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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: truckinwagen on April 06, 2009, 01:56:32 pm
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I am working on a couple performance built motors, but only have the early blocks with 11mm head bolts, I am wondering if 11mm studs would be able to hold lots of HP and boost.
I dont want to have to try and find new blocks, should I even worry about it, just run 11mm ARP studs, or should I have the blocks tapped for 12mm studs?(of which I have set)
I am planning on supercharging one motor with a G60 and turboing the other with my K24 to compare power output, driving characteristics etc... looking for 150+HP from each build
what do you guys think about running 11mm studs on such builds?
-Owen
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i don't know what all is actually different on the blocks but i think the 12mm bolts actually go much deeper, i don't know if you can just drill out an 11mm block. i don't think you will see 150hp with a k24, i even question if a g-ladder could do that i know they make alot more than that on a g60, but i think it takes alot more flow to make similar power in a diesel, like a guy in canada put a k24 on an aba and was making over 200whp but really i have no idea. we'll see though. i'm excited to see how the supercharging goes.
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the 11mm studs will thread deeper into the block, so they aren't an option, but rather a necessity.
run that supercharger with a really slim pulley and hold on!!! :twisted: but really i think you want to take advantage of flow and equalizing pressure in the engine. having it breathe better will definitely let the supercharger do its job. lots of good porting/polishing!
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the 11mm studs will thread deeper into the block, so they aren't an option, but rather a necessity.
run that supercharger with a really slim pulley and hold on!!! :twisted: but really i think you want to take advantage of flow and equalizing pressure in the engine. having it breathe better will definitely let the supercharger do its job. lots of good porting/polishing!
In line with that, might I suggest something other than the stock TD air intake? If not something fancy like an all up dual plenum job, at least a good well ported gasser intake.
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I am currently running a ported gasser intake which will go on one of the new motors, and I will either get another one or modify an NA diesel manifold to work.
I am confident that I can get the HP numbers I want with the mods I have planned, A very aggressive port and polish of both motors, WM injection, 1.9 pistons with a sleeved block etc...
my question is will the 11mm studs hold the head down well enough with high boost or would it be necessary to go with 12mm ones?
it shouldn't be too hard to get the blocks tapped for 12mm studs, even if it means helicoiling it, but I just wanted to know if it would be worth the bother.
-Owen
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I am currently running a ported gasser intake which will go on one of the new motors, and I will either get another one or modify an NA diesel manifold to work.
I am confident that I can get the HP numbers I want with the mods I have planned, A very aggressive port and polish of both motors, WM injection, 1.9 pistons with a sleeved block etc...
my question is will the 11mm studs hold the head down well enough with high boost or would it be necessary to go with 12mm ones?
it shouldn't be too hard to get the blocks tapped for 12mm studs, even if it means helicoiling it, but I just wanted to know if it would be worth the bother.
-Owen
andy2 was having head sealing issues.. its not exactly the studs that are the sealing problem, but the fact that the aluminum actually distorts with the super high cylinder pressures. i think he even tried 14mm studs with the same result :(. 12mm studs couldn't hurt, but i can't see how 11mm studs would be a problem, unless they don't thread in as deep.
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I will check how deep the threaded bosses in the block are.
does anyone know how deep the 12mm bosses are? for comparison?
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The thread bosses in the 1.5 block are very deep. That is not the problem.
From my experience, the concern would be if any 1.5 block that has had a head already installed is still good. They all may be damaged from the intial head installation. The stock bolts a way too short.
It is possible that you could do everything right, studs and all, and still end up with a cracked block.
If your really intent on makeing a forced induction 1.5, get a 12mm 1.6 block and put your 1.5 stuff in it. I also know of a bone stock, brand new, 1.5 short block that is available if you want to go that route, but it won't be dirt cheep.
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the thing is that I got my hands on two 11mm 1.6L blocks as well as a 1.5
Getting another block in any configuration is a real pain in the ass up here, everyone thinks that 80's vw parts are made out of gold.
I will have the blocks checked for cracks before I bore them to be sure I am safe then.
-Owen
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I am currently running a ported gasser intake which will go on one of the new motors, and I will either get another one or modify an NA diesel manifold to work.
I am confident that I can get the HP numbers I want with the mods I have planned, A very aggressive port and polish of both motors, WM injection, 1.9 pistons with a sleeved block etc...
