VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: NintendoKD on April 04, 2010, 09:32:34 pm
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I am in search of the very best components, for my build. I need them strong and light, and money is tight, but I dont want lo quality. I am sending off my aaz heads soon as well as my pump and I still need some injectors to send off to Giles, for modification. I am also sending off my crank to be lightened and knife edged/strengthened. I literally need the best components available such as:
http://www.maxspeedingrods.com/parts/rods%20items/vw&audi/VW%20Golf%20Turbo%20Diesel%201.6%20Connecting%20Rods%20Conrods%20Rod%20Pleuel.htm (http://www.maxspeedingrods.com/parts/rods%20items/vw&audi/VW%20Golf%20Turbo%20Diesel%201.6%20Connecting%20Rods%20Conrods%20Rod%20Pleuel.htm)
found these searching about on ebay in europe, and as much as I don't want to order abroad, I want to stay as cheap on shipping/customs as possible. Anyone know where I can get some other wicked strong go-fast parts/services? I am currently looking to ask GB about his ceramic coating,so when everything gets back I can have it all ceramic coated. Or actually have the inside of the precup cavities coated to prevent heat transmission into the head, as well as having the outside of the precups treated "non-combustion chamber faces" I want the very best to go into this engine. I also am looking into using a dry sump system and modifying the oil pan "more to come soon" I want to use a custom made hybrid vnt turbo by combining two already great turbos from europe. I undersand that my particular venture will be pricey, but I wanted to get everyones input so I can compile a list of great stuff to add for the build. I finally got that check for my totaled car so bring it on, and have some fun with this one guys. I am having a bit of trouble finding beefy engine components that will work for my special engine. I also need an intake that will be good to 300 horses, and about 7500 rpms, custom one-off maybe. "maybe, what I really need is a sponsor ::)" Basically I want to build the baddest IDI on the whole "removed by mod" planet ;D I am still working on custom made ceramic swirl chambers as well, in case someone is interested. ;)
thanks,
Kevin
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The connecting rod is considered the single most stressed component of the engine. Personally, I wouldn't trust Chinese made rods. I'd get Pauter rods (made in California) for ~$800 and never have to worry about it again. Here's a link to a price list.http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/vw-rods.html (http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/vw-rods.html)
I would also look at swain-tech coatings.
I didn't see what kind of engine (1.6 or 1.9) you are building. I'm guessing a 1.6 with 1.9 head? Get some lightweight hydraulic lifters from 034 Motorsport. Also get TI retainers and high pressure springs (especially since you'll probably be running 50 lbs. of boost at 7000+ RPMs and you want those intake valves closed ASAP).
If I were you, I'd start with a PD-150 intake manifold and put your time and money into other things until the intake becomes the bottleneck again. Look on TDI club to see how much power those guys are making with the PD-150 manifold. Last time I looked, it was around 250HP, but that was a couple of years ago.
You'll probably also want to run water/methanol injection to keep EGTs lower since you'll be on the verge heat wise. The methanol will also help contribute to the fueling issues (lack of) you will presumably have.
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Very ambitious there.
I assume you have reviewed all the other previous high HP builds on here? (the Finnish guys [i think they are Finnish?]
they have somewhat disturbing outcomes...
it's near impossible to hold the head to the block after 250 hp from what i've read.
on a more possitive and constructive note in order to achieve this i think you will need
a LARGE intercooler
oil cooling for that turbo
possibly custom made exhaust headers to flow better & faster than the stock manifolds available.
a LOT of porting on that AAZ head
giles pump & injectors
a drag (pucked) clutch rated for some hefty numbers & possibly a transmission upgrade but i dunno much about transmissions
a plenum style intake ORR that massive one theman53 has
i would force air in through louvres on the hood or some sort of hood scoop to help the big turbo you are going to need to spool up
arp head studs, oil pump bolts & con rod bolts (obviously)
steam holes drilled into your 1.6 block will help you out (if you are using a 1.6 block)
the appropriate gauges of course. EGT, oil temp & pressure and maybe a more accurate/reliable coolant temp gauge
and water injection on WOT because you want more fuel than boost
i'd keep the boost at or below 30 psi and just throw enormous amounts of diesel at it.
possibly have cetane enriched diesel as well [additive].
that's what i would do if money wasn't an issue.
