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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Smokey Eddy on March 18, 2010, 02:55:24 pm
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Soooo
its been quite a while since i put my 1.9 head on my 1.6td and i've been driving around with a huge FMIC for about 3-4 months.
i figured it was time to play with the pump a bit more.
I screwed the LDA pin push screw (the one accessible from the very top) as far down as it would go. I then turned the idle back as far as it would go, then turned the fuel screw IN until it was idling just below was i deemed to be irritatingly high. I then moved my throttle cable back about three notches and increased the max throttle setting.
Prior to this my T3 would MAX output EXACTLY 24 psi at WOT through most of the rpm range and i never got EGT's over 1,000 unless i was really bogging it at too low RPM.
Now when i stomp it - the black cloud is incredible even with my dual side exhaust and it will PIN, yes PIN, my 30 psi gauge and reach 10psi at what i would imagine 1,500rpm to be at WOT and 20+ psi after about 2,500... it then rockets up past 30 and the tire hop/spin/squeel is somthing worth mentioning. I know am 100% sure it's faster than my 2000 2 door TDI golf.
UNFORTUNATELY the increase in torque does NOT match well with my stock and likely very old clutch. I was forced to turn the fueling back down to prevent accidentally stepping on it - i'd hate for friction material to fly out of that bell housing.
I need a replacement/upgrade asap.
ANY info is greatly appreciated. such as TDI? what size? are there different ones? how many stages? i read that the 16v GTI clutch wont suffice because of the torque involved with our train-like engines? and SO ON.
thanks so much and once the clutch is replaced and holding out i PROMISE a dyno video + print out.
oh ps, my last air care was immediately after the head replacement exactly a year ago and i scored a 13.6% opacity rating - which i think means that's the % of exhaust that is visible carbon soot.
This time around with my IC i scored a 5.9%!!!
the maximum allowable is 30%.
But what really doesn't make sense is according to them my car gets 7.1L/100km. Which is 33.1288146 miles per gallon... which i know for a fact is NOT true because the math is simply wrong. I drove 600 km (mountain highway too) on less than 35L of diesel which is at least 40mpg.
edit: the increase in power i think i can attribute to the increase in fuel but the clutch doesn't slip until the boost hits above 25psi... it feels like it pulls super hard at low speeds and accelerates - giving that false sense of huge power. But once i get up to about 90km/hr and floor it in 3rd it will slip the clutch. Same with 4th gear at any speed over 100km/hr at WOT... never tried 5th, i didn't figure it was worth checking seeing as i know how damaging clutch slippage is. I'm sure my pressure plate is all blue now.
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you might consider a pucked clutch.
you can get them from clutchnet.
starting out is a little harsher, but you can get used to it, and it will hold whatever you throw at it
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http://www.sr20-forum.com/product-reviews/14457-clutchnet-clutches-thumbs-way-down.html (http://www.sr20-forum.com/product-reviews/14457-clutchnet-clutches-thumbs-way-down.html)
?
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How many "stages" do i want?
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I have never heard any stories like that personally, he probably dropped the clutch hard at 6000RPM (with huge power) to get it to do that.
the other place you can go(depending what diameter flywheel you are running) is Bildon Motorsport.
I am running their four puck sprung center, and love it.
-Owen
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Interesting. What numbers and you pushing through it? do you know?
and by four puck - is that the number of stages?
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How about these then?
Pressure Plate (http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=20984&cat=0&page=1)
Clutch Disk Pucked thing (http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=15129&cat=0&page=1)
The loonie is really good right now so I'd love some input from anyone if they're reading and think this is a good replacement option.
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no I mean pucked, like this:
(http://www.bildon.com/catalog/Admin/photos/large/6PSprung.jpg)
the fewer number of pucks, the more aggressive it will be, holding more power, and being harsher.
you can get six, four and three puck clutches.
