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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ein bora on February 23, 2010, 04:42:47 am

Title: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: ein bora on February 23, 2010, 04:42:47 am
How does the K24 compare to the K14 performance wise?? Presently I have the K14 but with a seized wastegate, I like the way it quickly spools and was wondering how the Borg Warner K24 or Garrett T-3 would compare.
Thanks.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on February 23, 2010, 08:56:47 am
how would it compare to a K14? it wouldnt..
they are 2 completely different animals.
the K24 is about the same as a T3. slow spooling and pretty laggy. but there is potential for alot more boost in the upper RPM range. while your K14 will be all out of boost well before wide open throttle.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: GEE-BEE on February 23, 2010, 11:03:13 am
Talk with jerry at GPOPSHOP.COM for your options

OHC exchange 395.00

GB

I would get a K14 if I was running your DP
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: ein bora on February 23, 2010, 12:08:30 pm
With the giles pump I can easily exceed 20psi, however I do like the fast spool of the K14. Is there nothing out there that is an equivalent to the spool of the K14 but can handle 20 - 25psi??

And yes - it's a aaz. Thanks.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: GEE-BEE on February 23, 2010, 12:33:03 pm
K04/K03 HYBRID $$

That's what I did

GB
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: blackdogvan on February 23, 2010, 01:18:04 pm
K04/K03 HYBRID $$

That's what I did

GB

Careful, you're talking a K03 cold side & K04 hotside. The upgrade K03 based hybrid most vendors sell is a Ko3 Hotside & K04 compressor wheel machined to fit the K03 coldside. Less lag & more boost on the K03 hotside option with more backpressure at high RPM (+3500). K03 coldside hybrid would be good for stock boost pressure with less restriction at high rpm & more lag? My personal feeling on the K03 cold side hybrid is its made from the parts no one wants from the proper K03 hybrid builds. :P
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: RabbitJockey on February 23, 2010, 01:56:14 pm
i like the k24 and t3, they don't spool super fast, but they spool fast enough and always come on when you need them to.  I think its interesting how they put that turbo on the little 1.6, it was really too big, but since it was too big it lets a lot of room for extra power with out changing anything other than fueling and boost.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: GEE-BEE on February 23, 2010, 03:02:38 pm
Mine is a KO4 Hot housing with a KO3 cold housing , ceramic coated  housings and balanced shaft/wheel's

GPOPSHOP did very nice work...

The New head  was sent to Extrude a hone for internal polishing ( internals are all matched and smooth as glass ).


My wrench just installed the head with new injectors and the Giles pump .

Next will be the PD130 that is still at extrude a hone and it will be installed with a new I.C.

GB
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: ein bora on February 23, 2010, 04:08:10 pm
Hard to understand that there's nothing else out there that would work similar or better than the K14.
Regarding the VNT20 - can a VNT be installed on a IDI?

Thanks.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: blackdogvan on February 23, 2010, 04:19:04 pm
Hmmm.... Now who do I know with a VNT20 for sale... o right me.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on February 24, 2010, 03:33:45 am
I have a built AAZ and we decided on the T3. I couldn't be happier.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Familydiesel on February 25, 2010, 08:09:40 am
Isn't the T2 somewhat comparable to a K14?  If not, what is the differnence?  I have a T2 on my 1.6 and am just getting ready to install it, but haven't tried it, so it is just theory at this point.  Anyone have experience with this? 

Is the aaz pump give better performance than the standard 1.6 td IP?
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: CdnVWJunkie on February 25, 2010, 10:37:21 am
I know it's not a direct comparison but I had a e-AHU with a K24 with custom 2.5" DP.  There was little to no noticeable lag.  It pulled very hard.  In a mechanical IDI I'm not sure the results would be the same.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: VelocityConservation on February 25, 2010, 08:03:26 pm
Ein Bora,

I have a k-24 on my 1.6l motor.

I have mine turned up to 15psi (not going any higher until I have a FMIC).  It is laggy under 2200 rpm, but I am also pushing the wastegate open before 3200rpm.

I have really grown to like the way it works.  If I short shift it I can keep the boost below 5psi and get 48-50mpg.  I can also wring it out and open the wastegate before 3200 rpm.

I think it would respond even better with your bigger displacement motor.

VelocityConservation
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: ein bora on February 25, 2010, 08:36:09 pm
Ended up buying a VNT20 for my build. Now that I understand the concept - I'm going to try and make the mechanical vane controller libbybapa designed.
As to my K14, today I ripped the engine out of my eurovan project - so my plans are to install it in there.
Like everyone else - lots to do, not enough time to do it in...
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Powered by Spearco on February 25, 2010, 09:50:07 pm
Um, what are you going to do with the K14  ::)  :).
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on February 26, 2010, 08:52:05 am
Isn't the T2 somewhat comparable to a K14?  If not, what is the differnence?  I have a T2 on my 1.6 and am just getting ready to install it, but haven't tried it, so it is just theory at this point.  Anyone have experience with this? 