Edit: money or reliability
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I am in search of the very best components, for my build. I need them strong and light, and money is tight, but I dont want lo quality. I am sending off my aaz heads soon as well as my pump and I still need some injectors to send off to Giles, for modification. I am also sending off my crank to be lightened and knife edged/strengthened. I literally need the best components available such as:
http://www.maxspeedingrods.com/parts/rods%20items/vw&audi/VW%20Golf%20Turbo%20Diesel%201.6%20Connecting%20Rods%20Conrods%20Rod%20Pleuel.htm (http://www.maxspeedingrods.com/parts/rods%20items/vw&audi/VW%20Golf%20Turbo%20Diesel%201.6%20Connecting%20Rods%20Conrods%20Rod%20Pleuel.htm)
found these searching about on ebay in europe, and as much as I don't want to order abroad, I want to stay as cheap on shipping/customs as possible. Anyone know where I can get some other wicked strong go-fast parts/services? I am currently looking to ask GB about his ceramic coating,so when everything gets back I can have it all ceramic coated. Or actually have the inside of the precup cavities coated to prevent heat transmission into the head, as well as having the outside of the precups treated "non-combustion chamber faces" I want the very best to go into this engine. I also am looking into using a dry sump system and modifying the oil pan "more to come soon" I want to use a custom made hybrid vnt turbo by combining two already great turbos from europe. I undersand that my particular venture will be pricey, but I wanted to get everyones input so I can compile a list of great stuff to add for the build. I finally got that check for my totaled car so bring it on, and have some fun with this one guys. I am having a bit of trouble finding beefy engine components that will work for my special engine. I also need an intake that will be good to 300 horses, and about 7500 rpms, custom one-off maybe. "maybe, what I really need is a sponsor ::)" Basically I want to build the baddest IDI on the whole "removed by mod" planet ;D I am still working on custom made ceramic swirl chambers as well, in case someone is interested. ;)
thanks,
Kevin
strong and light, but cheap, and high quality. hmm... usually those things are never in the same sentence together. if one thonks of cheap parts, we think prothe, and generally his quality is not best. usually the good stuff commands top dollar. and 800 dollar rods dont sound cheap to me, but what do you do when you have like one option for rods?
oh yea, i will try some ceramic precups if you run a set and they dont grenade your engine. i guess even if they did, the engine could crunch up ceramic alot easier than inconel.
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I haven't had custom rods done before, but lots of sets of custom pistons.
There are several manufacturers who will do custom connecting rods here in the USA:
K1 Technologies
www.rrconnectingrods.com (http://www.rrconnectingrods.com)
I don't endorse any of the above, but I'd think you could find a USA solution in the material and design that you want, without having to resort to importing...
The cost between custom pistons and forged pistons isn't that much (in my experience) - I'd expect rods to be about the same..
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Kevin, the cups still have to be inconel but they would be ceramic coated to reflect heat as ceramic has a very high heat capacity (or is it very low? i always thought low heat capacity meant it could transfer heat easily - ie alluminum has a very low heat capacity like zero? Wikipedia will answer this.) not solid ceramic... they would shatter. think coffee mug.
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Kevin, the cups still have to be inconel but they would be ceramic coated to reflect heat as ceramic has a very high heat capacity (or is it very low? i always thought low heat capacity meant it could transfer heat easily - ie alluminum has a very low heat capacity like zero? Wikipedia will answer this.) not solid ceramic... they would shatter. think coffee mug.
not necessarily true, if they are made out of the right ceramic, and are cast and annealed properly they will handle the stress just fine.
the old izuzu diesels had ceramic all over the inside of the motor and they are possibly the longest lasting small diesel out there(probably because of all the ceramic protecting the motor from thermal stresses)
I wont say that they might not shatter(because they might get made wrong, I dont know) but they may just work perfectly.
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No think ceramic like 3M Cubitron abrasive grain. It is a ceramic and harder than a woodpeckers lips. It will wear, but not like aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, or alumina zirconium. The cubitron is made to a certain spec. though.
As long as Kevin uses the right blend and fires it well all should be fine.
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Cheap Fast Reliable
You can only pick two.
Horsepower costs money, how fast can you afford to go?
