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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rabbitman on April 24, 2009, 05:40:59 pm
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Ok, I'm looking at putting my vnt on and I have some Qs for the experts to answer :P .
1: I have a CIS intake mani I want to use but it hits the egr(?) port on the exhaust mani. So to make it fit I need to wack off about .5 inches of the port, then should I weld the hole shut? I can weld normal steel but I've never done cast.
2: What do people do for the turbo drain line? Can you weld or braze on the oil pan w/o warping it, and is the oil low enough in the pan for the drain to be above the oil level? And what diameter of drain?
3: For the oil feed line can I use a 3/16 brake line or do I have to buy the feed one made for this?
More questions to come, I'm still at the "collecting parts" stage so it'll be a little while before I do the actual install, plus this is my daily driver so I don't want much down time. Thanks everybody! :)
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Another question, I have the kind of turbo where the whole turbo can unbolt from the mani. Has anyone ever put this style on a rabbit? I was doing some measuring and I see that the DP is gonna be awful close if not touching the shift linkage. Does the pipe need to be welded to the flange at 90 degrees or can it be welded sloping down at say 25 degrees off the turbo? Hope this makes sense......
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it has to have a bend slightly more than 90* to clear the flanges (if you got big ones) and the shift linkages. when my downpipe comes loose, i know it pretty quick. shifter starts vibrating and the flange rubs on the downpipe when decelerating. but... i did a pretty good job getting everything to fit, considering i built the pipe completely off the car. no test fits, no mesurements, no nothing. and all i had to do was grind a little off the port, then grind a little off the bottom of the intake. worked like a dream. i dont have much clearance between the two, but they dont hit or leak.
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Here's some pics of the ill fitting intake mani:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit042.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit043.jpg)
In the pictures I've got the mani parallel with the head, you can see how much of the ports are showing. It looks to me like it needs to move down about a half inch, which would require grinding on the exhaust manifold.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit044.jpg)
As you can see this is a different exhaust manifold and turbo than any others I've seen like in this picture I found of hamradio's.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/untitled-1.jpg)
It's hard to see the difference in the pics but in the first one you can see were the interference is, grinding the intake right there isn't an option since it's the runner.
I really want to use the gasser intake but if I can't this'll work.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit049.jpg)
Also would any of you guys bother porting either of these?
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit057.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit060.jpg)
Thanks
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Just to clarify,
To weld cast I just need to preheat the manifold to something like 300F, and use DC w/ 7018 rod and then let it cool, the slower the better?
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ive never seen a vnt 15 like that before. mine is just like the one on hamradios car. and WTF kinda intake is that? from a G60? or an old mk1? the digi 1 and 2 intakes are pretty easy to make fit from what my experience was. but i dont have a goofy turbo mani like yours. my turbo mounts low and close to the engine. im not even sure you can make anything work with that ex mani unless you hack the EGR port off and weld it closed.
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ive never seen a vnt 15 like that before. mine is just like the one on hamradios car. and what kinda intake is that? from a G60? or an old mk1? the digi 1 and 2 intakes are pretty easy to make fit from what my experience was. but i dont have a goofy turbo mani like yours. my turbo mounts low and close to the engine. im not even sure you can make anything work with that ex mani unless you hack the EGR port off and weld it closed.
I've heard this turbo is what they have over the pond.
The intake is off a '79 1.6L cis rabbit gasser, the other one is a TD one duh. :roll:
Yeah, I'll wack the EGR port and weld it shut and if that doesn't give me enough clearance I'll resort to using the stupid TD intake.
Thanks for the input. :D
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Well I ground it off, so now the gasser mani will work. I just need to block off all the vacuum ports and make an adapter for the intake piping.
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Trying to fab a turbo oil feed line.
I found that 1/8inch brass pipe fittings screw into the oil filter flange and turbo, I believe they're supposed to be m10x1.0 so the threads are a bit different but I wonder if it'll work anyways?
I was thinking I could use some brass compression fittings and a piece of 3/16 brake line. Think it would hold?
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How about just re-bending a stock line and keeping the stock fittings?
I was under the impression that the stock one had different connections. I read somewere on here that were the line hooks to the oil filter flange was M12x1.5, mine is M10x1.0. And I though the T3 has a flange were it goes into the pump? I could be wrong obviously.
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You, sir, are lucky. Your VNT can be separated from the manifold.
