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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 79rabbit4dr on April 21, 2009, 01:40:51 pm
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I've got a set of intake and exhaust manifolds from an MKI gasser that I want to retrofit onto my 1.6l NA diesel at the same time i'm doing my head gasket replacement - might as well. The trouble i'm running into is mostly just how to set up an intake system off the gasser intake manifold since there used to be a throttle body there. I've got pictures of the head (removed) with the stock diesel exhaust set up and then the gasser set up bolted in place. Who has done this and can post pictures of the end result, or better yet the entire process? Here is what i'm working with.
the manifolds, gas on the left, diesel on the right;
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4plk6Y30I/AAAAAAAACAw/FlZIRO1NLpg/s800/DSC08941.JPG)
the head;
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4pptAGNbI/AAAAAAAACA0/6jMuBmapWPc/s800/DSC08942.JPG)
w/ the diesel mani's;
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4qGSQfE-I/AAAAAAAACCY/HQCQ9Z4aJLQ/s800/DSC08950.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4qJn77CzI/AAAAAAAACBk/BL98dLRk3Mk/s800/DSC08951.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4qNXZlA0I/AAAAAAAACBo/CUBlLvmB83U/s800/DSC08952.JPG)
the gasser mani's;
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4p4sPHCoI/AAAAAAAACCQ/iABqfPrl-jc/s800/DSC08946.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4p1BcF79I/AAAAAAAACCI/ydtc06U8YaM/s800/DSC08945.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4pxN3jM4I/AAAAAAAACBA/LJgNZuJ-ovg/s800/DSC08944.JPG)
where the throttle body bolts up;
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4p8YsJfaI/AAAAAAAACBQ/ul75mXwiELc/s800/DSC08947.JPG)
will I have to plug these, remove them, what to do?;
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4p_34O-mI/AAAAAAAACBU/qIGn09Z7IK4/s800/DSC08948.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4qC2a7_mI/AAAAAAAACBY/uGW6X03_mdU/s800/DSC08949.JPG)
HELP! :oops:
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oh, and I DO have the gasser throttle body, but even if I gutted it I think all the restrictions would just about cancel out any gains the manifold would produce, correct?
TB;
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SUCTP5JxGPI/AAAAAAAAB3I/timpHeFw-Mk/s800/DSC07750.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SUCTMUZiaJI/AAAAAAAAB3A/V6q281ZZ074/s800/DSC07749.JPG)
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for an NA use the diesel manifold, the gasser one is only an upgrade over the turbo diesel one.
I would use the diesel intake and the gasser exhaust, as it kicks the butt of the diesel one.
if you do use the gasser manifold the extra ports will have to be plugged, I tapped and plugged mine with pipe plugs, but for NA, you could probably just get some rubber caps for them.
as for the throttle body, I got a hole cut in a rectangular piece of steel and welded a piece of exhaust tubing into it to attach the intake plumbing to
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030004.jpg)
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(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/02.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/03.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/046-sml.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/047-sml.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/048-sml.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/09.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/10.jpg)
VW T3 (Vanagon) 1.9l AAZ with 1Y [also AEF, 1X] inlet manifold.
PWR Barrel charge cooler, slight mods to chassis to let it all bolt together.
K14 Hybrid turbo.
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(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/02.jpg)
any info on that adaptor?
EDIT:
saw you other thread, "Custom inlet manifold adapter in 2 1/4" to suit charge cooler piping"
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I had it made, seals with an O-ring, just like the plastic one I took off.
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I would still say that the gasser intake is only an upgrade on a turbo diesel, very few manifolds can beat the NA one for intake restriction.
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so I should just hang on to it until the day I TD it? :(
I just hate the plastic front part with those dumb clips. Would replacing the square filter inside for a cold air intake style one at the tip mess with air distribution to each cylinder?
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I would still say that the gasser intake is only an upgrade on a turbo diesel, very few manifolds can beat the NA one for intake restriction.
I agree. The A1 gasser intake is one of the bottlenecks on the gas engines. The NA diesel intake manifold has larger runners that all open into a huge plenum volume. But who knows? Maybe the subject of a dyno comparison?
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no, using the gasser manifold wont mess anything up, and if you intend to turbo it someday then putting the manifold on now is no problem.
I was just saying that you probably wont see any performance increase on an NA motor by throwing the gasser manifold on there.
as for the filter, you are right, being able to use a cone filter and get rid of the panel would definitely be a bonus, even if it doesn't get you any HP
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I would use the diesel intake and the gasser exhaust, as it kicks the butt of the diesel one.
That's what I would (and will) do
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yea but i'd definitely add a bigger snorkel. from what i have read too the diesel toilet bowl manifold actually has a bigger outlet on it than the gas toilet bowl and there isn't much of a gain from the swap. good luck either way, i remember when my na had an exhaust, it was terribly loud and very unique sounding. na's are loud cars tho, my rabbit with stock exhaust is much louder than my td with a techtonics exhaust
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the gasser dual outlet ex manifold is definitely an upgrade over the stock diesel (and gasser) single outlet manifolds.
the gasser intake will not flow as well as the NA diesel one, but will allow the use of a cone filter(which is nice in itself)
the NA cars are louder because they don't have the turbo acting as a muffler for the exhaust and the intake.
if you take the front off the NA airbox it gets LOUD!
do whatever, if you plan on going turbo at some point putting on the gasser intake now would probably be a good idea as it would make one less thing to have to do later.
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I was under the impression that both mani's would be upgrades from the stock diesel manis. When I do turbo it, i'll be pulling the whole motor so it won't be a big issue to put the gasser intake on then... and I may just get an aftermarket intake anyway... who knows.
Diesel intake and gasser exhaust it is... my wife will be happy about that since it means getting back to having the extra car sooner - since I don't have to fab up an adapter plate for the gasser intake.
Thanks guys!!! I'll post more pix of the final setup later tonight/tomorrow.
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Is this what you were thinking about when you mentioned eliminating the paper filter and using a cone filter?
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm124/maxfax3/DSCF1779.jpg)
I gotta get a better filter that fits properly but it seems to work okay as is, and no having to fight the plastic air box to change the air filter!!! I glued rubber vac line to the plastic to act as a gasket for the air box, easier than trying to cut the foam seal off an old filter... Pulled the little snorkel thing out of the box and jammed the rubber line on there and clamped it.. The rubber was the intake pipes from an older F-150, has the spring inside to keep it from collapsing...
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that is a neat idea, keep the better manifold and use a cone filter.
I like the ingenuity there.
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What about the g60 manifold?
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What about the g60 manifold?
I don't happen to have one of those lying around :? wanna give me one? :lol:
Is this what you were thinking about when you mentioned eliminating the paper filter and using a cone filter?
yeah, except my snorkel is oval -> round and goes passenger over the timing belt cover. I've got a modified funnel on the end of it to extend it right behind the head light - was hoping for a ram air intake style... i'll post pix tomorrow.
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I'm going to be using an A2 GTI intake manifold, and a flipped 1.6TD exhaust manifold. Anyone else with this combo have to clearance the manifolds so they fit? A quick mock-up shows that they don't fit without some massaging. :P
Brendan
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yeah, with the MK1 GTI I had to flip and do a fair amount of grinding of the TD exhaust manifold to get it to fit.
the shape of the exhaust flanges has to be changed and the support ribs on what used to be the bottom of the manifold had to be cut off.
worked pretty good though, it puts the turbo really close to the axle.
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(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/02.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/03.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/046-sml.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/047-sml.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/048-sml.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/09.jpg)
(http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/uploads/5/10.jpg)
VW T3 (Vanagon) 1.9l AAZ with 1Y [also AEF, 1X] inlet manifold.
PWR Barrel charge cooler, slight mods to chassis to let it all bolt together.
K14 Hybrid turbo.
that, right there, all those pictures.. that is beautiful work. i friggin love the mini a2w intercooler. thats a really sweet build.
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I would still say that the gasser intake is only an upgrade on a turbo diesel, very few manifolds can beat the NA one for intake restriction.
I agree. The A1 gasser intake is one of the bottlenecks on the gas engines. The NA diesel intake manifold has larger runners that all open into a huge plenum volume. But who knows? Maybe the subject of a dyno comparison?
are you high? diesel has bigger runners? compare a standard n/a diesel manifold to a manifold off a 87-92 EFI vw. the runners on the gasser manifold are HUGE. and they are tapered. the smallest point is where it bolts to the head, and the runners in the head are smaller anyway. but yea, dig one up, and do some eye balling.. the digifant intake is WAY WAY BETTER!