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there is an amount of money you can replace with time.
so if you can afford to do lots of the work yourself(spending time instead of money) you can have fast, reliable, and affordable
this is of course limited by your abilities to fabricate/machine/etc...
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there is an amount of money you can replace with time.
so if you can afford to do lots of the work yourself(spending time instead of money) you can have fast, reliable, and affordable
this is of course limited by your abilities to fabricate/machine/etc...
Totally back this up :P
my work has been reliable so far. It's been what i haven't touched that hasn't been reliable. I had no money but heaps of time and i built a decent engine with slim to no cash but with many many hours of time.
asking these guys for help and figuring out the nitty gritty for most of it. Learning how to do things like install rings without breaking them, how to port a head & intake and so it goes on...
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And i agree,
"the old izuzu diesels had ceramic all over the inside of the motor and they are possibly the longest lasting small diesel out there(probably because of all the ceramic protecting the motor from thermal stresses)"
but are you saying it was ceramic coated or were the components solid ceramic???
all i can see in my head is like ... tiles and mugs... :P
coating i can see being very benificial. I guess there are types and blends of ceramics i'm not aware of.
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many of the parts are solid ceramic, the piston tops have a thick(like 1/4") slab of ceramic on them, and the pre-chambers I believe are made entirely out of ceramic.
the ceramic you are thinking about(and most that we come in contact with in our daily lives) is very low quality, it does a good job at what is built for though.
the ceramic used in automotive/aeronautic applications, however, is very different.
it is very dense and hard. depending on the conditions it is built for it can have very high resistance to heat/wear/etc... and is often tailored to have the same expansion rate as the materials around it so that it can be bonded to them without falling off when heated/cooled.
I have a digitally controlled kiln that I used to use for glass work, and I am looking into making ceramic piston tops, but am having some issues sourcing the ceramic materials to cast with...
-Owen
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it's near impossible to hold the head to the block after 250 hp from what i've read.
you can go higher than 250whp if you machine the pistons for lower CR. I have over sized valves and a huge race cam coming for ve engines that should help out quite a bit. If you really want to build something up get an ALh or AHU block and start with that. Add your mechanical pump to it. The blocks are beefier, the engine have more meat in the pistons, and they are becoming easier to find. Let me know if you need anything specific, I have quite a bit of spare parts I could be persuaded to get rid of.... :)
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it's near impossible to hold the head to the block after 250 hp from what i've read.
you can go higher than 250whp if you machine the pistons for lower CR. I have over sized valves and a huge race cam coming for ve engines that should help out quite a bit. If you really want to build something up get an ALh or AHU block and start with that. Add your mechanical pump to it. The blocks are beefier, the engine have more meat in the pistons, and they are becoming easier to find. Let me know if you need anything specific, I have quite a bit of spare parts I could be persuaded to get rid of.... :)
you, are officially a dumb ass. you cant run a TDI block with an IDI head on it. it wont work. if you swap out to idi pistons tho, it would work fine, but then you just have a normal AAZ. and you cant run a HUGE RACE CAM in a diesel. you will bend the valves. dave cross built performance cams for a while, and they werent worth the hassle apparently, because he has not made them for quite some time. and you cant just bolt a mechanical pump on a tdi and have a Mtdi... so, lets see pics of this engine you built with a TDI block and an idi head? with the race cam? and oversize valves?
either your gonna make me look like an ass, or im gonna make you look like an ass. i really hope you post up some 300 horse Vw diesel build pics. every other guy that came on here claiming over 250 out of an IDI never proved it with any hard evidence.
PICTURES OR IT NEVER HAPPENED! lol
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???Kevin / roids::)
I really do not see what your problem is; I think maybe it is something that I was unclear about. I was stating for the guy to use a full tdi block, pistons, head and use the fuel system from an IDI. That gives you the ability to have the benifits of higher lift cams, larger valves, bigger pistons, and stronger blocks. That and you do not need to modify an electronic tdi fuel pump to get things to work. I would love to see your info on why this would not work?
Secondly, Dave Cross, (passenger performance) offered up for a short time a REGRIND cam that boosted performance a little bit, but due to its nature it reduced the base circle of the cam. The cams I have are custom billets designed for TDI engines with 260/260 11mm lift specs, but should fit with some piston clearances in a idi engine ( I have yet to confirm this on engine but did confirm it in a idi head).