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The stock 1.6TD line will obviously work with the stock 1.6TD filter flange. The stock 1.6TD line will also perfectly fit the VNT oil fitting, assuming you have it. From the one picture which shows the supply, you have a red plug in the hole into which the fitting should thread. If you DO have the little fitting, then the only remaining question would be whether or not the stock steel line is long enough to reach.
I'm not sure what fitting your talking about, I though the line went directly into the turbo, didn't know it needed another fitting.
You, sir, are lucky. Your VNT can be separated from the manifold.
Didn't know I had such a treasure :P
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when i made my oil line, i used the front half of the 1.6 line, and i used the oil line off the tdi for the rear half. took and slipped them in a piece of brake line and hot bolted them together. the stock oil line didnt even come close for me..
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I bought a ready made 4an or so hose from ebay, and then bought 2 m10x1.5 to 4an adapters for my VNT.
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Ok, I buggered my new IM shaft bearing up trying to install it so I took the opportunity to install my turbo since it'll be sitting 'till the new bearings come.
The gasser manifold:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit067.jpg)
Check out this weld 8):
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit078.jpg)
The downpipe with the flange next to it, needs lots of work.:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit070.jpg)
Still needs more work. I don't really like the angle that this leaves the turbo:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit077.jpg)
The flexpipe:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit072.jpg)
These convert 1/8pipe to 5/16 brake line for the oil feed:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit075.jpg)
Making sure it fits:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit068.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit069.jpg)
So what do you think? I'm stoked, I can hardly wait to be able to get a 0-60 time ::)
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woah, that turbo is way different. never seen one like that. looks like it would fit in a mk2 or mk3 very well.
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I wish mine was like that, so I could make a little adapter to go in between the turbo and manifold to allow use of an external wastegate.
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looks to be from an afn passat? the Ibiza and polo tdi's have a vnt15 suitable for the mk3/3 engine mounts, the turbo is part of the manifold still but more central to the engine bay.
Ryan
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looks to be from an afn passat?
Ryan
That's what I ordered the turbo gaskets for was a AFN, strangely enough the bolt holes in the gasket that goes between turbo and mani don't line up. Easy fix though. The only place I could find 'em was through prothe, I bought three things on ebay at the same time and his gaskets beat the other stuff here by quite a bit.
As for putting a wastegate between turbo and mani, it's about 2-3 inches from the firewall right now.
I'll keep updating as I go, I'm stuck in the shop so I can't put it off anymore, hopefully it'll get done soon.
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One little thing I did is took the oil pan off, blocked it up at the same angle it is when installed and filled it with 4 quarts of water to see if the turbo oil return is submerged.
The water came to half an inch from the top, I would guess the level goes down some when it's running but unless your really low on oil the return is completely under, especially when accelerating.
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I made the downpipe yesterday:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit083.jpg)
Here's some shots of the oil line, what do yall think, a no go?
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit081.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit080.jpg)
I decided to make a 2.25 inch downpipe and neck it down into the stock pipe in front of the shifter for now, I don't really wanna sink more money and time into it at the moment. When I get the chance I'm running 2.25 all the way back.
The oil line is 5/16 brake line, think it'll hold up? I'm going to support it with adel clamps to minimize vibrations.
The drain isn't installed yet, pics of it will be up soon.
Any idea's are welcome! :D
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Well, I started it today ;D Funny right as it fired I heard a really short squeak and then it went away.
I don't have a hose yet for turbo outlet or turbo inlet. I revved it a bit and the turbo blew some air out so I know it's spinning ::).
I don't have the vnt controls in yet, I can't wait to drive it so for now I screwed the full closed adjusting screw all the way in and that holds 'em opened all the way.
Oh yeah, I used a 1/2 inch pipe plug to plug the egr port in the exhaust mani, the hole was too big but I think it'll hold. I don't have any pics of it.
Here a shot of the drain:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit085.jpg)
Does this look like enough clearance?
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit086.jpg)
I primed the oil system with a 13mm socket on a speed handle before start it, I can hit 70 psi cold like this:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit087.jpg)
I need to run a hose from the red cap visible under the fuel filter to the intake mani on the drivers side:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit090.jpg)
The downpipe and shifter clearance:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit091.jpg)
The stupid 2.25 into 1.5 exhaust, hopefully not permanent:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit094.jpg)
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I think I decided to use airoquip hose for the turbo inlet with a cone filter, I'd rather use an air box but I don't have one that'll work.
Haven't found anything to use for the turbo to intake mani hose yet.
It will have such stupid bends in it that I need something that won't kink easy.