To the OP:
i would go with the gas manifold since you have it already, and you can just clamp a filter on it once you make an adapter, and do not just gut the TB.. if you do, make sure to use one off an 87 - 92 8 valve engine, or off a 88-94 16 valve engine. they all have way bigger throttle plates than the old TB you have there
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yeah, except my snorkel is oval -> round and goes passenger over the timing belt cover. I've got a modified funnel on the end of it to extend it right behind the head light - was hoping for a ram air intake style... i'll post pix tomorrow.
My snorkel is oval too... Took some work to get a round hose jammed on there... I would have preferred to route the intake tube similar to the original and have filter behind the headlight but I have heat exchangers and a fuel filter mounted there for wvo.. I thought about routing it down in front of the trans behind the starter but mud puddles fighten me...
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oh, and I DO have the gasser throttle body, but even if I gutted it I think all the restrictions would just about cancel out any gains the manifold would produce, correct?
TB;
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SUCTP5JxGPI/AAAAAAAAB3I/timpHeFw-Mk/s800/DSC07750.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/SUCTMUZiaJI/AAAAAAAAB3A/V6q281ZZ074/s800/DSC07749.JPG)
the only benefit of keeping the throttle body is for anti shudder when turning off the car, and an easy way of choking the engine in a run-away situation, but other than that pretty useless.
as for AWIC setups, i think they are superb, but are most costly...
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I would still say that the gasser intake is only an upgrade on a turbo diesel, very few manifolds can beat the NA one for intake restriction.
I agree. The A1 gasser intake is one of the bottlenecks on the gas engines. The NA diesel intake manifold has larger runners that all open into a huge plenum volume. But who knows? Maybe the subject of a dyno comparison?
are you high? diesel has bigger runners? compare a standard n/a diesel manifold to a manifold off a 87-92 EFI vw. the runners on the gasser manifold are HUGE. and they are tapered. the smallest point is where it bolts to the head, and the runners in the head are smaller anyway. but yea, dig one up, and do some eye balling.. the digifant intake is WAY WAY BETTER!
Are you? I've got an A1 CIS intake manifold (which is what the OP has, by the way, not a digi one) off an 85 rocco right here in front of me, and my old NA diesel intake. The gasser intake has small runners the size of the port at the bottom, just like the diesel one. But the diesel intake manifold runners get larger as they go up, and as I said before open up into an enormous plenum. How about you go dig one up and get your facts straight.
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Woah there! If you guys wanna fight take it to the Vortex. This forum is drama free. :D
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why do all you guys get soo butt hurt so easy? ive had 2 different topics pissed off at me for no reason this week. and uh,
Diesel intakes < Gas intakes
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how about a side by side comparison?
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4plk6Y30I/AAAAAAAACAw/FlZIRO1NLpg/s800/DSC08941.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4qGSQfE-I/AAAAAAAACCY/HQCQ9Z4aJLQ/s800/DSC08950.JPG)(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4p4sPHCoI/AAAAAAAACCQ/iABqfPrl-jc/s800/DSC08946.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4qNXZlA0I/AAAAAAAACBo/CUBlLvmB83U/s800/DSC08952.JPG)(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4pxN3jM4I/AAAAAAAACBA/LJgNZuJ-ovg/s800/DSC08944.JPG)
they look just about the same to me, maybe the diesel ones are a tiny bit bigger on the outside not sure about the inside dimensions all the way up.
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why do all you guys get soo butt hurt so easy? ive had 2 different topics pissed off at me for no reason this week. and uh,
Diesel intakes < Gas intakes
go change your tampon, the only one here that starting crap is you....try treating others with respect....so if if someone posts up something you dont like are we always going to have to hear your BS...??
if you dont know how to be polite to your fellow dieselheads, then stay off this forum until you learn.
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from the side by side pic, it looks like the diesel intake looks marginally better.......or about the same....to me not worth the work of the gas intake...
but i dont know......I MAY BE HIGH
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just to throw a wrench in this thread..
I believe the stock N/a exhaust is just as free flowing as the Gasser exhaust.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4plk6Y30I/AAAAAAAACAw/FlZIRO1NLpg/s800/DSC08941.JPG)
Sure the gasser has more defined runners in the manifold itself, but where it all gathers right above where it splits in to two pipes it is confronted with a turbulance causing "wall" so to speak. Now.. If you modify a toilet bowl exhaust downpipe and make it have a 2.5" exhaust manifold back you'll (in my mind) be better than the gasser exhaust. The gassers gotta pass the turbulance causing space between pipes, be forced in to small pipes, then open up in to the bigger ending, but not before taking an almost 90degree turn.