Finally, your not very polite even IF I made mistakes. Plus, If you are not careful you might scare away someone that may know something more than you might (even if thats not me).
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o229/shortysclimbin/project%20weight%20loss/DSC_3984.jpg)
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ok, well maybe you might have something going there. either way tho. you dont just bolt a mechanical fuel pump on a TDI. sorry to rain on your parade. sure, it can be done, but its not easy or a bolt on affair. i still want to see dyno sheets for your 250+ horsepower engine. and really, why are you bragging up TDI engines in the IDI section? thats why everything was so un-clear. there is a TDI section for TDI engines, so we dont get a huge mix up like this.
oh yea, i dont have a problem, its just that most people that come on here making claims like you, have absolutely no hard evidence to back anything up.
another thing, we cant really cut valve reliefs in the tops of our IDI piston tops. it will weaken the piston too much probably. our IDI engines are a completely different animal from the TDI's you work on.
sorry for attacking you, but you came into the IDI page, and started telling someone about using a TDI block to make better power. we kinda try not to discuss too much TDI stuff on the IDI page, because people get confused and things like this happen. either way tho, dont take it to heart too much, i was mostly being sarcastic on that first post. and sorry i called you a dumb ass. i guess it was kinda me being a dumb ass cause i couldnt understand what you were trying to say. i thought you claimed to have bolted an IDI head on a TDI block and made it run. thats why i called bull$#!t on it.
another thing, if you can make custom cams like you say, make one up for an idi engine, people from this forum would buy them if you could actually make a cam that made a noticeable difference over stock and didnt cost an arm and a leg to buy one.
tell me some more about the cam you made. any overlap or anything like that?
another thing, i really dig the mono wiper conv you did to your car.
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Yuppers, we're all here to learn from each other... let's 86 phrases like "dumb ass" please and thanks.. unless you are referring to me and the extra holes I just "accidentally" carved in my fresh drywall. ;)
A wise man wrote "seek first to understand"... if something seems a bit wonky let's start with the assumption that we're not on the same page.
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wow, thats a first...
I said that im SORRY. that kinda amazes me.
and yea, we were on 2 different pages here. not now tho...
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another thing, we cant really cut valve reliefs in the tops of our IDI piston tops. it will weaken the piston too much probably.
if you remember Aki machined the whole top off a set of AAZ pistons and then cut valve reliefs in them.
I think there should not be too much issue cutting some off our piston tops, there really is a fair amount of meat on them(they withstand crashing into a valve pretty well)
I too would be interested in a hot cam for the IDI.
I plan on playing around a little with some conservative gasser cams and see what happens...
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Kevin,
I would be interested in what makes the pump not bolt on. I am assuming you mean the mounting? I have a Cummings 12mm pump that I retrofitet idi parts on that I was planning on putting on a very interesting engine setup for a 4 runner. Any info would be great... You see to me bolt up means something my welder, plasma cutter, and mill might have to touch ;). plus making a pump fit is easier to me than machining 4 pistons to +- .05cc.
truckinwagen, I have a few mild gas cams I started with that I might be willing to get rid of. If you also have a spare engine I would be able to work with you on getting a set of pistons sorted out and maybe a cam. PM me if you want more details. I started out with a pp idi cam in my tdi, then I went to a few gasser cams, and then I went all out and custom made some billets.
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Kevin,
I would be interested in what makes the pump not bolt on. I am assuming you mean the mounting? I have a Cummings 12mm pump that I retrofitet idi parts on that I was planning on putting on a very interesting engine setup for a 4 runner. Any info would be great... You see to me bolt up means something my welder, plasma cutter, and mill might have to touch ;). plus making a pump fit is easier to me than machining 4 pistons to +- .05cc.
truckinwagen, I have a few mild gas cams I started with that I might be willing to get rid of. If you also have a spare engine I would be able to work with you on getting a set of pistons sorted out and maybe a cam. PM me if you want more details. I started out with a pp idi cam in my tdi, then I went to a few gasser cams, and then I went all out and custom made some billets.