EDIT: The hose is actually called airoduct, and I'm thinkin' I might swipe the air box off my carbed rabbit for now 'till I can get a real TD one as I need to be able to hook up the breather hose.
Also since I can't find a decent way to support the oil feed line I think I'll get a rubber hose with barb fittings and double clamp it. It should make it bullet proofer.
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I drove it today :o.
Ran fine, but didn't have a bit of boost. When I floor it black smoke billows out and I can hear the turbo spool up but the boost gauge didn't even budge.
So I took it back in the shop and could see lots of oil in the clear intake hose, too much for the breather to be the cause.
I took the compressor housing off and the nut that holds the wheel on but I can't get the wheel off.
I did see that when I push the wheel/shaft towards the exhaust side and spin it there's a terrible grinding sound.
So I need to somehow pull the wheel, get the shaft out and find a seal kit then maybe I'll be on the road 8).
EDIT: Ok, my mistake, I got the wheel partway off still in the exhaust housing and the grinding was the turbine wheel rubbing the housing ::)
UPDATE: One possible 'cause of the lack of boost situation is that there were only three bolts holding the turbo into the exhaust housing instead of five, I mustuv over looked it.
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Well I took the turbo all apart to see if any seals were blown and found out I couldn't tell by looking.
So I'm gonna put it back together with FIVE bolts (instead of three) holding it to the exhaust housing and maaayybee it'll make some boost.
I did a test and blew compressed air into the intake mani and the boost gauge went up so I know it wasn't making boost before.
Even though I could tell by the black smoke and lack of (read "normal") power that it wasn't boosting ::).
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So I'm gonna put it back together with FIVE bolts (instead of three) holding it to the exhaust housing and maaayybee it'll make some boost.
Having either side mounted off center (not bolted down correctly) could definitely cause the rotating assembly to interfere.. :o ;D
Also - I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but using a far larger oil line for oiling the turbo could be a problem down the road. In general custom turbo oil supply lines have restrictors, both to maintain high pressure in the motor and not to overload the turbo cartridge. More is not better. If you push oil into the turbo so fast that it can't properly drain, you'll be barfing out the seals, which will be disastrous.
If you don't have one you really need to consider a restricter that reduces the pipe size to that of a the ID of a stock steel line. You also should consider an oil pressure gauge, don't rely on the idiot light.
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So I'm gonna put it back together with FIVE bolts (instead of three) holding it to the exhaust housing and maaayybee it'll make some boost.
Having either side mounted off center (not bolted down correctly) could definitely cause the rotating assembly to interfere.. :o ;D
If you don't have one you really need to consider a restricter that reduces the pipe size to that of a the ID of a stock steel line. You also should consider an oil pressure gauge, don't rely on the idiot light.
What I meant by three instead of five bolts is I think it wouldn't seal the exhaust gasses in, so exhaust pressure would bleed off before it could spin the turbo....might be a long shot I guess.
Here you go ;D
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit013.jpg)
Mike, the oil restrictor should only be used on ball bearing style turbos. On journal bearing turbos, the restriction is the clearance of the journal bearings to the shaft and housing. The stock VW oil line will flow far more oil than can pass the journal bearing clearance. Going to a larger line won't affect that.
Andrew
I thought that too, thanks for clearing it up Andrew :D
BTW, this turbo already has a restrictor built into it, it's deep down in the feed port and I can't fit the back of an 1/8th drill bit into it, so it's even smaller than my oil line ID ;D.
BTW myke_w, your high volume oil pump works great!!!
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hehe, well I got it to work without the huge oil leaks 8).
I'm pretty sure the pre-turbine exhaust leaks were the cause of no boost.
First I wired the vanes fully shut and that way I could get about 4 psi if I blipped the fuel at idle.
With the fueling same as it was NA, I took it out and drove it and when I floored it the boost shot up very quickly, up to about 8psi and then the needle jumped up to 13psi so I let off.
Then I completely opened the vanes and took it out and got 2psi max with a little black smoke.
So I turned the fuel way up to the point that it was smoking heavily, I then got 3psi ::) woopy do.
My next test will be to turn the fuel down almost to were it was and close the vanes some, then with some tinkering I should be able to get to my target of 10psi max (for now ;D).
I have a small seep of oil coming out were I brazed the fitting into the pan >:(. I hate taking the oil pan off.
For some reason I had oil on the outside of the intake mani below the inlet.
Tomorrow I hope to be driving it again.
