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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: td_Jetta on May 01, 2009, 04:43:40 pm
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Ok, I didn't post this until it was ten days in the past. I screwed up my daily driver in such a way I'm still embarrassed to share it with people who know how truly dumb I was, but here goes. I was heading home at 75-80 mph when I felt the power slack off and a faint fuel smell. After a look it was plain to see my #2 hard line had failed. fuel spirits all over. Stranded I started to think about a limp home strategy. I thought I was so F'in smart. I'll just bend the line a bit cut off the windshield wiper sprayer tubing and redirect that little spray some where. Oh ya, a 1/2 liter bottle in the trunk. I wedged it between the fender and the filter box. Can ya see it happening now? With that I drove off. On my way up a hill the bottle tipped and spilled right in the air box intake. After hearing some strange noises I pulled off the road to check it out. I pushed in on the clutch and away it went. I was so panicked I tried to shut it down with the key and failed to just let the clutch back out. 2-5 seconds of very high revs (what a cool sound!) and poof my great running low mileage td go-cart it dead. There was a carbon trail spit down on the road for 50 feet marking the rev out
What a dumb ass! I share this so that someone else will know to let the clutch out if they're ever in the same kind of situation. I know it's not likely but it is worth the mental drill to be ready. It could save you your diesel.
So now for the questions after I spilled my guts out for you all.
What is the most likely damage? It still turns over and there are no holes in the block or pan. Did I just jump a tooth on the timing and bend the valves? I don't hear any tapping when it turns over. I guess that doesn't mean much. Did I kill the pump? A hole in a piston? Thoughts Please. Save the insults. I have already had my once huge mechanical ego crushed. -Temo :( :oops: :lol:
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I'me having the crushed ego problem myself with this new engine which started out so great. I would start with a compression test first, you might have lucked out and not hurt anything but I didn't hear it.
You probably couldn't have gotten that bottle to do that trick spill if you tried to, probably been just as far ahead to have just stuck the hose in the intake to begin with if it was gonna do that, that's a shame.
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Is there oil dumping anywhere? Holes in anything? Can you turn it over by hand with out any binding or contact? If you pull the valve cover, what does the valve train look like? Any messed up looking lifters? At that sort of rpm you probably had some sort of valve float. Ie piston valve contact. I am sure others will chime in. There are probably some posts on "run away" that talk about it more in depth.
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well you might get lucky... with the stock intake the way it is if the engine was inhaling fuel mist, hopefully it was all fully burnt. however if fuel droplets were being injested, and hitting the metallic surfaces, then that could burn it.
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Might be head pull'n time.
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I also vote to go ahead and pull the head and just see for yourself. Also, in the future when you check the pump timing, and make adjustment of the timing (i.e. rotating the pump), make sure you loosen the 4 fuel lines at the pump.
Why? Because my experience has demonstrated (I feel I see a correlation) between failed fuel lines and not loosening the nuts during pump adjustments. You, ultimately, end up putting a bind on the line which can eventually lead to a crack. As I recall, it is most often the #2 line which goes this way.
The last time I had to dump a clutch to stop one of these it broke 3 of the 4 springs on the clutch plate......seems like nothing is for free these days.
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If he wanged some valves, will the compression test be accurate?
Never mind :oops:
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I think the #1 cause of fuel line breakage is the absence of any of the three anti-vibration clips.
I'd think #2 was from adjusting the pump without loosening the fittings after.
WRT the runaway, I'd be inclined to do a compression test before pulling it apart. Most likely all four glow plug tips are gone.
Andrew
do the glow plugs really get eaten from a runaway? i thought it was only from bad injector spray pattern... either way i agree that a compression test is in order, and a quick check to make sure cam timing is in line with TDC before pulling the head. theres a high possibility of some fried rings and valves from the excess EGT's, but hopefully everything is alright.
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Thanks for the thoughts guys. I'll check the lifters (solid) for movement first. I'll pull the glows next. Then retime and compression test if that all looks good.
The strange thing about the #2 hard line failure is it was brand new(200 or so miles). I know to loosen the lines before timing. Timing was done pre new lines. Yes the clamps were on and tight. When I fit the new lines they had to be bent a little to get them to connect up. I didn't bend them so they lined right up without having to muscle them in to place to start the nut. I think this was my mistake. The lines had to be stressed into place to connect instead of lining right up. I've been told you don't want to bend the lines at all. I don't know how I'd line them up with no stress on them with out some bending for the first fitments. I Just bought a rebuilt 1.6td. $600 built by a muni (San Frans local bus outfit)30 year vet mechanic. It has a fresh clean head on it. I pulled the pan and it all looks new and well done. The run a way won't get yanked until I know what has failed. I'll post up the results when I investigate. Thanks again.
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Yup, glow plugs are almost always just little nubs after a runaway. Usually that's the reason it won't start afterward. I would still want to check the belt timing and do a compression check.
yep mine used to burn through them a good bit until it finally had a big run away after that i solved all my breather issues and it never happened again.
when my rabbit ran away all that went wrong was the head gasket blew and the cylinders filled with oil, not damage to the rods or head, all i had to do was replace the head gasket(i reringed while i was at it) and replace an o ring on my block heater, and the car was good to go.
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My bet is you just murdered the glow plugs.
Run aways are almost garenteed to kill the glow plugs.