do a search on mTdi, so far, there is no such pump that anyone has found that is a bolt on and run pump. it will bolt on the engine and hook up to everything just fine, but it will run like complete crap. maybe not at all. people take IDI pumps, and TDI heads, with a few parts from each pump, sometimes people can get a running Mtdi pump. there are no timing specs for mtdi pumps, just rough areas that they run at. nothing set in stone tho. mtdi pumps are kinda in a grey area it seems like. no one really has any definitive ways on how to build a proper mechanical pump. owen used a cummins pump on his IDI just fine. i dont know why you couldnt use a cummins or volvo pump for the same purpose on a DI engine tho. 4 cylinder volvo marine engines use VE pumps with a 17mm shaft and an 11 or 12mm head in them. those engines will turn 3600 - 4000 in gear depending on what boat they were in. and that was with stock government. i never tore into one tho as to see what type of governor it had, but im assuming it was probably un caged since it was a marine engine, and vws are the only caged governor ive seen, but that dont mean much, i havent personally had to dive into any pump besides a VW pump.
and come to think of it owen, wasnt aki using custom pistons tho? i guess you are right about the pistons being tough enough to mangle valves.
and i really think you should come up with some sort of custom grind for our engines. most of us cant afford to mod a TDI, let alone afford to buy an engine. tdi's are like 1500 bucks minimum. most of us barely have 1500 bucks in our whole build, and that includes the cost of the car. lol.
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from the pics Aki posted they were stock AAZ pistons and he turned the top off on a lathe so they were flat, then he machined valve pockets and a channel for combustion gasses.
I have something great happening to me, I have a new car with a motor, and I have a place to keep my old car/motor, so I will have a motor that I can experiment on, as I don;t have to worry about it as my DD.
the test motor has mechanical lifters though, nad my new car has hydraulic... so things may not translate over perfectly.
I have a late ABA cam that looks like a good fit, it has -7* valve overlap, modest duration, and much better lift than the diesel cam. it is a hydro cam, but I planned on shimming under the lifter buckets to make up for the difference in base circle from the mech/hydro diff.
that way I could install it, see if it clears the pistons(even clearance them if needed) and see how it runs.
then if all is well, I could toss it into my DD motor knowing what all needs to be done, etc...
for a mech lifter engine, the euro K-grind camshaft looks like a good fit, but I dont have one to confirm that(TT sells them for like $50 though)
I plan on having an adapter made up for the cam nose so a diesel sprocket can be installed on a gasser cam so I can try a few out.
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oh, and the cummins pump I am using is built for a DI motor, so it should run a TDI just fine.
I already figured out the governor for more RPM, so other than that, I am not sure what would need to be done to it to run an M-TDI
I do have plans at some point to get my grubby little mitts on an ALH to find out.
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whats different about the gasser cam nose? i know what a diesel one looks like, just never had a gas cam gear off yet.
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gasser cam nose is identical to an IM shaft nose
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Cheap Fast Reliable
You can only pick two.
Horsepower costs money, how fast can you afford to go?
this was quoted fom many places, to include another forum I moonlight on, www.spyderchat.com (http://www.spyderchat.com) which is why I'm putting this engine in my 2400 lb spyder I am well versd in the quest for power, from an enthusiasts perspective, I am just looking for the thriftiest way "if there are two vendors that have wicked rods I want the best price between the two" his mostly applies to people offerying vendor advice for components. And, yes, to answer your question, I am quite ambitious, my choices would be fast and reliable...... ok, REALLY FAST, and semi-reliable, LOL! :D ::)
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there is an amount of money you can replace with time.
so if you can afford to do lots of the work yourself(spending time instead of money) you can have fast, reliable, and affordable
this is of course limited by your abilities to fabricate/machine/etc...
Totally back this up :P
my work has been reliable so far. It's been what i haven't touched that hasn't been reliable. I had no money but heaps of time and i built a decent engine with slim to no cash but with many many hours of time.
asking these guys for help and figuring out the nitty gritty for most of it. Learning how to do things like install rings without breaking them, how to port a head & intake and so it goes on...
bam, hit the nail on the head, got it there. I am doin most of the work myself, just lack a lot of the resources to do so "machining, and I am in the middle of the desert you know
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I am using mech lifters and a modded mech cam, just don't know who can grind it for me :-[ and FYI it is an aaz head with an old, and I mean OLD Mech 1.6 turbo block without the oil return in the block. I plan to drill the steam holes and use an engine/mains girdle along with a dry sump pan.