No comments of bolts, but inner mods are mostly waste of money if you are after only 150hp. You probably will get 150hp from 1,6 K24, but thats about it, no more.
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well the 150HP mark is just a starting place for the motors, eventually I want to twincharge one of the motors, but I want to try the turbo and superchargers separately first to see how they act before putting them together.
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Superchargers are sexy and have been in our hands longer than turbos... but there is a HP price to pay with them. 10% - 20% of your crank HP will be devoured by the supercharger. That's why turbos have become so popular - they get their hp from the wasted energy going out the exhaust.
And the type of supercharger also affects this - Roots, centrifugal, or twin-screw "
Here's a comparison : http://www.ststurbo.com/turbo_vs__supercharger
and details about 2 of the 3 types of supercharger
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf
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the thing is that I got my hands on two 11mm 1.6L blocks as well as a 1.5
Getting another block in any configuration is a real pain in the ass up here, everyone thinks that 80's vw parts are made out of gold.
I will have the blocks checked for cracks before I bore them to be sure I am safe then.
-Owen
A visual inspection is not enough. See if you can get a dye penatrant test of all of the 11mm holes befor you put any money into an 11mm block. And still i think your taking a big chance.
I got burned by 11mm fasteners on turboing a 1.5 a couple of years ago.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11786.0
If your not in too much of a hurry, I'll sell you my 11mm raceware studs when i take the motor down. But I'm done with 11mm blocks. I seriuosly concidered that brand new 1.5 short block, but now I don't think I'd touch a 11mm block with a ten foot pole. I'll resurect the 1.5TD with a 1.6TD block, 1.5 crank, maybe 1.9 rods, and 1.6td pistons with a little shaved off of the crown.
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the supercharger I am using is a VW G60 scroll compressor, very efficient and makes lots of boost quick, they are a little fragile, but with regular maintenance and care they can be great superchargers
I will have a shop do a dye test on the blocks before I put any money into them, I really would like to get some 12mm blocks, but there are none anywhere near for less than a premium for junk.
as for the racewares, how do they compare to ARP?
I might be interested in grabbing those from you when you pull your engine apart.
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the supercharger I am using is a VW G60 scroll compressor, very efficient and makes lots of boost quick, they are a little fragile, but with regular maintenance and care they can be great superchargers
I will have a shop do a dye test on the blocks before I put any money into them, I really would like to get some 12mm blocks, but there are none anywhere near for less than a premium for junk.
as for the racewares, how do they compare to ARP?
I might be interested in grabbing those from you when you pull your engine apart.
well personal experience from racewares is that they are junk. at least when using an MLS gasket anyways (they need extra torquing to 'crush') and mine broke while andy2 was torquing it :(
get the block magnafluxed if you can. even if it is cracked you could probaby do that stitching or something.
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I was planning on buying some ARP ones anyway, so I might just do that.
I am not sure what I am going to do for a HG yet, it depends what I decide to do and what has to be done to the block, I might be making a copper gasket that is thicker to make up for the extra deck height.
does any one know the difference in deck height from 1.6 to 1.9, I need to figure out which timing belt to use if I alter the deck height.
-Owen
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well personal experience from racewares is that they are junk. at least when using an MLS gasket anyways (they need extra torquing to 'crush') and mine broke while andy2 was torquing it :(
get the block magnafluxed if you can. even if it is cracked you could probaby do that stitching or something.
Huh, I never had a problem with them. Either the 12mm or the 11mm. How far beyond 50 ft/lbs did you go? Raceware is very specific on not exceeding 50 ft/lbs I know there was some folks on the old vwdiesel board that were warping heads and stripping studs by going higher than 50 ft/lbs. What did you do to remedy the situation? Was it just the studs, or did you find some other issue?
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50 ft-lbs?
that sounds kinda low doesn't it?
the ARP ones recommend 80 and often have to be cranked to 100 to seal properly.
anyway, regardless of which fastener I use, it sounds like if I get the blocks magnafluxed and use studs the 11mm fasteners should be fine and hold plenty of boost.
right?
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50 ft-lbs?
that sounds kinda low doesn't it?
the ARP ones recommend 80 and often have to be cranked to 100 to seal properly.
anyway, regardless of which fastener I use, it sounds like if I get the blocks magnafluxed and use studs the 11mm fasteners should be fine and hold plenty of boost.
right?