And possibly a head gasket. I'd change the head gasket and check all the glow plugs. any other damage will be obvious by that point...
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I'm not sure what quantity of fuel we're talking about here but with fuel pouring into the intake manifold I'd be worried about hydrolocking damage.
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but this runaway isn't like a normal runaway... a normal runaway sends unfiltered oil streaming into the intake (or shooting past the rings into the cylinders), whereas the OP's situation sent fuel through the air filter (probably helping it atomize a little).
my thoughts are that it would be like running some quickstart through the intake before the filter. without the glow plugs energized, it should be fine, right? or am i wrong?
and just to get things straight, the vehicle is a vanagon, right? does the intake system run downhill, meaning that anything poured into intake boot leak right into the engine? i wouldn't think that VW engineers would allow that, or the engine might ingest a face full of water if there was a leak, or a big enough puddle.
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I thought GP's were sensitive to run aways just because of the WOT conditions... putting down power, be it oil or diesel fed, will make a ton of heat.
When i had my run aways with my old head (cracks between valves) it wasn't blue like oil fed... it was a huge cloud of white. I suppose i should make a new thread about that? Was my run away oil fed? I thought it was having excessive water injection because my coolant would go down significantly and the cubic kilometer behind me would be a man, ahem jetta, made cloud of water vapour...
Regardless, this killed at least three of my glow plugs. And wouldn't start afterwards. Aswell, the 1 time i was dumb enough to over heat the engine that also killed the glow plugs.
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ah i re-read and he said that he found the bottle from the trunk... i misinterpreted that the bottle was placed in the trunk (near the engine, if it was a vanagon).
so hopefully we can see pics of the damage, because i'd like to see some dead glow plugs.
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I thought GP's were sensitive to run aways just because of the WOT conditions... putting down power, be it oil or diesel fed, will make a ton of heat.
When i had my run aways with my old head (cracks between valves) it wasn't blue like oil fed... it was a huge cloud of white. I suppose i should make a new thread about that? Was my run away oil fed? I thought it was having excessive water injection because my coolant would go down significantly and the cubic kilometer behind me would be a man, ahem jetta, made cloud of water vapour...
Regardless, this killed at least three of my glow plugs. And wouldn't start afterwards. Aswell, the 1 time i was dumb enough to over heat the engine that also killed the glow plugs.
mine had white smoke as well, and was definitely an oil run away. it was crazy amounts of white smoke too, the whole 4 lane highway i blew up on had to come to a near hault cause you couldn't see 10 feet because of all the smoke, it smelled terrible too. it went way up over the trees. one of the most amazing things i ever saw.
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I would think that unless there were some metalic banging or breaking sounds during the runaway till it stopped running then everything should be fine hopefully. Simply do a compression test, if it wont turn over then you know right off the bat there is a mechanical problem and then pull the head.
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I haven't been able to get to the car this weekend. The car is an 85 Jetta. I don't remember any metallic banging sound when it went off but the heat was pretty intents. The amount of fuel is hard to say as I found the 1/2 litter bottle upside down with the 1/4 tubing still in it sitting tipped in the air box inlet. So the air box must have had a good 1/4+ of fuel spilled in it. I don't know how long after the bottle tipped with the hose in it before it ran away. There was an air filter in place so I don't think it got straight fuel. I thought the killer was the revs but I guess the heat is more of the issue. I could hear detonation sounds (pings) 15 seconds before I started to pullover. That's what scares me. I was on a long hill so I was close to full throttle on 3 cylinders when the pings came on.
Is it possible to have the cam belt jump a tooth and still not bend valves? when I turned it over it sounded a little strange like the valve timing was off. Could be the lack of glow plugs I guess or a blown head gasket or a hole in a Piston top or a bent valve. It used to start up so fast I don't remember how it sounds cracking over to compare it. My smoke was black from the tail pipe and a little white from under the hood. I think the white was oil cooking of the head and block from the heat. Well I find out soon enough. I'm glad to hear there is a chance it could be revived with out to much work and money.
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if you've used a high quality synthetic in the engine, there is a very good chance that its still 'alive'. if not, there is a good chance that the oil is all coked and sludged, especially if you have a turbo.
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No synthetics......
I don't think I burned much engine oil. The white smoke was from external surfaces for just a moment. The dip stick check looked just fine. I guess the turbo bearings and head could be roasted. I didn't smell all that though.
Andrew, thanks for the good check procedure. I know about injector removals. I haven't posted much but I've read a lot of this forum. Hey I think my mechanical ego is slowly coming back. :P
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but I imagine that it has to do with the fuel being present on the compression stroke and burning with extremely advanced timing.
Andrew
Smart thinking Andrew... I think you're exactly right.
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Do a compression test, it will give you an indication of any internal problems if 1 or 2 are way different than another, didn't I hear you say you were running full throttle on 3 cyls. before or was that after the runnaway? If not it sounds like there were problems there to begin with and now is a good time to check it all out.
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Ok here's the scoop. The injector line broke because the rear pump mount bolt is MIA. So that is cleared up. I've got bent valves in the 1 and 4 holes. That's a guess. The lifters aren't stuck but I can hear squeaks from the guides so somethings not right. All the glows are melted away. The timing belt is mangled. I put a new TB on and new glows to try and start it. It runs very poorly on #2and3. Time to pull the head. I don't think a compression check will tell me anything more. Thanks for all the good input guys. -Temo :roll: