VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Richmond69er on March 08, 2009, 08:39:53 am
-
Hey everyone
im new to these forums but not really new to diesels... ive only ever owned dodge trucks with cummins motors in em...
but i recently just got myself a '89 jetta GL diesel its got a 1.6td in it...
it has 320k on it and i didnt know the history of the motor and i could see that oil was mixing in with coolant... so i did the timing belt, waterpump, headgasket, injectors, and glo plugs. the car runs perfect, and starts easy even on cold mornings.
now my question is what kind of numbers is this motor putting out stock?
and what kind of modifications would i have to do to get maybe 150-170hp out of this motor and still have it be a reliable daily driver?
are there kits out there like ones for the TDI for power upgrades?
Cheers,
Justin.
-
Welcome and start reading. I like to think in terms of torque for diesels but there are others on here who will answer your hp questions. Lots of easy cheap mods can be done with large gains without too much loss of economy. A bit of tinkering with the IP and adding an intercooler are the obvious things.
-
To get 150-170 will take a bit of work. Stock numbers were around 70hp. SO you are looking at about 100% increase. It can be done. Stock exhaust will need to go. Bigger DP and at least 2-2.5" all the way to the end. Either straight pipe or a good turbo muffler. Intake will need to be modified for better/ balanced flow. FMIC or water injection. Good cold air intake. Pump adjustments or rebuild Covered in the FAQ section. There are some very good pump builders on the forum, tintin-giles etc. Full up guage set so you dont melt anything. EGT and boost minimum. With that many miles you will want to think about the bottom end being redone if you are going to be pushing big numbers like that. IM shaft bearings. Make sure everything is up to speed on the head, valve guides, seats etc. Porting works well. Clean up the exhaust side of the head. Open up the intake side. Gasket match. Upgrade to 1.9 HG. Think about head studs. EGR delete, you will need to increase boost levels up into the 20+psi range. How is the turbo? Still tight? Once you get your power you need to put to the road. Lightened 210mm flywheel and clutch setup, Uprated 16V pressure plate. What tranny does your car have? Sounds like you are pretty handy if you already did the work you mentioned. Most of this is just hands on. No chips or electronic stuff. Good old fashioned hot rodding. Just more fuel, more boost, more flow. It really depends on how deep you want to go into the engine and your wallet. You will find tons of good info on this forum. I would suggest about a month of solid reading, question asking, research and planning. It is very easy to get the bug and end up WAY WAY over budget.
Good luck,
Jim
-
Boost doesnīt make power. With right turbo, 20-25psi is plenty for 150hp.
-
True, but at what rpm range?
-
To get 150-170 will take a bit of work. Stock numbers were around 70hp. SO you are looking at about 100% increase. It can be done. Stock exhaust will need to go. Bigger DP and at least 2-2.5" all the way to the end. Either straight pipe or a good turbo muffler. Intake will need to be modified for better/ balanced flow. FMIC or water injection. Good cold air intake. Pump adjustments or rebuild Covered in the FAQ section. There are some very good pump builders on the forum, tintin-giles etc. Full up guage set so you dont melt anything. EGT and boost minimum. With that many miles you will want to think about the bottom end being redone if you are going to be pushing big numbers like that. IM shaft bearings. Make sure everything is up to speed on the head, valve guides, seats etc. Porting works well. Clean up the exhaust side of the head. Open up the intake side. Gasket match. Upgrade to 1.9 HG. Think about head studs. EGR delete, you will need to increase boost levels up into the 20+psi range. How is the turbo? Still tight? Once you get your power you need to put to the road. Lightened 210mm flywheel and clutch setup, Uprated 16V pressure plate. What tranny does your car have? Sounds like you are pretty handy if you already did the work you mentioned. Most of this is just hands on. No chips or electronic stuff. Good old fashioned hot rodding. Just more fuel, more boost, more flow. It really depends on how deep you want to go into the engine and your wallet. You will find tons of good info on this forum. I would suggest about a month of solid reading, question asking, research and planning. It is very easy to get the bug and end up WAY WAY over budget.
Good luck,
Jim
The reason i want to have more power is basically to keep up with stock VR's that are around this area... alot of people in the mk2 platform are going with vr6 swaps and instead of jumping on the bandwagon i want to have a diesel that will keep up (for the most part) that being said....
The stock exhaust is going to be gutted out for sure. i will be getting a 2.5" straight pipe... how is it for noise? i might be inclined to put a performance magnaflow muffler on... but 2.5" is a definite mod in the works.
as for intake modifications... ill have to look around on this site some more... but whats the easiest most common modification? custom fabbed up piping with a k&n cone on the end? as for a FMIC is there a kit thats available with all necessary piping to plumb it in or am i going to have to source out a fmic and have appropriate piping fabbed up?
as for gauges i already have a set of gauges waiting to be installed EGT/Boost/Oil pressure. so im set in that department for now.
The turbo is still tight from what i can tell. runs awesome still. but is there a different turbo that would be an upgrade for the stock one? id like it to pull hard all the way up and spool up pretty quick? what would you recommend i start looking for?
as for a pump... theres a shop called new west diesel here in the lower mainland BC... anyone ever get work done from them? im not really into the shipping idea to giles in the east... mainly cause ive never dealt with shipping before...
its got a 5spd tranny right now... how do i check what model it is?
210mm lightened flywheel and pressure plate can be done after im finished with the motor work...
as of right now i dont have a budget in mind for this project. but what kind of cost ballpark am i looking at here for parts? alot of the wrenching i can do myself....
and thanks everyone for the input, this is a great forum. these are my first posts haha im already excited!
a little something....
ive owned the car for a few weeks now and since i got it, it had a blue interior complete from dash to seats to carpet... ive already gutted the entire thing and am starting to put "fatmat" on the floors, roof,trunk, and doors. i want to get rid of some of the road noise... im replacing it with a complete trophy recaro interior with black GLI headliner... so my interior is going to be finished pretty soon. the motor is up now for the chopping block...