Next project will be to perfect this setup (read, fix all oil and air leaks), then make a boost controller, which is gonna be tight because of the gasser intake mani.
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That's what I thought, I only ran it up to about 3600rpm.
I don't see any exhaust leaking under the hood. So I guess that means it must be an intake leak, strangely, with the vanes closed I can hit 4psi @ idle so it seems like a leak would show up easily.
I'll have to experiment tomorrow, I'll update when I find out more. Thanks
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Well I closed the vanes, set the idle to 1550rpm so I got almost a pound of boost.
Then I crawled under and started spraying everything with soap.
I found that the turbo/exhaust manifold joint is leaking a little bit, just enough to foam the soap.
Also the intake mani is leaking at this joint:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit078.jpg)
Strangely enough I also have oil leaking out here to ???.
I'll unbolt it and try to flatted the sealing surface some more and maybe stack another gasket in there.
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(bangs head on desk)....why can't I post? I have lots of questions but when I write it down it won't post, aaarrrgg >:(
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aarrrg. I can write anything but what I need to say, (lays twitching on the floor)
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Use lubricated 80 grit paper on something flat to smooth all the mating surfaces until they are flat. Use a light smear of ultra copper on assembly. The oil is from your crank vent. It appears that you don't have an oil separator, but just a normal n/a valve cover.
Andrew
You mean to flatten the intake AND exhaust surfaces?
Correct, how important is an oil separator? duh, I guess I can tell by all the oil in the intake ::).
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Man I can only write little short stuff!
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One little question, will the turbo leak oil into the intake hose worse if I run it hard before the oil is all the way up to temp?
Andrew, have you actually wired the vanes fully opened and verified that a 1.6 will still make boost?
I thought of that with the vanes fully opened it "could" be a very effective "wastegate". Just because the boost can fully extends at 15psi during testing out of car doesn't really mean the vanes have opened completely, it only means they've opened enough to regulate it to 15psi.
I edited my question so hopefully it makes sense now.
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Thanks Andrew, looks like I'll be pulling parts off again and improving the gasket surfaces. :(
Yes, I have run a VNT17 with the vanes fully open on a 1.6 and it will easily put out 15+ psi. Without added wastegate control it's not possible to regulate boost lower than that.
So you mean the only way to not go over 15+ is by backing the smoke screw out or letting off the go pedal ::)?
I'm not trying to ask annoying/too many questions I just want to understand all this, (and get my car back on the road :D)
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This is were I think I was loosing exhaust pressure, I added the nonmatching bolts, the unbolted holes were next to each other before.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit110.jpg)
The turbine, looks fine to me.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit104.jpg)
The PO mustuv cleaned compressor wheel.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit116.jpg)
I thought I found a veerryy small leak all the way around this flange but I think it was just boiling the soapy water, you can also see where my thermocouple goes.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit111.jpg)
I put gasket sealer on the intake mani/head so that BETTER not leak, I'll also be putting it on all the turbo sealing surfaces.
The shaft has a small amount of side to side play but I think it's fine.....or maybe that's another reason why I get oil in the intake :(.
EDIT: Seems to me if this was leaking there would be black leak marks outside the gasket area, the gasket has a plenty big hole in it, barely small enough actually.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit118.jpg)
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I'm at a complete loss,
I removed the exhaust mani and turbo and checked/cleaned all mating surfaces, put ultra copper on everything and I even took the vanes out and made sure nothing was out of place.
I get a huuuuuge cloud of black smoke and about 3-4 psi boost with the vanes wide opened. I didn't put the DP into the stock exhaust this time either, so the exhaust is a short 2.25", and exits in front of the shifter.
Can you guys who've installed these hear the turbo at all times? I can hear it at idle w/ the vanes opened real easy then as I push the go pedal it gets too high for my ears to hear. With full power on I can't hear it at all.
I'll go blow compressed air into the intake mani now and see if there is a leak, I doubt there is since I got 13 psi vanes closed.
I'll post what I find.
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Hi, I confess I haven't read every post in this thread, but it strikes me from some of your latest pictures that the clearances between the turbine and compressor wheels and their housings is way too large. I would think that all of the boost and exhaust gasses are slipping past the wheels. This could easily explain the lack of boost.
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Hi, I confess I haven't read every post in this thread, but it strikes me from some of your latest pictures that the clearances between the turbine and compressor wheels and their housings is way too large. I would think that all of the boost and exhaust gasses are slipping past the wheels. This could easily explain the lack of boost.
You have a good point, I have never had a turbo before and I've never had the chance to study one so I didn't see that as a problem.
I wonder what the clearance is supposed to be?
Anyways I just checked for intake leaks and there are none, the hose going from turbo to intake is rather stretchy. I blew 20psi into the intake and it slowly leaked out around the rings, not what I'd expect a leak to do. Here's a pic of my stretchy hose:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit114.jpg)
I don't think stretching can affect boost though, might just cause a bit of lag is all.
I'm gonna surf the web and try finding the clearance limits I'll post my findings.......
P.S. Don't laugh too hard at my intake hose ::)
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I did discover one interesting bit, when I drove it with only the 2.25" DP the turbo spooled MUCH faster. Even at idle I could hear it and a tiny blip of the throttle had it singin'.
Also, with the vanes wide open, max boost was 4psi and after I reconnected the rest of the exhaust (1.5") max boost went down to 2psi and I got very little whine at idle.
So after I fix my boost problem I'll for sure get a 2.25" exhaust all the way back 8).
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Yup, freeflowing exhaust is good. Still, if your wheel to housing clearance was correct in your turbo you'd quadruple your max boost with the vanes fully open.
Yeah, fixing the clearance is definitely next and then a big exhaust, I almost got burned out pullin' the turbo so much so I'm just gonna drive it for now.
I have some other projects that I need to do first too, nothing very big just stuff I've been putting off.
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Update: The new prothe center section fixed the clearance problem but not the lack of boost problem. With it I got 1-2 more psi.
Yesterday I took off the whole exhaust system from the DP back (first time with the new turbo center), very loud and droning, 5 psi max revving up to 4700rpm floored with some smoke, EGT's quickly climb to 1250F and that's when I back out.
Before I installed the turbo the egt's could hit 1150F at the highest and with plenty of smoke. Since the install I've turned the fuel down because it got to hot.
The funny thing here is with the vanes closed I can get 10psi just revving it in neutral, that's definitely higher since I put in the new center.
So could someone varify or set me straight on this? The AFN TDI made 110HP and the ALH made 90HP, both with the VNT-15. The only difference is the ALH had the US spec turbo and the AFN had the euro turbo with the separating mani. So I wonder if the A/R has something to do with it?
The other thing I've wondered is if the euro spec vnt can open it's vanes more for a more free flowing system when decelerating? If this is the case then I'll never get good boost untill I hook up a control system.
Sorry this is so long.......
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if there was air going through the turbo and it was spinning, it should have been boosting. when i bought my audi, it had soo many exhaust leaks that i thought for sure that the turbo wouldnt even spool, but once i got it revved up a little bit it would still spool a little bit, not much tho. 4 of the 5 manifold gaskets were blown out bad and the gasket behind the turbo was bad.
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I've been driving the last few days with only the DP and the vanes wide opened, the turbo is very loud. It spools up fast and the loud, easy-to-hear whistle is out of hearing range before the guage starts climbing.
Can you hear the whistle at full boost?
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oh hell yea, the more i push the smoke pedal, the more it screams. eventually, right before full boost, it screams almost the same sound as a G charger, not quite as loud. but yea, as long as my turbo is spoolin, you can definitely tell its there. do you have boost yet finally? should have tons...
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With only the 2.25" dp and the rest yanked I get about 5psi max with the vanes opened.
Well I don't know what's up, my turbo screams right up and quickly gets so high pitch I can no longer hear it.
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I'm starting to wonder if I'm loosing flow/pressure from using a long 1.5" turbo/intake mani hose. ::)
After looking at this: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11698.0 and seeing how big of turbo he can spool I must have real problems if I can't spool a little vnt. >:(
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i used to have a rabbit radiator rigged up as an intercooler, worked alright. still got 18psi out of it. but when i just had it non IC, the boost hose was about 4 feet long to go from my turbo to intake mani. then it would run alot more boost too. and the intake mani before the IC was on there, it would burn your hand if you touched it. now with the IC, its never warmm, always ice cold.
but i doubt you are losing boost because of your hose. the only reason you lose boost from a hose, is if the hose has a hole in it. i had a boost leak for a long time after i plumbed in my 740 IC. it was right after the turbo, but it would still boost to 15 psi. if you took all the boost pipes and hoses i have and mesure there length, i bet the air has to travel 8 or 9 feet to go from the turbo to get to the intake port on the head.
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Thanks I'll rule out the hose then.