I went with a four because I plan on putting lots of torque at low RPM's through it(it held everything the supercharged motor would put out, and will take lots more)
I would recommend a six puck for a daily driven car, as the four puck is a little hard to keep from chirping the tires with.
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you dont need to match the pressure plate to the clutch disc.
a higher rate pressure plate will hold more power, but will also put extra load on the thrust bearing in your motor.
the beauty of the pucked clutch is that it will hold more without needing more pressure from the pressure plate.
a solid center clutch will do damage to the gears in the transmission over time, for a street driven car, a sprung center is preferable.
I would get a six puck sprung center disc, and run it with the stock pressure plate/flywheel.
-Owen
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Oooooooooooh okay okay okay okay
So just order the "red" 6 puck centre disk?
looks like all the red ones are solid, so ... a "hi-performance" one then... lets see if that's sprung and not solid.
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before you go too far, this is a good read.
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/about/clutchtech.cfm (http://www.bildon.com/catalog/about/clutchtech.cfm)
lots of info on clutch and pressure plates.
should help you make the right decision.
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Owen, thanks so much you've been so helpful. I'll give that a read for sure after work. as it stands right now im leaning on this one here. (http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=17171&cat=0&page=1)...
the price is right, highest performance, sprung, pucked and you like the 4 puck so i think i'll go 4 too... the 6 puck is significantly more expensive. 140 vs 170.
but i have the coin to go 6 puck if you really think a 4 would live a short life and i don't need the added power it will handle.
this car IS my DD so i don't mind paying $200 for a cluth that will last another 40-50,000km of city, but mostly highway, driving.
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Quoted from my build...
Thanks to Zuk and 53 willys for clutch recommendation. It is a clutchnet 210mm red pp with a 210mm 6 spring 6 puck red disc with the small 24 spline hub. I think it is the setup for the 8v scirocco?
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/72/l_18c4bd868f1d43edb22e68cb914958ed.jpg)
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/105/l_3eb0fe615ee0489583608a20b6f84c53.jpg)
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if you are going to go 4-puck may I suggest what I bought?
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=049.141.4P190AS&Nav=5&SubNav=54 (http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=049.141.4P190AS&Nav=5&SubNav=54)
much cheaper, very good quality, and they charged me less in shipping than it actually was.
-Owen
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Oh nice, thanks to both. I'll have to make my decision when i get home. I have a 75 minute train ride to ponder. Perhaps i'll browse on my crackberry.
thanks again
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and again, this clutch is not nice!
it will want to stall your motor, unless you use very little throttle(backwards I know)
I find it best to start easy, and once the clutch is engaged you can get on it hard, but high RPM slipping clutch starts are not easy with it.
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The deal with mine was I had bought a 210mm flywheel, so I got about a 1/4" bigger clutch. same as 53 and zuk.
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I am running a 200mm flywheel.
the 190 clutch will work fine in a 200 or 210 too.
-Owen
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Yeah I was just saying in case he looked and thought of ordering and then it didn't work since he probably has a 200 or 190 flywheel. Never a bad time to upgrade. I thought too I would have it all resurfaced together to have it done at once, and couldn't without buying another flywheel.
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hill folk used a clutchnet clutch on his tdi-m good to see your making good power. i'm surprised your clutch didn't slip sooner to be honest. once it doesn't sleep your car will feel great. after i put a new clutch in my na daily rabbit i felt like i was driving a race car haha. i left it go for far too long.
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see ed, i told you a long time ago that your car should go better than it did. i knew my rabbit wasnt an accident that it would burn the tires off with little effort.
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"burn the tires off" HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
and yes i have surprised my self.
Essentially it's the same engine it just breathes a lot better (colder smoother faster more volume). Crazy how big of a differnce it makes.
Question: How can i see which tranny i have?
Do i want to find an 02A from the junk yard?
That site had very reasonable pricing. I'd be okay with buying my parts from there. But, if i can replace just the clutch disk and still have it hold together i'd obviously rather do that. I don't exactly have a "need" to replace anything else. But, like "theman53" said, I don't want to run into issues and have to buy new everything because i went too big with the clutch disk or something.
by the way, im still forever greatful for those 4 bolts you sent me for my crank sprocket.