Is the aaz pump give better performance than the standard 1.6 td IP?


the AAZ pump is not as good as the 1.6 pump in stock forms.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: ein bora on February 26, 2010, 03:13:46 pm


[/quote]

the AAZ pump is not as good as the 1.6 pump in stock forms.
[/quote]

Giles easily fixes that.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on February 26, 2010, 03:23:17 pm
Isn't the T2 somewhat comparable to a K14?  If not, what is the differnence?  I have a T2 on my 1.6 and am just getting ready to install it, but haven't tried it, so it is just theory at this point.  Anyone have experience with this? 

Is the aaz pump give better performance than the standard 1.6 td IP?


the AAZ pump is not as good as the 1.6 pump in stock forms.

I think it's every bit as good, just different. The 1.9 pump is set up for 2-stage injectors while the 1.6 pump is set up for single stage injectors. Having said that, a Giles pump is a giles pump, and Giles is the MASTER.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: bert on February 27, 2010, 10:41:41 am
i have a mk1 golf with a AAZ and a T3 with a 2.5" exhaust,man i love it,as soon as i hit 2nd gear im off,115bhp on a rolling road test,not intercooled yet,just swapped the aneroid pin for the rover pin  :P
Bert
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Familydiesel on February 27, 2010, 10:44:42 am
stewardc ,
Will the aaz pump work well on the 1.6 td without the 2 stage injectors?  Will it perform better or at least as well as the stock td IP?
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on February 27, 2010, 12:52:32 pm
stewardc ,
Will the aaz pump work well on the 1.6 td without the 2 stage injectors?  Will it perform better or at least as well as the stock td IP?

people say that the 1.6 pump works best in stock form. but then you get the random other person that will say that the AAZ pump is better. the aaz pump has a higher lift cam plate, but the LDA is basically there for looks. a 1.6 ip has a smaller cam plate, but the LDA definitely kicks ass on the stock 1.6 pumps. both pumps have their pros and cons really.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on February 27, 2010, 02:09:03 pm
stewardc ,
Will the aaz pump work well on the 1.6 td without the 2 stage injectors?  Will it perform better or at least as well as the stock td IP?

I would use a 1.6 pump if you are going to keep it basically stock.

I would NOT have used a VNT turbo, no matter what anyone says. Keep it simple is a good motto with these engines.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on February 28, 2010, 08:18:49 am
stewardc ,
Will the aaz pump work well on the 1.6 td without the 2 stage injectors?  Will it perform better or at least as well as the stock td IP?

I would use a 1.6 pump if you are going to keep it basically stock.

I would NOT have used a VNT turbo, no matter what anyone says. Keep it simple is a good motto with these engines.

im with ya on this one buddy, i know from experience how hard it is to install one properly.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on February 28, 2010, 10:07:25 am
im with ya on this one buddy, i know from experience how hard it is to install one properly.

I reaslly don't think there is a way to install it properly without the electronics it was designed for.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on February 28, 2010, 10:28:10 am
 ;D ;D ;D

I wondered how many posts it would take.....
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: GEE-BEE on February 28, 2010, 02:57:46 pm
VNT works well on my 2008 997TT

22 psi , 685 hp

It's all wheel drive of course...

Tubi exhaust and headers with ECU flash

My caddy still gets the most thumb's up !
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Powered by Spearco on February 28, 2010, 08:47:18 pm
Yeah, come one :D!  Keep them coming. This is getting good ;D.

Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: rabbitman on February 28, 2010, 11:48:41 pm
Which three guys couldn't get it to work?  I can only think of one, Rabbitman, whose turbo never functioned properly.  That had nothing to do with the difficulty in creating a vane control.

rabbitman speaks, I've not given up yet. I've pulled it and after I get around to it I'll send it in or something and have it looked at, if it turns out to be junk I'll have it fixed unless the price is out of my range. If the test shows it to be good I'll probably retry it. Only takes part of a day to install it since I have everything made up already ;D.

I've never installed any sort of vane control, I was going to set the vanes and use fueling to control the boost but having never got hardly any boost I figured there was no point in building a controller.......

stewardc, you are being childish, bashing other peoples work is just lame, especially when you start calling them liars.

One guy can make a controller and like it, while another guy won't like it, and in that case he can either make his own how he wants/likes it, or state his opinion and then shut up.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on March 01, 2010, 08:30:16 am
However, I really am interested in what you have with a VNT that my GT on the 1.9 doesn't provide?

And, once again, a tirade without a substantial answer.

