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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: jpedro on February 03, 2010, 12:23:52 am
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Hey, i have a 1990 jetta with a 1.6L TD i have straight pipe 2 3/4" pipe, cold air intake, fuel pump cranked up a considerable amount, blow off valve with a metal down inplace of spring, and the waste gate is disconnected. This car has a K turbo on not sure as to which one it is exactly, but i only hit a maxium boost of 15psi no matter how hard i try. is this right or is there something i have missed to do? or have done wrong? what do you figure. ive got a garret turbo id love to throw on here but not sure how well it would work its a AR 42 cold and exhaust is ar43 i bleive this is the right numbers, but i want to hear more turbo to and i know the garrets are really good for that, i belive is a T3 flange though and the jettas are a T2 are they not? let me know what yall figuree.
j ped
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Boost leak?
Any splits in any of the boost pipes?
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also, if you have no boost leaks, take the cold side of hte turbo off and check that big o ring in there.
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I would suspect that either the wastegate is stuck slightly open, or it is not sealing correctly. One of the turbos I took apart the wastegate was open slightly and wouldn't move freely. Also the wastegate valve/seat get pretty ugly over time allowing leakage.
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blow off valve
Why?
is this right or is there something i have missed to do? or have done wrong? what do you figure.
Pretty sure your BOV is designed to blow off pressure like a valve would.
i belive is a T3 flange though and the jettas are a T2 are they not? let me know what yall figuree.
I figure the exhaust manifold of any car from the factory depends entirely on which turbo was put on it at the factory...
meaning if your car came from VW with a Garrett T3 on it, it will likely have a matching manifold on it... ::)
no, not all jetta's came with the same exhaust manifold.
If all you want is sound put a truck turbo on there. It will never make boost but it will constantly be spooling?
Also, my T3 was missing the o-ring around the compressor housing which made it bleed boost and the turbo was extremely loud due to over spooling. If your turbo it's self is leaking boost causing the turbine to just spin like crazy you wouldn't be complaining about not being able to hear it.
Mine sounded like a turbine off a commercial jet - and never saw over 15 psi either.
If you are driving normally and the boost needle uniformally climbs to 15 and then just stops i am definately pointing the finger at blow off valve. Speaking of which, why did you add one to a diesel engine? Diesel's dont have a throttle body.
Or are you talking about the stock BOV - which bleeds boost at i believe 8-10 psi (I may be wrong)
From my experience if your waste gate is stuck open you will have a very hard time making boost at all ever. Basically only at WOT will you see any numbers if your waste gate is stuck.
What is the history? did the car just suddenly stop making more than 15 pounds or what? did you buy the car like this?
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the blow off valve never lets there be more than 15 psi manifold pressure. bolt it closed...
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He has:
blow off valve with a metal down inplace of spring
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He has:
blow off valve with a metal down inplace of spring
meaning it doesn't function?
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yes. basically the next best thing to just taking it off. i just missed that part is all.
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has the exhaust wastegate been plugged and not just the one on the manifold?
Ive got 20+psi on almost stock fueling with my K24 and both the blow off and wastegate gone.
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Same, except i run a Garrett T3
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so on the waste gate theres more then one spot to disconnect it? i just disconnected the metal line and thats where i put a fitting for my boost gauge. the stock bov is not functional and as far boosting to 15psi it goes up no problem and halts right at 15 im suspecting the wastegate is slightly stuck open a bit, so how would i go about checking this becuase when i got the car it was totally stock so im kinda stumped. is it easy to pull the turbo to inspect it all, or just pulling the waste gate to clean up to make a seal is that fiarly easy or a chore in itself? any thing else you need to know drop me aline here
thanks
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remove your down pipe u can see the valve on a k24. be careful those studs love to snap off.
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Are there any pics somewheres of what to do to block everything off?
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you do not want to block your wastegate. you want a boost controller. if you block your wastegate, you will be replacing the turbo sooner rather than later. and you get FULL boost at like half pedal now, instead of full boost with full pedal.
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ive run many turbos with wastegates removed, and i know many other people who do it to and have never seen a problem yet,? what happens to the turbo that you might have to replace it. i get no turbo flutter when i let off like most turbos and i get boost like a turbo would normally boost it just doesnt go up to as much preasure as i think it should, it goes to 15 and just sits and i have no boost leaks anywhere i can tell so it must be the waste gate not closin properly against the hoursing. o have to pull the downpipe and see whats going on, just have to put some penetrating fluid on the studs and wait a couple days just keep adding more keep it wet so the shouldnt be to hard to pull.