Yup, its low compaired to ARP's specs. But the Raceware studs, nuts, and washers have some sort of coating on them that reduces the thread friction. So its kind of apples to oranges. If you follow either manufacture's recomendation with there own products, I suspect the results will be the same. I've run Raceware studs in my 1.6td at 25 to 30 psi boost with the fiber head gasket for many years with no failure.
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I just installed Raceware studs on a 1.6 with the mls gasket and could still feel the gasket compressing significantly at 50 ft. lbs. It wasn't until 70-75 ft. lbs that I could feel the gasket compression diminish. I would have doubts that the MLS gasket would seal properly at 50 ft. lbs. after a couple of heat cycles unless retorqued to 50 ft. lbs. repeatedly.
this is exactly what andy2 ran into while torquing mine. thats why their studs are okay for fiber gaskets but not the MLS type. i think they broke at 80ft/lbs at which the gasket was still compressing... so he used some spare studs he had lying around that were ARP i believe.
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well, I think I will go with ARP then, and I am looking into making a copper gasket of custom thickness(dictated by what the supplier here in town can get me)
I am going to see how low I can get the compression and still be able to start it most of the time(not too worried about winter, we have outlets in our parking lot, and I have installed a heater under the hood to keep it cozy)
what do you guys think would be a reasonable compression that would still start in 50*F but allow the maximum allotment for big boost?
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I just installed Raceware studs on a 1.6 with the mls gasket and could still feel the gasket compressing significantly at 50 ft. lbs. It wasn't until 70-75 ft. lbs that I could feel the gasket compression diminish. I would have doubts that the MLS gasket would seal properly at 50 ft. lbs. after a couple of heat cycles unless retorqued to 50 ft. lbs. repeatedly.
Well, you raised enough doubt in my mind, so I called Raceware. The answer given was torque wrences don't measure clamping force. They measure friction. With their fine threads and anti friction coating, 50 ft/lbs provide all the clamping force needed to compress the MLS gasket. He also said that going above 50 ft/lbs would risk stripping the studs. He assured me that there is significanly more clamping force then the OEM head bolts. I guess if the OEM head bolts can clamp the MLS gasket, the Raceware studs ought to compress it enough too. Perhaps more then the OEM bolts can.
How are you able to accuratly tell if the gasket still needs more compression while your tighting the nuts?
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the thing is that I got my hands on two 11mm 1.6L blocks as well as a 1.5
Getting another block in any configuration is a real pain in the ass up here, everyone thinks that 80's vw parts are made out of gold.
I will have the blocks checked for cracks before I bore them to be sure I am safe then.
-Owen
A visual inspection is not enough. See if you can get a dye penatrant test of all of the 11mm holes befor you put any money into an 11mm block. And still i think your taking a big chance.
I got burned by 11mm fasteners on turboing a 1.5 a couple of years ago.
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11786&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
If your not in too much of a hurry, I'll sell you my 11mm raceware studs when i take the motor down. But I'm done with 11mm blocks. I seriuosly concidered that brand new 1.5 short block, but now I don't think I'd touch a 11mm block with a ten foot pole. I'll resurect the 1.5TD with a 1.6TD block, 1.5 crank, maybe 1.9 rods, and 1.6td pistons with a little shaved off of the crown.
really? 1.9 rods with shaved 1.6 pistons on them? think it will work? im so tired of looking for 1.5 os pistons, and i really dont want to sleeve my block back to stock. but i dont want to use an 11mm block either. and i have a dead MF block laying around just waiting to get all slutted up..
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I just installed Raceware studs on a 1.6 with the mls gasket and could still feel the gasket compressing significantly at 50 ft. lbs. It wasn't until 70-75 ft. lbs that I could feel the gasket compression diminish. I would have doubts that the MLS gasket would seal properly at 50 ft. lbs. after a couple of heat cycles unless retorqued to 50 ft. lbs. repeatedly.
Well, you raised enough doubt in my mind, so I called Raceware. The answer given was torque wrences don't measure clamping force. They measure friction. With their fine threads and anti friction coating, 50 ft/lbs provide all the clamping force needed to compress the MLS gasket. He also said that going above 50 ft/lbs would risk stripping the studs. He assured me that there is significanly more clamping force then the OEM head bolts. I guess if the OEM head bolts can clamp the MLS gasket, the Raceware studs ought to compress it enough too. Perhaps more then the OEM bolts can.