Statements such as these abound
Quote
I live at 7,000 ft of elevation and so off-boost power is reduced and turbo lag is extended.  I can't stand K24s or T3s.  I wouldn't ever put one on anything that was mine
.

All I am asking---all I have ever asked, is what would induce me to throw away my old reliable GT turbo and go VNT at sea level?

But it looks like I'll never get an answer, so, once again, sorry for the thread hijack, ;D
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: blackdogvan on March 01, 2010, 09:44:49 am
 
SCROLLING TEXT??? Finally something cool from this thread!!
 

GEEZ thats distracting tho...


Trolling for an arguement should be done on the vortex... not here.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on March 01, 2010, 11:24:19 am
I really appreciate your willingness to imitate a semi-conscious buffoon for the amusement of myself and the others on this forum.  You're right, I can't resist that degree of tomfoolery.  Thanks for the laugh!   ;D

Buddy, you've gotta learn to lighten up.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: macka on March 01, 2010, 11:58:34 am
OK so it really comes down to your application. In stock form a T2 or K14 would be adequate, however once you start changing things its all down to your choice of how you want the car to perform for you. Its going to be a lot of research, more then one question, and a bit of tuning it yourself. I hope other people can chime in on topic here.
 Now here is what I have planned. I am going with a T3 and a giles pump, I am not looking for massive power, just better acceleration to get to speed. I am also going to bigger nozzles and adding a EGT gauge to keep track of temps. When I get a good mix of fuel, acceleration and EGT, I'll be happy.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on March 01, 2010, 12:01:34 pm
Back on topic and the original question.
The T3/K24 is a great big simple turbo. At sea level you will get some lag, but no more than a stock 1.6TD. After all, the T3 came stock on the 1.6 TD. They are not high-teck, they are not new, they are not complicated and they'll pump out 25 psi all day. Keep the oil supplied to them, and I've had T3s pump out 10psi for 600,000km with no problems whatsoever.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on March 01, 2010, 12:02:44 pm
OK so it really comes down to your application. In stock form a T2 or K14 would be adequate, however once you start changing things its all down to your choice of how you want the car to perform for you. Its going to be a lot of research, more then one question, and a bit of tuning it yourself. I hope other people can chime in on topic here.
 Now here is what I have planned. I am going with a T3 and a giles pump, I am not looking for massive power, just better acceleration to get to speed. I am also going to bigger nozzles and adding a EGT gauge to keep track of temps. When I get a good mix of fuel, acceleration and EGT, I'll be happy.

My sentiments exactly. It sure moves my Caddy along nicely.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: macka on March 01, 2010, 01:39:44 pm
Yea I think I will be going to 25 PSI or so, or at least that was the idea. FWIW I totally neglected looking at the other stuff you stuff you mentioned. I have an intercooler I bought from here, I am using TT bushes in my suspension and will be upgrading it more with braces and coil overs. I'm at low altitude (about 600-1000 feet above sea on average), for the most part. Money isn't tight but I won't spend for a part to say I have it. I'm also reading a lot here, and have gone over everything in the English section, and working on the French section which is tough with my limited knowledge of French.
   I will be asking more questions as I run into problems, and I know I will. The one thing that is for sure in upgrading, is if you don't research and look at other peoples set up, you will be setting yourself up for disappointment.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Giles@PerformanceDiesel on March 01, 2010, 06:56:51 pm
Ok i gotta interject and add my 2 cents worth.
here is my experience with my Passat, 1993 1.9L AAZ.

i used to have a T2 running stock before i bought the car. excessive play so i tried to overhaul it and the small shaft was
too badly worn to rebuild.
we put on a good used K14 and a Giles pump and turned up the boost to 20psi.
it ran really well and gave you an amazing kick in the pants at 17-1800 rpm and full boost by 2300 and held up to about 3700
then dropped off until 5000. 
my best run with this combination was 8.4 sec 0-60 and 16.4 1/4 mile at 78 mph.
this used turbo didn't last too long with the stress and i took it off before it blew up as it was leaking quite bad into the inter cooler.
i then put on a used T3 that did have some play as i wanted to compare the two turbos back to back so to speak.
the used T3 def took longer to spool up and i told Tyler i hated it as i was used the quick spool up of the K14 and no quick kick
in the pants anymore. I gave it a chance and got used to it now.
it starts to give boost at about 1800 and i can get full boost by 2800, 2nd gear and up that is. 1st gear no more than 13psi any
time.  Driving up hill in 5th gear (i'm using TDI tranny) and revving only 1800rpm it will pickup boost and go up the hill no problem.
so here are the result with the T3 turbo.  0-60 8.2sec and 1/4 mil 16.2 sec at 82mph. you can see that the T3 outperformed the k14 i still like the way the k14 feels but now i am used to it. Fuel mileage was exactly the same with both. if i could get a VNT to give me the kick of the K14 and the top end of the T3 i would be a very happy man.


