil in the intake boot, and you are not getting oil vapor into the air(which will make a mess under the hood if nothing else)
I think the reason that the exhaust oil valve would not work on a turbo app is that the valve is designed to work with the scavenging effect of a header to "pull" the oil vapor out, but post turbo there is no scavenging effect, no negative pressure.
so if you were to install the valve, it would just be closed all the time, and you would have pressure in your block(not a good thing)
-Owen
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mystery, the difference is i would be spreading the oil out all over the road and on the highway and your oil would be in a more concentrated area, therefore your scenario would probably have more impact on any other people than mine would. If you were to read the entire thread maybe you would start to get the idea of what everyone is talking about. The stock system is what is being questioned when adding boost, and believe it or not stock systems can always be improved on. And if you did read the thread you would know that i haven't been driving with my breather on the road, infact i haven't even started my diesel because im still installing it into my suzuki samurai and now that i have asked this question on here if it is as easy as drilling and threading a fitting in bottom of my oil seperater and a fitting into my block off plate then i will probably do that. Let me know if you are done with your ignorant remarks.
All i need to know is if the little plate to the left of my oilfilter mount is the right one, and what size tube is large enough?
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I had a '93 dodge I bought off the show room lot that had a 5.9 cummins turbo diesel. The crank case had a vent that went right down onto the road. Straight, no catch can, no snazzy gizmo's. I don't think that was the last year for that either. I'll have to crawl under my 2004 dodge with a 5.9 cummins turbo diesel. I believe that crank case vents out onto the road as well. (edit: I know it does as there are no additional tubes attached to the intake)
I would have thought the EPA would be all over those trucks if venting the crank case really was an issue...
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My brother bought a used 1999 cummins and it is drained to the road, but i wasn't sure if it was factory or previous owner.
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My brother bought a used 1999 cummins and it is drained to the road, but i wasn't sure if it was factory or previous owner.
factory, Neither of my trucks were modified (I edited my previous post)
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Then again....
do these small 1.6 L VW engines barf more oil than the cummins 5.9?
I hooked up my crank case breather to the stock samurai air box. I'm not seeing a whole lot of oil. Yes there is enough to make the intake wet alright. but it isn't soaking my paper air filter.
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a good condition motor will not spew too much oil, but an old worn out one will throw quite a bit.
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Mystery3
You'll get farther with just a pinch of sugar rather than a gallon of vinegar...
That said,
There is nothing like a good argument for connecting the crankcase vent to the intake.
One such argument would be: Hmmmm.... VW motor in a suzuki samurai..... *snap* those little four wheel drive buggy's that some people like to lift and drive around where there are no roads!!!!
A good and plausable argument there for would be if he takes that motor into somewhat deep water he'll want that crank case vent connected to his intake so his motor doesn't fill with water... Thinking snorkle here...
meh, I plumbed mine in because I didn't like the stink... not because I was going wading...
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I dont see myself going through anything deeper than 3ft. my air filter will probably be about 4ft.
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Bluemule, I think that moroso kit is the exact kit that i have installed on a race car, mind you this was back in highschool when i didnt really understand what it was for. I still do not fully understand why i couldnt install that about a foot after my turbo or so? why wouldnt there be enough negative pressure, and here i was concerned there might be too much. And no im on the other coast, Vancouver Island.
So lets get this straight, the oil into the intake doesnt hurt anything as long as i have no EGR which i do not, however the oil also is not neccessary and it wouldnt hurt anything to not have it there, but it would be best to recycle it into the crankcase for oil consumption purposes.
Thanks for the response guys this is getting alot more interest than i expected.
TD, the question revolves around high pressure waves/pulses. Every high pressure pulse has a low pressure area behind it, even high pressure waves from nuclear bombs. So what happens is a high pressure wave, namely the exhaust pulse, passes by the pipe that is welded to the collector, and of course it is welded on an angle, the check valve ensures that the high pressure does not go back up into the engine.