I really should stop complaining untill I install this, in case it's not clear in the pic, the cable housing retainer is attached to the boost can rod and the rod/triangle piece slide in the bracket. Here's the pic:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/VNTcontrolsystem3.jpg)
The only problem is if the vanes have to be partway closed to get the boost I'm after the turbo might be overspeeding the whole time and I wouldn't know it. grrrrr :(
I undid the compressor intake and outlet hoses and it acts the same, I didn't drive it for fear I'd suck a rock through it. I might've not been able to hear the turbo since the engine is so loud without the exhaust on, when I close the vanes in neutral and rev it I can get about 10psi and can hear the turbo real well.
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you dont need to close the vanes at all to get boost. i have my vanes wide open and still get 25psi out of a half worn out turbo. you should be making enough boost to make a nice sized head shaped dent in your hood...
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Ok I finally got a 2.5" straight exhaust pipe installed, so it goes 2.25" DP into a 2.5" pipe with no muffler.
I haven't done much tinkering lately but I did turn the fuel waaaay up to see what would happen, it topped out at 8psi boost, some smoke and 1350F egt that's when I back off.
I could definitely feel the boost kick in, but to get more I'll need to close the vanes a tiny bit.....or would a intercooler help? I seems like the little bit of boost I get is just enough to burn more fuel and cause high egt's so maybe a IC would help cool the egt's some.
I didn't test it very much like that since I didn't want to turn the underside black, now I can test it better.
I'll post pics of the exhaust as soon as I get my hands on a camera.......
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8 psi is sad with a VNT. there has got to be something wrong with it. HAS TO! i just got my rabbit runnin again yesterday, and it still boosts to 25 psi, and i have a muffler. i lost about 5 psi boost when i muffed it, but atleast the turbo doesnt draw soo much unwanted attention. if you could make your turbo have 15 psi, you would be like "HOLY FU*K, this thing friggen rips." they dont even really dump more fuel till around 10 psi, then its like a big, fat hit...
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yea check your impeller shaft for play. I lost mega boost when I had a sloppy bearing then it went bang and I lunched the whole damn thing >:(
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yea check your impeller shaft for play. I lost mega boost when I had a sloppy bearing then it went bang and I lunched the whole damn thing >:(
I'm running a 2-3 month old center section so it better be good still......
Today I turned the max fuel screw up as far as it would go before I ran out of idle adjustment. It's not as smoky as before the turbo was installed ???, even off boost.
Anyways I can get 10psi and the smoke almost starts to clear and then the egt's hit 1350F and I back out.
It's weird though, I have no LDA or stop pin so I control all the fueling with my foot, I can hold the egt's at 1100F and the boost will sit at 1-2psi then if I slowly push the pedal more the boost jumps up to 5-10psi and the egt's climb just as quick.
This is lame :(
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On my friend's quantum with VNT-17, even with the vanes wide open boost will go above 20 psi without any visible smoke and EGTs will not ever go above 900° even on an extended hill. There's still something not right with your setup. I'm not sure what it is, but you shouldn't be getting the smoke and EGTs without the boost.
Im with you on this one. well, and just for the fact that i know what a VNT should do.
my center section is at least 20k miles old, cause thats what just i have put on it. i think the jetta it came off of had somewhere around 125k miles, so, my center section has about 150k on it, no vain control, and it still spools quick enough and makes lots of boost. are you POSITIVE???? that you dont have a gigantic boost leak? or your timing really f***ed up?
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On my friend's quantum with VNT-17, even with the vanes wide open boost will go above 20 psi without any visible smoke and EGTs will not ever go above 900° even on an extended hill. There's still something not right with your setup. I'm not sure what it is, but you shouldn't be getting the smoke and EGTs without the boost.
Im with you on this one. well, and just for the fact that i know what a VNT should do.
my center section is at least 20k miles old, cause thats what just i have put on it. i think the jetta it came off of had somewhere around 125k miles, so, my center section has about 150k on it, no vain control, and it still spools quick enough and makes lots of boost. are you POSITIVE???? that you dont have a gigantic boost leak? or your timing really f***ed up?
Well.....as for leaks I plugged the compressor inlet and pumped the intake mani to 15psi for an hour or more. I sprayed soap on everything and with the hoist I could lift it up and walk under so it was a thorough inspection, the only leak was the slight leaking of the rings.
I'm very new to turbos so I'm not sure what a boost leak would sound like but I've noticed at full pedal there's the turbo whistle and a sound like a jet engine at takeoff power.