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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT EVER BUY A SPEC CLUTCH
ive eaten 3, this was my latest on a 300bhp 1.8t
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i142/the4ork/specclutch.jpg)
i was actually thinking about this for my build which will be simlar to yours.
TT high pressure plate, and stock clutch is what i have in mind. its more about the pressure plate than the clutch material until you start getting over about 275-300ft lbs
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"burn the tires off" HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
and yes i have surprised my self.
Essentially it's the same engine it just breathes a lot better (colder smoother faster more volume). Crazy how big of a differnce it makes.
Question: How can i see which tranny i have?
Do i want to find an 02A from the junk yard?
That site had very reasonable pricing. I'd be okay with buying my parts from there. But, if i can replace just the clutch disk and still have it hold together i'd obviously rather do that. I don't exactly have a "need" to replace anything else. But, like "theman53" said, I don't want to run into issues and have to buy new everything because i went too big with the clutch disk or something.
by the way, im still forever greatful for those 4 bolts you sent me for my crank sprocket.
you need a different flywheel, shift box and cables, clutch master and slave cylinders, and the right mounts. along with a few other things im sure to swap in an O2A
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No one has mentioned the straps on the pressure plate.
I've heard of people putting double straps on them or buying a pressure plate with beefed-up straps.
Jake fspGTD ran a 190mm clutch disc and 200mm flywheel. Makes sense, less rotating mass.
Does the 210 flywheel,
being from a gasser,
have the right timing marks?
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so am i alright buying that clutch disk and only that clutch disk? it will replace the stock one?
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No one has mentioned the straps on the pressure plate.
I've heard of people putting double straps on them or buying a pressure plate with beefed-up straps.
Jake fspGTD ran a 190mm clutch disc and 200mm flywheel. Makes sense, less rotating mass.
Does the 210 flywheel,
being from a gasser,
have the right timing marks?
i did without mentioning it, the Techtonics (TT) pressure plate i mentioned above has extra straps ;)
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so am i alright buying that clutch disk and only that clutch disk? it will replace the stock one?
clutch friction material will hardly make a difference without extra clamping pressure, i.e pressure plate
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No one has mentioned the straps on the pressure plate.
I've heard of people putting double straps on them or buying a pressure plate with beefed-up straps.
Jake fspGTD ran a 190mm clutch disc and 200mm flywheel. Makes sense, less rotating mass.
Does the 210 flywheel,
being from a gasser,
have the right timing marks?
no, you have to make your own timing marks. that gasser wheel made my engine EXTREMELY hard to time, until i took and actually marked tdc.
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so am i alright buying that clutch disk and only that clutch disk? it will replace the stock one?
clutch friction material will hardly make a difference without extra clamping pressure, i.e pressure plate
if you took a centerforce DFX or a red clutch net disk, and put it with a stock 8v PP, it would be retarded. you would be wasting your disk. you need atleast a 16v pressure plate, at very minimum. i have one on my 1.5 engine, and its definitely firmer than my factory 8v pressure plates. both in how it engages the clutch, and the amount of pressure taken to depress the clutch. 16v PP, 8v gas FW, and some sort of sprung center disk. our engines dont have smooth enough power for a solid disk in my opinion. i would rather be nice to my trans, cause i hate swapping them.
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clutch friction material will hardly make a difference without extra clamping pressure, i.e pressure plate
while clutch material alone does not make much difference without more clamping force, a pucked clutch does.
by having less surface area the effective clamping force on it is higher even with the stock pressure plate(the same force on a smaller surface= more PSI)
I am a fan of pucked clutches in applications where stock is not sufficient because they hold better without requiring the added stress on the thrust bearing of a higher tension pressure plate.
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i dont like how they are like an on/off button tho.