Giles
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: RadoTD on March 01, 2010, 10:50:33 pm
Now how much boost could a T3 reliably push with a lightly ported head and big exhaust?

For 30+ would an HX35 make more sense? Possibly K14+HX35?  :)
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: burn_your_money on March 02, 2010, 04:57:45 am
In regards to Giles car I found it uncomfortable to drive with the K14. I'd be going along lightly in the parking lot and all of a sudden it would build some boost and just take off. It wasn't smooth, even power. Now that he has the T3 on there the power comes on nice and steady all the way up.

I still think the best turbo is no turbo. My 1.9NA is the bees knees.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: stewardc on March 02, 2010, 05:01:07 am
I agree on the T3, as I said before. Great work, Giles. This is the type of statistics I've been looking for.

1.9NA. Hmmmmmmm. I sure would like to drive that sometime. I always felt that engine had the potential to provide good power without a turbo.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Otis2 on March 02, 2010, 11:15:25 am
It would be handy to compare pressure maps for the various turbos on an AAZ, rather than just compare subjective opinions from butt-dynos.

I'll start with posting some T3 maps.

JackBombay calculated these maps for an AAZ engine mounted with a T3 (from a 1.6TD).  His comments were taken from http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3122870 (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3122870) .  He points out that the maximum efficiency "island" of a T3 is only 70%, which is exceeded by modern turbos like the VNT, but even so, the flexibility is pretty good.

Quote from: JackBombay
Thats a nice looking map, A full 3:1 PR which is pretty rare for turbos small enough to work on our small diesels, and it still moves almost 20 lbs of air/minute.

Here are a few points plotted, fwiw,

3400 RPM, 10 PSI, at sea level, right in the efficiency island, it is a little lower at only %70, but its still pretty sweet.

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/T3map1.gif)

The same 3400 RPM, 10 PSI but at 6000'

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/T3map2.gif)

now 3400 RPM, 15 PSI, at sea level,

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/T3map3.gif)

And 3400 RPM, 15 PSI at 6000'

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/T3map4.gif)

And here are a few high RPM high boost at seal level and 6000'

4500 RPM, 17 PSI, sea level,

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/T3map5.gif)

4500 RPM, 17 PSI, 6000'

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/T3map6.gif)

That turbo can run 19 PSI up to 8,000' and still be on the map! Although at sea level it can only run 1 PSI more and stay on the map, 20 PSI at 4500 RPM at 0' puts it right on the edge of the map as does 19 PSI at 8000'. Which is really nice as you can set it to 18 PSI and forget about it, unless you are going to be WAY high in the mountains you'd still be running it within spec at WOT, but its not like you're going to be running around at WOT all day anyway.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: 4wheeler on March 05, 2010, 07:43:27 pm
Hmmm.... Now who do I know with a VNT20 for sale... o right me.

How much are these worth?  are they seperate from teh manifold (top mount?
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: andy2 on March 06, 2010, 05:36:07 pm

I still think the best turbo is no turbo. My 1.9NA is the bees knees.

You didn't actually go out of your way to remove the turbocharger from your engine did you?
How is this the bees knees?
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: burn_your_money on March 06, 2010, 05:40:45 pm
I sure did. It's the bees knees for many reasons. Fuel economy, lack of crap in the way when I need to fix stuff, less stuff to break, good power, and cheaper to maintain to name a few things.

There are still quite a few mods I want to do to my engine to get it even more enjoyable.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: andy2 on March 06, 2010, 05:56:36 pm
I would have thought that adding a turbocharger like a k14 to your current setup for example would have benifited fuel ecomomy.Wasn't that the whole deal with the ECO's ?

Basically you have a non turbo fueled engine that takes advantage of the waste heat to inerease both power and economy.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: burn_your_money on March 06, 2010, 06:07:24 pm
I think that the ECO diesels were more about the environment then fuel economy.

Have you posted pictures of your build yet?
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: andy2 on March 06, 2010, 07:28:41 pm
I think that the ECO diesels were more about the environment then fuel economy.

Have you posted pictures of your build yet?

Nothing yet Tyler,I'll post somthing if or when it gets running again.I'am no longer using a rotary inj pump.

 
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: burn_your_money on March 06, 2010, 08:43:48 pm
You should post what you've done so far, it's flippin sweet.
Title: Re: K24/T-3 Turbo - anygood??
Post by: Rabbit on Roids on March 07, 2010, 08:09:09 am
You should post what you've done so far, it's flippin sweet.

X2

and i wanna see the new inj pump too.