SO What im saying, is that the inner diameter of the diesel exhaust is already like 2.5-2.75" The only advantage the gasser would have is if you couldn't fabricate your own down pipe.
NOW this may just be another crazy Acid Trip, and I'm realllly high off my tree.. anyone care to have a discussion :P ? seriously though, from what ive seen.. diesel looks more free flowing
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just to throw a wrench in this thread..
I believe the stock N/a exhaust is just as free flowing as the Gasser exhaust.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9S7ulOGt3r8/Se4plk6Y30I/AAAAAAAACAw/FlZIRO1NLpg/s800/DSC08941.JPG)
Sure the gasser has more defined runners in the manifold itself, but where it all gathers right above where it splits in to two pipes it is confronted with a turbulance causing "wall" so to speak. Now.. If you modify a toilet bowl exhaust downpipe and make it have a 2.5" exhaust manifold back you'll (in my mind) be better than the gasser exhaust. The gassers gotta pass the turbulance causing space between pipes, be forced in to small pipes, then open up in to the bigger ending, but not before taking an almost 90degree turn.
SO What im saying, is that the inner diameter of the diesel exhaust is already like 2.5-2.75" The only advantage the gasser would have is if you couldn't fabricate your own down pipe.
NOW this may just be another crazy Acid Trip, and I'm realllly high off my tree.. anyone care to have a discussion :P ? seriously though, from what ive seen.. diesel looks more free flowing
I see what you're saying. I'm looking at a dual downpipe and the NA diesel swivel manifold. The diesel swivel manifold is not the same as the dreaded toilet bowl manifold on my Scirocco. The rocco manifold has all of the runners squeeze though a hole the size of an exhaust port, while the diesel one merges them together. Hmmmm..... I think you're right, with a bigger downpipe the stock exhaust manifold probably wouldn't be that bad.
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and uh ,im just going by my experiences.. i ran both manifolds both ways. both with and without boost going through them. and from my highly calibrated accelerometer sensors.. the gas manifold gives you better power. end of story. my car likes the gas manifold better. but that may be that its a 1.5, and not a 1.6 like most of you run. now please everybody, lets take the anger down a few notches, or just get rid of it completely.
btw, i was talking about intakes.
i like the tri-y design of the gasser exhaust
and...
are you sure thats a gasser exhaust manifold you got there? thats the exact same manifold i pulled off my car when i put the turbo on it. and ive seen quite a few other dual down pipe diesel manifolds.
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well, i've already got the gasser mani bolted on and the head in place so it's not coming off unless it's obviously worse - or if I HAVE to remove the head again for something.
Sounds like the conclusion is it's better to keep stock mani's on a NA and spend your money elsewhere (ie larger downpipe etc)... luckily I had them laying around so it wasn't a waste of money.
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are you sure thats a gasser exhaust manifold you got there? thats the exact same manifold i pulled off my car when i put the turbo on it. and ive seen quite a few other dual down pipe diesel manifolds.
I pulled one like that off a '79 rabbit w/ a 1.6CIS, my '82 rabbit 1.6D has a toilet bowl, I also have a '84 rabbit w/ a carbureted 1.7 with a toilet bowl. But IIRC my 77-84 diesel bentley shows both styles for the diesel, and the 77-84 gasser bentley also shows both styles too, I think the toilet bowl mustuv came on later models.
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Hmmmm..... I think you're right, with a bigger downpipe the stock exhaust manifold probably wouldn't be that bad.
Thats what im gonna run. Just take the small down pipe lob of the swivel connection, and then run a 2.5" straight back and dump the cherry bomb out the side :P:P
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I pulled one like that off a '79 rabbit w/ a 1.6CIS, my '82 rabbit 1.6D has a toilet bowl, I also have a '84 rabbit w/ a carbureted 1.7 with a toilet bowl. But IIRC my 77-84 diesel bentley shows both styles for the diesel, and the 77-84 gasser bentley also shows both styles too, I think the toilet bowl mustuv came on later models.