I'm sure the timing is good, it starts and runs perfect.
The only thing I can think of is where the airoduct hose goes into the compressor it isn't a good fit, the airoduct is 2" and the inlet is 1.75" and the hose has to make a sharp bend so it could be pinching itself off at boost. ??? I need to get some silicone elbows but that stuff has to be ordered and cost quite a bit.
Thanks for the help guys ;D
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you know how an air compressor sounds when you have just an air nozzle on the end? sounds like rushing air. there should be the whistle from a turbo, but it shouldnt sound like a wind storm. only the whistle should get louder, there should be no "air blowing from somewhere at a high rate of speed" sound. but if you pressurized the intake for over an hour, you would have found a boost leak if there were one.
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Well I feel really stupid :(
I decided to check for preturbine exhaust leaks, guess what I found...... ::)
I sealed the tailpipe and blew about 15psi into it and the stupid little pipe plug that I used to plug the egr port is leaking bad.
Here's an old pic of the port,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/Rabbit069.jpg)
The plug (not installed in this pic) was too small so it went way in and the square part that the wrench goes on is almost flush with the port.
So can I just leave the pipe plug in and seal it up with braze? I've heard all the bad story's about cast iron cracking but when I drive the rabbit I get egt anywere from 250F-1350F in a very short time and the mani hasn't cracked yet so I don't see why brazing it should hurt it especially if I heat/cool it slow.
Thought's??
EDIT: I just brazed it. I removed it from the engine and slowly heated it, brazed it, then cooled it slowly with the torch and so far it hasn't cracked. ;D ;D
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just MIG weld it. thats what i did to the port on my VNT. cut it off and welded a patch on. no special heating or cooling or anything.
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Wow I am sick of this, not a bit of change.
I started it and the idle was a little low so I used the max fuel screw to bump it up a bit.
When I drove it there was maaybe a half pound increase in boost and the egt hit 1250F easy, I think the extra boost and higher egt are from turning the fuel up that little bit. There's just a touch of smoke.
Before running it I checked to make sure my braze sealed it and it did, I also put ultra copper on all the gasket surfaces so I doubt they're leaky.
The turbo sounds good, at idle with the vanes opened I get a loud whistle
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yea, but do you get 25+ psi like your supposed to?
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yea, but do you get 25+ psi like your supposed to?
haha......I think I hit 4psi >:( My egt probe was leaking a tiny bit so I fixed that too and now I'm messin' around trying to think of every possible thing that could mess up my boost so bad.........
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ya know andrew, i was thinking the same thing. thats the only other thing i can think of.
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I know you got a new center section but perhaps it does not fit your housing properly.
Could be, that would stink though since I paid almost 300$ with shipping. The turbine wheel does go into the housing far enough.....come to think of it I actually put the new wheels into my old center so the spacing "should" be right.
The other thing I'll fix first is the compressor intake hose, I think it could be pinching off and resticting airflow. I welded up an elbow yesterday but haven't installed it yet......
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who knows if those wheels were made to go in a garrett center section tho. thats a chinese center you bought and it could have completely different dimensions.
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I know you got a new center section but perhaps it does not fit your housing properly.
As near as I can tell by looking through the compressor inlet and turbine outlet it looks good, of course I can't see the larger diameter of the wheels though.
The other thing I'll fix first is the compressor intake hose, I think it could be pinching off and resticting airflow.
Well a few days ago I welded up an elbow for the compressor inlet and while I was installing it I discovered the airbox had about a pint of dog food in it ::). Dumb mouses. I had noticed an increase in egt about a week before that, it's only been a month or so since I've had the airbox out so it hasn't been full for long.
When I drove it, I was once again sorely disappointed >:( 5-6psi, a slight increase.
It's weird, if I floor it the boost rises to 5ish and then kinda drops off at like 4200rpm (governor?) but the egt keeps going up ???. I get very little smoke in the upper rpm range.
I advanced the static timing 'till it rattles a bit but it didn't help at all :'(
who knows if those wheels were made to go in a garrett center section tho. thats a chinese center you bought and it could have completely different dimensions.
It's advertised as a replacement for the stock center. :-\
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you already messed it up or took it apart or something didnt you? i cant remember what you did to it, didnt it not fit? i would never buy another turbo from prothe.
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I just put the wheels from the new center into my old center and they fit perfect, no end to end or side to side play.