How are you able to accuratly tell if the gasket still needs more compression while your tighting the nuts?
i've never experienced it, but apparently its just a feel. i wonder if the 1.9 engines have a different torque sequence to accomodate for crushing the MLS gasket?
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really? 1.9 rods with shaved 1.6 pistons on them? think it will work? im so tired of looking for 1.5 os pistons, and i really dont want to sleeve my block back to stock. but i dont want to use an 11mm block either. and i have a dead MF block laying around just waiting to get all slutted up..
Yah, thats what I'm currently contemplating. I foreget what the actual numbers are. Best of my recolection is .063" off the top of the pistons, and something to reduce the 26mm holes in the 1.9TD rods to accept the 24mm wrist pins. Its the best of all worlds: short stroke, long rods, TD pistons, oil jets.
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I could viscerally feel a difference. Have you ever installed a cork valve cover gasket with the shouldered studs? If so, then I'm sure you could tell when the valve cover nuts were no longer compressing the gasket but rather contacting the shoulders on the studs. Same thing only less dramatic. I'll let you know if my studs strip out. As I said before, I'd be highly suspicious of Raceware studs successfully sealing an MLS gasket at 50 ft. lbs. long term. I doubt they'd pay for the labor or gasket if it failed. I'm more comfortable with the current risks I'm taking in torqueing above the recommended torque. I'm also not making a recommendation, but rather relaying my personal experience.
Andrew
Ok, Keep us posted. Your a braver man then I Gungadin. :wink:
I'll be putting my 1.6/1.9 franken moter togather soon. Raceware 12mm studs and MLS head gasket. I'll post my results.
On the cork gasket thing, i've only used them with the studs that have the shoulders. I tighten until the cover hits the shoulder on the studs, then give it a little more. I switched everthing to the rubber valve cover gaskets now, so i no longer have the pleasure.
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really? 1.9 rods with shaved 1.6 pistons on them? think it will work? im so tired of looking for 1.5 os pistons, and i really dont want to sleeve my block back to stock. but i dont want to use an 11mm block either. and i have a dead MF block laying around just waiting to get all slutted up..
Yah, thats what I'm currently contemplating. I foreget what the actual numbers are. Best of my recolection is .063" off the top of the pistons, and something to reduce the 26mm holes in the 1.9TD rods to accept the 24mm wrist pins. Its the best of all worlds: short stroke, long rods, TD pistons, oil jets.
see, thats what i wanted, the short stroke and long rods to turn some mad rpms. but i also liked the oil jets in my MF block. i also want to run a 1.9 head. and some crazy single turbo, or a nice set of compounds :twisted:
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well as for raceware having fine threads and a special lube, so do ARP so unless the raceware have a really crazy fine thread(cause the ARP ones are pretty fine) I don't think it would be that different of a torque spec.
I am thinking about building a motor with a 1.9 piston rod combo with either a 1.5 or 1.6 crank, depends if I can get the deck spacer figured out right or not.
it will end up as either a 1.6 or 1.7L with long rods and a larger piston face.
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Raceware doesn't have a special lube. The studs, nuts and washers have some sort of propritary coating that reduces friction. They also specify to use mineral based engine oil only (no synthetic) to lubricate the threads before applying torque. I run synthetic, so I've always wondered about re-torqueing after running the engine as I am sure the hot oil will get into the threads. When I was running the fiber head gasket on my 1.6TD, I only re-torqed them once. Never had a gasket leak.
Fine vrs coarse threads from http://www.boltscience.com/pages/faq.htm#5
What are the benefits of fine threaded fasteners over coarse threaded fasteners?
The potential benefits of fine threads are:
1. Size for size a fine thread is stronger than a coarse thread . This is both in tension (because of the larger stress area) and shear (because of their larger minor diameter).
2. Fine threads have also less tendency to loosen since the thread incline is smaller and hence so is the off torque.
3. Because of the smaller pitch they allow finer adjustments in applications that need such a feature.
4. Fine threads can be more easily tapped into hard materials and thin walled tubes.
5. Fine threads require less torque to develop equivalent bolt preloads.
On the negative side:
1. Fine threads are more susceptible to galling than coarse threads.
2. They need longer thread engagements and are more prone to damage and thread fouling.
3. They are also less suitable for high speed assembly since they are more likely to seize when being tightened.
Normally a coarse thread is specified unless there is an over-riding reason to specify a fine thread, certainly for metric fasteners, fine threads are more difficult to obtain