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i'd be more worried about the thrust plate than the throw out bearing on an 020. throw out bearings are cake to change
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i'd be more worried about the thrust plate than the throw out bearing on an 020. throw out bearings are cake to change
I think he's talking about the thrust bearings in the engine, when you push the clutch padal the end of the crankshaft is also being pushed on pretty hard.
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Dear god!
=( who do i listen to?
Amen
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I originally bought a 4-puck for my AAZ. It (the flywheel) lasted a single summer and it was the most torturous setup I've ever driven. It was like a switch (ON or OFF). There was no way to get a smooth start and it finally wore out the flywheel. I finally swapped it out for a Stage 2 ACT setup and after over a year driving, Icouldn't be happier. I'm making 220 ft lbs and the clutch holds it well, while allowing smooth starts.
A puck-type clutch is a drag race clutch IMHO.
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I originally bought a 4-puck for my AAZ. It (the flywheel) lasted a single summer and it was the most torturous setup I've ever driven. It was like a switch (ON or OFF). There was no way to get a smooth start and it finally wore out the flywheel. I finally swapped it out for a Stage 2 ACT setup and after over a year driving, Icouldn't be happier. I'm making 220 ft lbs and the clutch holds it well, while allowing smooth starts.
A puck-type clutch is a drag race clutch IMHO.
What about a 6 puck disk?
my pressure plate is quite soft. I can easily push the pedal to the floor. its comfortable but perhaps that's a bad thing.
my bud just put a new clutch set up in his mustang and you have to like ... grip the steering wheel and pull your self towards the floor to get the pedal to go down.
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The pressure plate plays a major part. You gotta replace them as a set, and the pressure plate must have more clamping force.
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not necessarily, the smaller contact area of the pucked clutch means that there is more pressure per square inch, allowing greater holding power without needing a heavier pressure plate.
they were originally designed for drag racing where they already have the heaviest PP they can put on, and needed more holding power.
if you put a pucked clutch in with a stock PP you will get more holding power without adding load to the thrust bearing in the motor.
I have a four puck with a stock PP, and while it is not as easy to drive as a stock clutch, it is certainly not that hard to drive.
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so do you need to upgrade to a 210mm flywheel to use any of the clutchnet 8v clutch parts.
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nope, clutchnet makes 190 and 200mm too.
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Alright, im thinking i'll go just a 190mm 6 puck by it's self from clutchnet... what do you reckon truckinwagen?
More lbs/in^2 clamping force but same easy to use pedal movement + an extra $150 still in my wallet.
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thats what I would do.
if I had to do it again I would go with a six puck, the only reason I went four is because I was hurting for cash and it was such a good deal.
not that I really regret it though.
-Owen
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Alright wicked. Perhaps I'll do a write up on the swap. Haven't contributed in a while...
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You may want to contact a guy called BleachedBora from tdiclub. He carries SouthBend clutches for good prices and a lot of guys run them on their modded tdi's with good results.
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You may want to contact a guy called BleachedBora from tdiclub. He carries SouthBend clutches for good prices and a lot of guys run them on their modded tdi's with good results.
thanks for the info rallydiesel. =)
However, his pricing is slightly out of reach. I'm happy with clutchnet i think.
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Yeah, I just looked at idparts.com. Over $400 for stage 3. But its good for over 425 lbs.ft.!!! Although stage 1 is $299 and holds 330 lbs.ft. But then you could just go to a VR6 clutch which should be good for around 300 lbs.ft.
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What type of flywheel do you have? The backwards stock 1.6 type?
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hmph. well whats his nuts said he was pushing 220 out of an AAZ and i doubt im there with my little 1.6 so i am not worried about it.
What type of flywheel do you have? The backwards stock 1.6 type?
I have no idea... im going to assume it's never been tampered with and if it has it was a straight swap from a junk yard car.
Does this make sense? I was going 80 in the rain and i was in third, sort of ... accelerating quickly, you know? and i put my foot to the floor and the speedo jumped to 100. Is there any chance my drive shafts are slipping inside the transmission?