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My Garrett T3 will boost up to 30 psi easily, but you need one of these.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=18289.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=18289.0)
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that cover is just as good as putting a Bolt in place of the BOV spring.... so i have to still wonder if im only limited to 15psi cause the wastegate isnt close all the way how can i tell its got some huge honey comb deleee on there.... and the waste gate has no vacum control on it, only operated by boost pusing it open it says KKK on the turbo so is 15 the limit?
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My vote is for something nobody has yet mentioned - the wastegate spring has gone soft!
If the wastegate spring is soft, the exhaust pressure will push the WG valve open..... no more boost.
My VW T3 is currently a bit tardy and only lets me have 20psi, with wastegate disconnected. To ge a little more, I actually plumbed vacuum to the wastegate can to try and hold it shut, but the diaphragm is leaky so i only got about 2psi more :-(
i've lately been considering removing the top of the wastegate can and making a kind of spring balance for the valve, so all I have to do to adjust the boost pressure is to adjust preload on a spring, and let the wastegate open with exhaust pressure as its normal function.
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you do not want to block your wastegate. you want a boost controller. if you block your wastegate, you will be replacing the turbo sooner rather than later. and you get FULL boost at like half pedal now, instead of full boost with full pedal.
unless you set your build up right. I have no boost control and she drives beautifully. no excess boost ever.
40-50 mpg and she'll see 30psi if my foot says so. it is possible to set it up to not need any boost control but thats just my personal experience.
people think that if you have no boost control you run 100 psi on idle or something?
the only time the turbo is going to wear excessively is when it's boosting outside it's efficiency range and when does that honestly happen? when racing and when merging onto the highway and passing people...
small turbos i guess there is a problem?
is my T3 considered large?
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My vote is for something nobody has yet mentioned - the wastegate spring has gone soft!
If the wastegate spring is soft, the exhaust pressure will push the WG valve open..... no more boost.
My VW T3 is currently a bit tardy and only lets me have 20psi, with wastegate disconnected. To ge a little more, I actually plumbed vacuum to the wastegate can to try and hold it shut, but the diaphragm is leaky so i only got about 2psi more :-(
i've lately been considering removing the top of the wastegate can and making a kind of spring balance for the valve, so all I have to do to adjust the boost pressure is to adjust preload on a spring, and let the wastegate open with exhaust pressure as its normal function.
Edit: people will say im stupid and im going to waste my turbo but i never see pressures over 11psi in normal driving anyways (which is the stock max setting)
fill the holes with JB weld and you will see limitless boost only controlled with fueling. thats how i run mine and it's perfect.
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you do not want to block your wastegate. you want a boost controller. if you block your wastegate, you will be replacing the turbo sooner rather than later. and you get FULL boost at like half pedal now, instead of full boost with full pedal.
unless you set your build up right. I have no boost control and she drives beautifully. no excess boost ever.
40-50 mpg and she'll see 30psi if my foot says so. it is possible to set it up to not need any boost control but thats just my personal experience.
people think that if you have no boost control you run 100 psi on idle or something?
the only time the turbo is going to wear excessively is when it's boosting outside it's efficiency range and when does that honestly happen? when racing and when merging onto the highway and passing people...
small turbos i guess there is a problem?
is my T3 considered large?
when i had the WG disconnected on my audi, it made way too much boost, i would get 15 psi before 3000. and i wanted around 20 right before wide open.
you dont have enough fuel for your turbo yet ed. if your pump were turned up, you would need some sort of boost control. josh has a K24 with no wastegate and it spikes 44 psi. i dont want that kind of uncontrollable boost. my VNT has no WG, and it makes about 30 psi maxed out, and it sounds like the compressor wheel is about to fly apart. lol.
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Yes Kevin, but the point im making is that you never see those numbers unless your foot is on the floor.
my gauge will pin if i hold my foot down in 3rd from about 50-110km/hr
but i see what you are saying, you want the engine to run much richer than it would if it were allowed all the boost the turbo is making. i see i see.
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Itīs the fuel that makes power. If you have to control boost with fuel, you wonīt make real power.
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Itīs the fuel that makes power. If you have to control boost with fuel, you wonīt make real power.
yes, thats what im saying... i would get way too much boost for the amount of throttle that i had. and then i would back off the throttle, because i only had a 30 psi gauge and it would peg it fairly easy.
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so how do i go about checking to see if my wastegates stuck open a bit whats the best/easitest route seeing as its so tight between there and the firewall.
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so how do i go about checking to see if my wastegates stuck open a bit whats the best/easitest route seeing as its so tight between there and the firewall.
you can see the wastegate if you pull the downpipe off. it points toward the brake booster.
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My vote is for something nobody has yet mentioned - the wastegate spring has gone soft!