Yeah, I've seen several different variations of manifold and downpipe configurations in the different service manuals for these cars. In one of my manuals it shows a swivel type manifold with a merged collector and dual downpipe! I've never seen one of those in the flesh, but apparently something out there came with it.
the gas manifold gives you better power. end of story. my car likes the gas manifold better.
Which gas intake manifold did you use? Externally most of the non-crossflow ones are similar (except for the throttle body being on the other side of course) but some flow much more than others, some have more material for porting, etc.
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I pulled one like that off a '79 rabbit w/ a 1.6CIS, my '82 rabbit 1.6D has a toilet bowl, I also have a '84 rabbit w/ a carbureted 1.7 with a toilet bowl. But IIRC my 77-84 diesel bentley shows both styles for the diesel, and the 77-84 gasser bentley also shows both styles too, I think the toilet bowl mustuv came on later models.
Yeah, I've seen several different variations of manifold and downpipe configurations in the different service manuals for these cars. In one of my manuals it shows a swivel type manifold with a merged collector and dual downpipe! I've never seen one of those in the flesh, but apparently something out there came with it.
the gas manifold gives you better power. end of story. my car likes the gas manifold better.
Which gas intake manifold did you use? Externally most of the non-crossflow ones are similar (except for the throttle body being on the other side of course) but some flow much more than others, some have more material for porting, etc.
ive got a manifold off a RV code Digifant 1 engine from a 90 - 92 jetta/golf. when it was on my jetta, i had a k&n intake system on it, and it friggen roared. so when that engine came out of my jetta, i had this manifold laying around, and i was never really fond of the turbo intake, as the runners are pretty much right angles. and the digi manifold had way bigger runners than the n/a and t/d manifolds. another user got pretty mad at me because he says the n/a diesel manifolds have bigger runners. i had to port my head a bit just to gasket match it with the intake. but whatever, i accidently put a gas intake on my engine, loved it, and will never go back. and no one can tell me otherwise.. until i build my own custom intake :twisted:
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yes the one pictured on the left is for sure the original exhaust mani off my '79 gasser.
I was thinking... I wonder if the HUGE volume of the diesel intake plenum could actually cause the air to diffuse more so than in the smaller gas intake plenum which might direct the air more efficiently :?:
I know we were debating which one was bigger, but maybe it's about which one is more effective :?:
I have no answers or data on that, just thoughts in my head :roll:
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i dont see how it can flow too horribly well, theres a plate that comes down off the roof of the intake and pretty much blocks half of all the ports. i think its something to do with the breather system.. but whatever it is, its retarded.
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ive got a manifold off a RV code Digifant 1 engine from a 90 - 92 jetta/golf. when it was on my jetta, i had a k&n intake system on it, and it friggen roared. so when that engine came out of my jetta, i had this manifold laying around, and i was never really fond of the turbo intake, as the runners are pretty much right angles. and the digi manifold had way bigger runners than the n/a and t/d manifolds. another user got pretty mad at me because he says the n/a diesel manifolds have bigger runners. i had to port my head a bit just to gasket match it with the intake. but whatever, i accidently put a gas intake on my engine, loved it, and will never go back. and no one can tell me otherwise.. until i build my own custom intake :twisted:
Agreed that the turbo intake sucks. And all of this is apples to oranges anyhow since the earlier CIS manifolds (like the OP has) sucked compared to the later digi manifolds, particularly the G60 one. For the record, I wasn't mad, just setting the record straight for the stuff the OP actually has.
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the earlier CIS manifolds (like the OP has) sucked compared to the later digi manifolds, particularly the G60 one.
this is a digifant manifold, right?
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8143/dscf0095mediumcl1.jpg)
what do the G60 ones look like? I might try to find one at a junk yard.
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There's a G60 in the for sale section to look at.
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it will be harder to find the g60 intake in a junkyard....but not impossible
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my g60 intake, I'll try to find some better pictures:
(http://smellslikefries.com/vwpics/posts/motor1.jpg)
RabbitGTDguy used it on his TDI, with the g60 boost return section as a transition to round. I've got it on my 1.6 and it's a great cheap solution.
heres another thread with more pictures
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11900
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WOAH!!!
ive never seen the back side of a G60 intake..
those things are the ***!
im gonna get me one of those. my runners enter the plenum from the back, so this one will be less prone to interference.
i edit all my suggestions, dont go with the digi manifold, use the G60 one.
shorter runners for sure, looks like they could be a bit larger too.
anyway, the G60 mani looks like a way nicer piece than my digi manifold.
congrats on someone using one.