Now as soon as the high pressure pulse passes you have the low pressure area behind it. What happens now is that the atmospheric pressure in the crank case is greater than the low pressure behind the pulse, this pushes the check valve open and some of vapors go into the collector and then the check valve closes till the next cycle.
Obviously the closer the wave to the angled pipe the more effect there will be, so the header pipes that are closer to the angled pipe will “flow” more than those father away.
So how does this affect us, well because of the nature of a turbo manifold and the turbo itself we have some difficult physics to overcome. So let’s start at the back and work forward. Putting the “angled tube” in the down pipe will not work because there really are no “strong” pressure waves. The turbine homogenizes all of the individual pulses that would normally be found in a header collector, that’s why a turbo engine without a muffler sounds so much different than a non turbo engine with an open header. Also putting the “angled tube” in the area that one could call the “collector” right before the turbine inlet won’t work because the turbine has a certain restrictive effect on the exhaust, which again, kind of homogenizes the pulses, so you do not get a clean pulse in this area either.
The only solution for this is to install four “angled tubes” one at each exhaust port, either in the head or into the exhaust manifold, the reason I stated the there really was no viable option for this in the VW TD, is that drilling the exhaust manifold, properly placing the tubes, etc. is, IMHO a lot of work and $$$$$ for the gains you would see. In the ‘80s both Mercedes and GM used this type of solution to add air from an air pump to the exhaust stream to get the catalyst to Fire Off when the vehicle was cold. It can be done but since you don’t want to break the budget…….
If you wish to filter out some of the oil mist, you can make or buy an oil recovery tank with some baffles, hook one side to the baffle thing on the top of the valve cover and the other end to the inlet side of the turbo, this should filter out the majority of oil. Or you could go the cheapest route and leave it stock.
Wow this looks like a Phd dissertation, so I am done.
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I stumbled across a Mann Provent on local craigslist NIB & cheap. Still haven't gotten around to installing it but here's a pretty detailed article on it & its installation on a PD.
I like it for two main reasons, It has a filter to separate the oil from the CC gasses & ports the oil back into the pan instead of just holding it & requiring constant draining.
http://www.emotors.ca/articles/128.aspx (http://www.emotors.ca/articles/128.aspx)
When I get around to installing it i'll post a few pics.
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Good post, I'll read up thoroughly later...
I decided to try venting under the car last
summer and blocked off the plumbing into the
intake. 1.9TD / K14. The car stunck like a thousand farts.
I now tee off both back to intake and under the car
equally to prevent a runaway.
Later,
Hugh
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does nobody know what size tube i have to use for a drain on my existing seperator?
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so i have to match that size or would a 1/2" tube be large enough? do i just drill and thread a fitting anywhere on the bottom of the seperator?
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so you have 2 hoses coming from the block off plate? 1 goin to valve cover and one going to oil seperater? and then the 3rd hose is off the seperator to intake? that seems quite simple
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cool thanks libby
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I use a Racor CCV3500 for my 1.6TD. It's is plumbed in from the valve cover, like the factor vent puck, into the CCV, and it drains back to the block-off plate next to the vacuum pump. The clean air goes to the intake.
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Then again....
do these small 1.6 L VW engines barf more oil than the cummins 5.9?
I hooked up my crank case breather to the stock samurai air box. I'm not seeing a whole lot of oil. Yes there is enough to make the intake wet alright. but it isn't soaking my paper air filter.
Without the baffle over the cam shaft, or separator, yes... the cam lobes are much closer together on the VW than the Cummins so more mist will flow out the vent sitting right over the #4 lobes... the Cummins has much larger, further spaced cam lobes, and I would not be surprised if they have a nice baffle under the cover.
Spearator thread to follow...
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this is almost FAQ worthy
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Here's the separator I'll be working on in the next day or two. This one's designed to mount to left side of the van firewall, toward the front. It'll have a pair of 1/2 NPT bungs facing the rear, a drain facing down and some amount of internal baffling that I haven't quite worked out just yet. Material will be .120 6061...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/luckypabst/CatchCan-Model.jpg)
Chris