If the wastegate spring is soft, the exhaust pressure will push the WG valve open..... no more boost.
My VW T3 is currently a bit tardy and only lets me have 20psi, with wastegate disconnected. To ge a little more, I actually plumbed vacuum to the wastegate can to try and hold it shut, but the diaphragm is leaky so i only got about 2psi more :-(
i've lately been considering removing the top of the wastegate can and making a kind of spring balance for the valve, so all I have to do to adjust the boost pressure is to adjust preload on a spring, and let the wastegate open with exhaust pressure as its normal function.
Edit: people will say im stupid and im going to waste my turbo but i never see pressures over 11psi in normal driving anyways (which is the stock max setting)
fill the holes with JB weld and you will see limitless boost only controlled with fueling. thats how i run mine and it's perfect.
I welded an aluminum plate over the hole my BOV left when I removed it. JB will work to, I just love using my TIG. After my issues in divorce court are over (5 years after it was "final") then I'll install my EGT and close off my waste gate ;-)
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running with a blocked off wastegate is a bad idea tho. just unhooking it isnt as bad, because at around 30 or 40 psi drive pressure, the exhaust will blow the wastegate open no matter what, just as long as it can physically still move. if you weld it closed or block it with something, it will not let any gasses by no matter how high the drive pressure gets. and then your turbo MIGHT commit suicide. and may take your engine out with it.
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Roids is right - when i had hte prothe merc t3 on, i bolted the wastegate shut because the actuator fouled on the firewall (a3 chassis). i turned the fuelling down about 3/4 of a turn from where i had it with my t2, and i could easily peg the guage (30psi) at less than full throttle (and way under full revs). i continually had to wuss out of going fast for fear of making something explode.
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+1 for needing a boost controller.
I blocked off my wastegate pipe and my little gt15 would hit 30+psi by about 2.5/3k rpm and that certianly wasnt good for it. It wouldnt be practical for me to drive it like that as any full throttle action (overtaking etc) would be kamikaze for the little turbo. I was also getting turbo stall at that level of boost which again wouldnt help the longevity of the gt15.
Ive since made my own boost controller and its set to 21/22psi.
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boost controllers are a very good idea, especially when you can build an adjustible one for about 5 bucks.
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boost controllers are a very good idea, especially when you can build an adjustible one for about 5 bucks.
Do share =D
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Eddy google DIY Dawes device and it will show you how to make one with a few plumbing supplies.
Mine cost me Ģ10. ;D
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Eddy google DIY Dawes device and it will show you how to make one with a few plumbing supplies.
Mine cost me Ģ10. ;D
what he said, or look for DIY boost controller. i pulled my initial ideas off some honda forum. my bleed hole is also adjustible in size.
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Since you say that it goes right up to 15psi and stops indicates to me that you either have a problem with the wastegate opening or the overboost protector (BOV) still opening. Are you 100% certain that it (BOV) isn't leaking?
On the off chance, maybe you have a hole in your intake manifold gasket, but I'd say that is pretty unlikely.
Is your air filter clean?
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The BOV is non functional, the end hole was filled with jb weld just incase and the actuatore spring was replaced with a bolt. as far as leaks i couldnt tell you to be honest as far as the main line from turbo to intake i doubt that leaks its fairly new and no visible marks on it, the only thing i can see happening is the wastegate stuck open a bit, even though i totally removed the line from it, ill attempt to rip off my downpipe to inspect it and see how many bolts there i brake hahaa. any other ideas?
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i just took of my downpipe, broke one bult in the turbo. Fixed that
couldnt see anything but a hole at the bottom of the housing for the turbo which leads to the wastegate. but couldnt actually see the wastegate.
so i looked for the bolt to tighten the waste gate spring. found it removed it totatllly to clean up the threads, was tightening it up and the part where the threads are on the canister of the wastegate poped out, i can move the spring back and fourht with a screw driver, now i have to figuree out how to fix that. but how does that thing work? when the spring is all the way to the pass side of the car no preasure will that build less boost then it would if it were tight with the screw in with presure against the spring?
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i dont have a picture of the part that broke off, if you look on the end of your wastegate on a kkk turbo, theres the bolt with a allen head on the end for the adjustment. well its the bung that was either brazed or soldered into the copper casing of the W/G that came out, i jb welded it back in which was fine, tightened the bolt back in there and for a while i could go over 15psi around 18 or so and now it stop at about 14 psi so im guessing that my W/G is still stuck open some how. how can i totally ditch that thing, and ill put my own BOV inline with a intercooler? and the other thing is i cannt get to the two allen bolts holding on the actual W/G actuator. how the hell you get them out? any sugestions please.