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funny, the guys in the G60 forum on the vortex talk about using a early CIS manifold to get better flow.
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funny, the guys in the G60 forum on the vortex talk about using a early CIS manifold to get better flow.
aww hell.. I was hoping this thread would ANSWER my questions instead of adding more confusion...
someone send me a G60 intake mani and i'll dyno test all three... you can even have the mani back afterward, I just want to know!
i'm thinking they're all about the same if everyone is saying the grass is always greener with the other manifold, but it'd be nice to get some data on it.
Seriously though, anybody want to pitch in (money/manifold) and help me put an end to the madness!?!? Manifold remains your property, cash used for dyno costs/shipping.
I've got a completely stock 1.6L NA and i'm willing to do the labor. I'll have it dyno tested with all three manifolds and post the findings.
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well, I don't know which is best.
I really don't think the stock manifold is choking an N/A that much, I would really prefer it on a non turbo because of the long runners, really helps with the low speed power.
as far as forced induction the gas ones are such a clear upgrade over the diesel one I don't think it would really make much of a difference which gas manifold you get, it is going to be light years better.
I think the reason the G60 guys like the early cis one better is that the angle it enters the head is closer to the angle of the runners in the head than the G60 one, but how much difference that makes, who knows.
dyno testing would be the way to go.
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Just an idea. But you could use a TB adapter from a 16v to any 8v manifold instead. :roll:
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/PICT0865.jpg)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/PICT0864.jpg)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/PICT0863.jpg)
P/N is 027 133 070.
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would probably work good for N/A or low boost applications, but the oval makes for uneven clamping force around the adapter, prone to leaking.
(according to a buddy with a turbo CIS gasser)
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you could use a TB adapter from a 16v to any 8v manifold
got one of those I could buy off ya Josh?
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Sure. $50 billion :shock: :lol: .
IM me.
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Well if the one above won't work, how about this one.
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/PICT0866.jpg)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/PICT0867.jpg)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/PICT0868.jpg)
This can be bought from BBM.
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Well if the one above won't work, how about this one. This can be bought from BBM.
got a link?
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since I have an 83 GTI that I drive daily and the guy I bought it off of knows everything about the CIS deal. The intakes were really similar, but the TBs are different from what I gathered from him. The later styles just had one flap and no secondary, the intake was a little different. He had always said that the newer style was better for performance in the gassers, but the older would yeild a little better milage. For a diesel probably won't matter just plasma cut a piece of steel and a peice of pipe and you should be good :wink:
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Just leave the intake off!! Period end of story, no worries about restrictions! :lol:
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I think your friend was talking about the Weber/Redline throttle body.
It had one big throttle plate.
I found a link for an adapter,
http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/products/1949/MkII_T_Body_Adaptor_to_3
Hope this helps.
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funny, the guys in the G60 forum on the vortex talk about using a early CIS manifold to get better flow.
aww hell.. I was hoping this thread would ANSWER my questions instead of adding more confusion...
someone send me a G60 intake mani and i'll dyno test all three... you can even have the mani back afterward, I just want to know!
i'm thinking they're all about the same if everyone is saying the grass is always greener with the other manifold, but it'd be nice to get some data on it.
Seriously though, anybody want to pitch in (money/manifold) and help me put an end to the madness!?!? Manifold remains your property, cash used for dyno costs/shipping.
I've got a completely stock 1.6L NA and i'm willing to do the labor. I'll have it dyno tested with all three manifolds and post the findings.
What's your turn-around time?
I have a g60 manifold and throttle body which I gutted and welded up to make an adapter but it's only 2" ID, so I think I'll pick up one of those BBM adapters.
I also thought one of the concerns with the n/a diesel manifold was flow differential and specifically poor flow to the middle cylinders? This of course is all heresay as I've never seen any real numbers.
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What's your turn-around time?
well, I won't get my head studs until tue/wed and i'm leaving thu/fri for cali until the 10th.
What I'd really like to do is run each mani through a full tank of fuel as well as dyno-run-marathon them (all three mani's in one day, one after another) at the end after i've "DD'd" each mani through a tank. That's probably longer than you want to be seperated from your manifold but I think it'd give us all sure-fire information.