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If your speedo jumped then your clutch wasn't slipping.
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Well the speedo doesn't always jump. it's obvious when the clutch slips... the car slows down, the rpm just SKY rockets and it usually happens on the low end, going up steep hills and what have you. I can't do burn outs anymore the clutch just slips. Even in the wet it won't really do it that readily. Not very grabby at all... very sponge like. Spelling? sponge... spongue
sponge bob square pants
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I didn't know Bora stocked spec. I was quoted $175/usd from dxd motors for a southbend 4 puck sprung and hd pressureplate.
I have a spec 6 puck here. It looks beefy, only thing that worries me is the small rivets holding the material on. Straps are nice, springs look good. It;s the stage 3.1 from 032 motorsports - supposed to be good for 400ft/lbs.
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I got the 020 6 puck sprung drag clutch kit from Bildon Motor Sport. (http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=BMS.141.121K&Nav=5&SubNav=54) should ship shortly. The clutch, pressure plate and a tool were $342 shipped.
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I got the 020 6 puck sprung drag clutch kit from Bildon Motor Sport. (http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=BMS.141.121K&Nav=5&SubNav=54) should ship shortly. The clutch, pressure plate and a tool were $342 shipped.
I ordered a kit from bildon about a month ago and havnt heard from them yet, despite them having debited my CC $500 AUD.
Anyone else having trouble contacting them? They havnt replied to my emails.... I would call them on the phone but time difference is the killer.
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Ooooo dear... =( =\
I'll call them tomorrow.
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Ooooo dear... =( =\
I'll call them tomorrow.
Let me know what they say. I am really in need of the parts too.
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It just rang and rang and rang ...
They are three hours ahead of me so it would have been 2:40pm. Is it safe for one to assume this would be normal business hours?
I think it's time to contact authorities in your case. im going to give them three days. unless the money is never withdrawn from my CC account.
Edit: just checked; the money was withdrawn from my account at the "time of sale".
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ahh crap.
This is bad news.
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Is anybody near Pittsburgh able to drop in and see if they are open still?
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this from their site:
Phones:
Do to a slowdown in domestic business we have been forced to reprioritize. As a result we no longer are taking phone calls on a regular basis. Please email us and we will respond quickly to your inquiry.
We apologize for this inconvenience and are working to grow Bildon Motorsport to the point where a full time customer service staff is employed.
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this from their site:
Phones:
Do to a slowdown in domestic business we have been forced to reprioritize. As a result we no longer are taking phone calls on a regular basis. Please email us and we will respond quickly to your inquiry.
We apologize for this inconvenience and are working to grow Bildon Motorsport to the point where a full time customer service staff is employed.
I did notice this but you could have a phone line ANYWHERE and have someone answer simple shipping questions for christ's sake. "Email only" customer service is pretty poor. There wasn't even an answering machine or voice mail - nothing...
The Bildon.com forum has been dead since 2008...
Truckinwagen says he did business with them no more than 4 months ago...
Is anybody near Pittsburgh able to drop in and see if they are open still?
I would really appreciate this and im suer gldgti would too...
hope to christ this doesn't turn into a law suit. Good grief charlie brown...
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according to http://myworld.ebay.com/bildonmotorsport/ (http://myworld.ebay.com/bildonmotorsport/) they did some buisness late last month - March 30 going by feedback...
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why are they not getting back to you i wonder? Pm me your name and contact info and if i get a hold of them i'll bring you to their attention.
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pm sent
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Finally got word from bildon, say clutch should ship this week. I'm just glad to hear from them.
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That is great!
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holy crap thats fantastic. Did they say why they were so insanely late?
they haven't contacted me. I hope they don't take a month to talk to me + a week to send my clutch! jesus! I need it in less than three weeks.
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Said they were out of stock and waiting on a shipment.
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Hmm. would have been nice to hear at least something from them though...