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ok cool thanks, and once i get it out what should i do to fix it whats the best route? so that i dont have to do the way i mentioned.
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It's been at least a couple years since I've had one of the KKK turbos and so my memory is a bit foggy, but I was under the impression that the threads to the wastegate screw were inside the top of the can. That's why I was asking for a picture. The top of the wastegate can is also mild steel, not copper. If it were mine I would weld a new nut to the can. Other options would include carefully undoing the crimp of the can and pulling of the top and installing (glue or weld) a nut to the inside so that it was pressing on the can top rather than being held by the glue, or you could try to find someone with a knackered version of that turbo to steal the wastegate from. If you go that route, bear in mind that the K14 and k24 wastegates are not interchangeable even tho they look the same externally.
the wastegate is steel, and it does have a nut thing in the top. and a set nut on the stud you thread in to adjust the gate.
take the WG out of the turbo, and take your air compressor and blow some air into it. should atleast move it.
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Using a BOV for boost control is a bad idea. It would basically be a big boost leak and hurt engine efficiency and the way it dumps boost really hurts drivability.
Just to add to that, when the BOV pops there's nothing pushing back on the compressor wheel anymore, so the turbo can hit CRAZY high speeds very easily. The idea of a wastegate is it reduces the drive pressure on the exhaust turbine, thereby reducing RPMs of the turbines. The BOV has the exact opposite effect, it makes it way easier to spin the compressor.
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just did a 1200+km trip this weekend, no wastegate or bov enabled pump adjusted, burnt a tank n a half of fuel, but never seen over 13psi no matter how hard i was on the throttle, i was going along a flat spot at about 160km/hr and about 14psi was the highest it read, i think my wastegate is garbage, and i cant get it out to clean the seat for it or block it off, what the heck do i do...... other then that i only had a minor issue, my alternator was over charging cause my heater blower died and was drawing some crazy amps... so i went to shut off the blower cause it was smokin and smelt nasty and i found out my switch control had melted, good thing where i was happend to have a wrecker full of imports so i got a new control and blower motor all for 45.00 good deal i figuree.
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just did a 1200+km trip this weekend, no wastegate or bov enabled pump adjusted, burnt a tank n a half of fuel, but never seen over 13psi no matter how hard i was on the throttle, i was going along a flat spot at about 160km/hr and about 14psi was the highest it read, i think my wastegate is garbage, and i cant get it out to clean the seat for it or block it off, what the heck do i do...... other then that i only had a minor issue, my alternator was over charging cause my heater blower died and was drawing some crazy amps... so i went to shut off the blower cause it was smokin and smelt nasty and i found out my switch control had melted, good thing where i was happend to have a wrecker full of imports so i got a new control and blower motor all for 45.00 good deal i figuree.
you got a boost leak somewhere. did you mechanically block the BOV? like put a bolt in it and screw the cap back on there? or did you put a cap on the outside nipple? what turbo are you running? if its a T3 you can check to see if the WG is working right with it still on the engine.
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I did mechanically block the BOV with a small bolt. and put the end cap back on it. i belive its either the K14 or 24 turbo its got the honey comb looking gadget around the wastegate and i do belive the wastegate is stuck open slightly and i cannt get it out so what should i do just scrap this whole idea?
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I dont know if you tried it, but you should remove the whole turbo from the car to work on it properly... you will get it all apart with persistance but you'll have to have it on hte bench.
Good luck :-)
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I dont know if you tried it, but you should remove the whole turbo from the car to work on it properly... you will get it all apart with persistance but you'll have to have it on hte bench.
Good luck :-)
if you are NOT a retard, once you get the turbo off the car, it will be quite appearent what needs to come apart. i fixed my K24 in about an hour, and that was including pulling it and putting it back on. my wastegate was stuck. K24 turbos are retardedly simple. the whole wastegate comes out as one piece, its a beautiful design. then you just hit the WG shaft with lube of your choice, and start working the WG face back and forth, there should be a big allen head in the middle of it.
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lol well i am by no means a "RETARD" but i have not attempted to take of the turbo yet, looks like a monster chore. but i suppose ill have to do that this weekend
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turbos are very simple, they usually only have one or 2 moving pieces.
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turbos are very simple, they usually only have one or 2 moving pieces.
I totally agree. I love it when my friends go off on BOV's and waste gates and fuel/air ratio and oil coolers and adding forged pistons because they are turbo-ing their civic DX hatch back and making an astonishing 90ft.lbs torque and 115hp (which i think is exagerated) at like 7,000 rpm. And that car cost them many many thousands. and it's just as old as mine. oh and two door. and gets half the mileage.
god i love diesel