EDIT:
plus I don't have the funds right this moment for a full day of dyno runs but i'm open to donations :D
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Well, I won't get my head studs until tue/wed and i'm leaving thu/fri for cali until the 10th.
What I'd really like to do is run each mani through a full tank of fuel as well as dyno-run-marathon them (all three mani's in one day, one after another) at the end after i've "DD'd" each mani through a tank. That's probably longer than you want to be seperated from your manifold but I think it'd give us all sure-fire information.
EDIT:
plus I don't have the funds right this moment for a full day of dyno runs but i'm open to donations :D
Where in cali?
Let me know when you have funds for this type of project. I probably won't actually get around to installing the manifold/building my cai for a couple months. And I would love to see some hard numbers on this topic.
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southern; from Valencia to San Diego. It's my cousin's Wedding and my parents Anniversary so I'm not calling the shots :roll: Where are you at?
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Here's how much I had to 'clearance' my vnt15 egr port to work.
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb280/kc0kbh/P1060217.jpg)
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my g60 intake, I'll try to find some better pictures:
(http://smellslikefries.com/vwpics/posts/motor1.jpg)
RabbitGTDguy used it on his TDI, with the g60 boost return section as a transition to round. I've got it on my 1.6 and it's a great cheap solution.
heres another thread with more pictures
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11900
I need more info on this please, I have a g60 manifold and I would love to use it! Thanks in advance
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That BBM piece looked great................. until I saw the price. Holy hell $50!!!!??? I got a welder now, think I'll try and make one out of scrap first. :P
Brendan
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Ok, so I'm going with the gasser exhaust manifold for sure, where should I put the EGT probe? The 4-2-1 design is great, except it would put the probe so far away from the block by the time it merges into one tube... ideas?
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what do you need an EGT probe in a N/A motor for?
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what do you need an EGT probe in a N/A motor for?
i've seen a burnt toyota 2.4D engine. no turbo on it. guy burned the valves by probably having the thing flat out for a very long time... that mixed with improper timing and some bad nozzles could have been enough to push it over the edge. don't know if there was any modification to the pump though... so they're not really a requirement on an N/A, but just a little added insurance for someone tuning it.
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what do you need an EGT probe in a N/A motor for?
thought it was even more important to have one on the N/A because there isn't as much air flow to cool it down... i'm wanting to advance the timing and turn up the fuel screw a little more. If it's nothing to worry about, great, that'll save me the $$ for all that crap.
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take all that money you are wasting on souping up your n/a engine, and buy a turbo.
im not trying to bash on your build, by any means..
but ive always thought that hot rodding a n/a was like polishing a turd.
it might be prettier to look at , but its still a turd none the less.
take and drop a turbo in there, or even a bottle of nitrous.
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Turning up the fuel on a NA helps a bit for those not wanting to dump money into it.
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take all that money you are wasting on souping up your n/a engine, and buy a turbo.
im not trying to bash on your build, by any means..
but ive always thought that hot rodding a n/a was like polishing a turd.
it might be prettier to look at , but its still a turd none the less.
take and drop a turbo in there, or even a bottle of nitrous.
propane injection in a NA is sweet. You'll need the EGT, but the propane is a catalyst to the diesel and you gain some power and torque, by getting a better burn.
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take all that money you are wasting on souping up your n/a engine, and buy a turbo.
im not trying to bash on your build, by any means..
but ive always thought that hot rodding a n/a was like polishing a turd.
it might be prettier to look at , but its still a turd none the less.
take and drop a turbo in there, or even a bottle of nitrous.
propane injection in a NA is sweet. You'll need the EGT, but the propane is a catalyst to the diesel and you gain some power and torque, by getting a better burn.
bullsh*t...
i played with every aspect of my n/a before i turbo'd it.
i used to be anti-turbo bad..
superchargers were like gods balls.
propane is a waste of time on a n/a i think.
i had propane on my car for a while, and it just wasnt worth it.
aside from dumping a giles pump in the engine, i did everything else.
opened it up, better intake and exhaust. well, rather a lack of exhaust for its last bit of life as a n/a.
still, even with everything i did + propane, it wasnt that good of a gain.
you still had to measure the 0-60 time in minutes.
i wouldnt EVER play with propane on a n/a again trying to get performance out of it.
but, i know a few people who are using propane as a supplemental fuel and are getting rediculious mileage.
35 mpg from a 6.6 duramax is no small feat.