Prothe's center wouldn't fit without enlarging my exhaust housing and drilling the three alignment pin holes in the center section. ::)
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then appearently his center section isnt a direct bolt in piece like he claims. i would have mailed that thing right back to him. i want a VNT to fit and work right. whole reason i got a VNT. otherwise i would just K24 it.
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then appearently his center section isnt a direct bolt in piece like he claims. i would have mailed that thing right back to him. i want a VNT to fit and work right. whole reason i got a VNT. otherwise i would just K24 it.
Now of course I wish I had sent it back since it didn't fix anything :(.
Last night I closed the vanes a little bit and at full power I can get 10psi and the egt max was about 1100F instead of 1250 @ 5psi, still not much power. I feel like scrapping this turbo and getting a k14(?) since I mainly want low end/midrange boost.
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Well I turned the fuel all the way up and can get 12-13psi, very little smoke once the boost comes up, the egt still gets to 1250F easily >:(. The vanes are just a little bit towards closed.
Today I was in a hurry so I cruised at 78-83mph for about 15 miles :o, the boost hung at 4psi and the egt was at 900-950F.
The power is MUCH better, I can actually feel the boost kick in :D. There's a hill here that starts at a T in the road so it's a good test. Back when I was NA I would be going 58-60mph at the top, now I can get up to 70mph without flooring it the whole way, (because of high egt).
This turbo is really confusing, I'm starting to think that the vanes open more on the euro vnt that a US spec one ::). Maybe I'll post a vid of how the boost acts........
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All of the performance characteristics I have described before were with Euro non-integral manifold VNTs. Here's a recap. Stock fueling with vanes fully open EGTs never get above 1000°F and boost will easily shoot above 20 psi at higher rpms with no smoke what so ever. Vanes fully open the turbo is a little faster acting than a K14 but with lower EGTs. With vanes closed, boost happens pretty much instantly. I'm sorry to say, but from what you are describing, it is still very much not right.
Rats, I thought I had it figured out :-[.
So if boost can go past 20psi with stock fueling then how can you ever add more fueling without blowing up the turbo/over boosting?
I really wish there was a turbo guy around here I could bring it to.......
Maybe I should put my stock TD intake manifold on, I don't know why that would change anything though.
Yeah with the vanes closed I have hit 8-10psi in neutral. I wonder if the previous owner took the vanes out and somehow got 'em in wrong, I know he tried cleaning the wheels off so he for sure had it that far apart.
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The stock air filter is big enough ain't it?
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Well I am nearing the point of tears :'(, so I'm coming up with all kinds of weird ideas, here's one.
Could my flywheels timing mark be slightly off from were it should be? That would mess up the cam timing and some have said that misajusted valves (that's sort of like an out of time cam ::)) can cause a lack of boost so it's possible......hopefully.
It does run good though, a bit clacky when cold but at running temp it sounds good. Thanks
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Yeah that's what I thought too ::) I do know that at tdc the valves will open about halfway before hitting the piston. I found that out from adjusting the clearance and trying to push the lifters down with the crank at tdc ::)
I don't know what else to check next.......maybe see if the wheels are sticking into the housings enough or something. ::)
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you need to be getting over 25 psi with that thing. my car is a rocket and i dont have the vanes hooked up at all. i really should hook them up.
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obviously you have a problem with you turbo. unfortunate that you spent alot of money without doing your research first. fortunately you have your oil and air/exhaust plumbing sorted. why not try a different turbo vnt or otherwise to get your boost on say a junkyard turbo? contact prothe about your incompatibility issue.
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well what ever happened here?
and what did you do about your rear, passenger's motor mount to make this thing fit?
and what about the oil drain?
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well what ever happened here?
and what did you do about your rear, passenger's motor mount to make this thing fit?
and what about the oil drain?
Yanked the turbo, the current configuration is in my sig.
MK1's don't have that problem but either way this is the euro style vnt with the removeable manifold and it sits higher up so it would probably work fine with a MK2.
Threaded/brazed a 90 degree street (I think) pipe fitting into the oil pan and used a short chunk of hose and a flange that I made.
Some day I want to get the turbo professionally tested/repaired and try again but for now I'm doin' fine.
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Where the hell am I gonna get a euro vnt?? Anyway I have a vnt I'm just gonna cut my mount I got one from the junkyard today.. Just need to figure my oil lines. An find out if a 2.0 intake manifold will work (of course not) or if a longitudinal mounted 85 fox intake will work.. Then I'm boltin on. Even if I only get 5 psi I'm only doin it for to sound mostly an hopefully a few more mpg