Cheers,
Justin
-
These should answer most questions
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=645
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4391
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=579
The first link is for your motor but the other 2 are a good read anyways
-
Make sure you have good airflow, right from the intake, to the exhaust.
A well-flowing intercooler, a good intake manifold, a well ported head, a short and smooth exhaust manifold and the right turbo together with a full 2.5 - 3 inch exhaust will be a sound foundation.
Bottom line: the better the air flows, the safer it is to run the high horsepower.
I would recommend using a modern turbo, but not necesserily a VNT - they can be a problem for your con rods.
Turbo sizing - look for a 40 / 45 mm unit or thereabouts for your power level. A good modern turbo will give equal or better performance to a K24 with less stress on the engine due to better efficiency and lower air temperature.
Make sure you have your pump built by someone who knows his stuff.
OR, use a suitable OEM pump which already has a bigger plunger head (not for beginners, this)
You will probably need head studs - ARP will do fine.
1.9 AAZ 3-layer head gasket will be a very good investment.
With 170 hp, your clutch and gearbox will be at risk. No question your stock clutch won't cut it, but probably neither will your stock transmission.
Look for a Passat 35i gearbox and a strenghtened G60 clutch kit.
-
Your Injection Pump will be the heart of all your power. A stock rebuild will be just that. You can always adjust it from there as described in the FAQ section. That will get you some pretty good fueling advances to allow for more boost / higher rpm. I dont think it will get you to 150hp but it will move you a good bit past stock. The next jump is to have a performance rebuild of your pump done. That is where you really need to do your research and check out some of the better pump builders. It's like a skill level jump from college football up to the NFL. It's all custom work. It's also about 800-1000 bucks. Not cheap.
I think to do everything right for a reliable 150 daily driving hp will run you 1500 to 3000. Soup to nuts. Engine, turbo, tranny, exhaust etc...
You should have no problem hanging with the vr6 class unless they are all decked out high hp units.
-
You mentioned you might put a Magnaflow muffler on when you start tinkering. I just put a new basicly stock rebuilt 1.6 T/D in my Rabbit and it's old exhaust had to go. I used the stock downpipe from the Jetta the engine came out of and finished it up with 2 in. pipe the rest of the way as I think it will be fine for what i'm trying to accomplish but I also had to have a pipe bent over the axel which is another reason I stayed 2 in to have more clearance there. The bottom line is I had to get a muffler and since I didn't want it riduculously loud I wanted a performance muffler that wasn't just a cheap glasspack so I got a Magnaflow with the 2 in. center inlet and outlet trying to keep the little beast as stock looking and not real loud,I figured it would be louder than the stock system at least. This is basicly just a straight through type oval shape { 5x9x18} but I was kind of dissapointed when I started it. It doesn't have any sound at all and it's a straight through, I just wanted a purr at least but it doesn't even do that, more of a buzz Ha Ha.
-
Your Injection Pump will be the heart of all your power. A stock rebuild will be just that. You can always adjust it from there as described in the FAQ section. That will get you some pretty good fueling advances to allow for more boost / higher rpm. I dont think it will get you to 150hp but it will move you a good bit past stock. The next jump is to have a performance rebuild of your pump done. That is where you really need to do your research and check out some of the better pump builders. It's like a skill level jump from college football up to the NFL. It's all custom work. It's also about 800-1000 bucks. Not cheap.
I think to do everything right for a reliable 150 daily driving hp will run you 1500 to 3000. Soup to nuts. Engine, turbo, tranny, exhaust etc...
You should have no problem hanging with the vr6 class unless they are all decked out high hp units.
Yeah, ive been reading non stop for the day pretty much and of all shops that tune pumps everyone seems to swear by giles... so i did just that and messaged him. i will end up going with a giles built super pump... that being the biggest expense in this build...
this evening i added an order to my buddies large order of SS from Ace metals down in Cali... even with the dollar being weak it still worked out to be cheaper. my friend swears by him said we should have it all here by Friday this week. going to be fabbing up a turbo back system.
thanks for the input on the magnaflow muffler... im going to run it as a straight 2.5'' at first no muffler....if it gets loud or drone i can always hack it up and throw in a muffler so thats no big deal.
as of right now i put a cap on the amount of money im willing to spend on engine parts/performance at around the 3k mark.
a grand is already used for the pump....
i cant wait to see the look on the vr guys....
thanks for all the info so far! this site has alot of knowledge
-
Your Injection Pump will be the heart of all your power. A stock rebuild will be just that. You can always adjust it from there as described in the FAQ section. That will get you some pretty good fueling advances to allow for more boost / higher rpm. I dont think it will get you to 150hp but it will move you a good bit past stock. The next jump is to have a performance rebuild of your pump done. That is where you really need to do your research and check out some of the better pump builders. It's like a skill level jump from college football up to the NFL. It's all custom work. It's also about 800-1000 bucks. Not cheap.
I think to do everything right for a reliable 150 daily driving hp will run you 1500 to 3000. Soup to nuts. Engine, turbo, tranny, exhaust etc...
You should have no problem hanging with the vr6 class unless they are all decked out high hp units.
If you do go with a Magnaflow check out Magnaflowplanet, they are the cheapest I've found for them, have a lot more sizes and configurations and have free shipping. The damn thing is too quiet though even though it's a straight through. It will probably get louder though after those little perforations start filling up with soot. You wouldn't believe all the *** in one of these things inside the case if you cut one open after it's been on there a while.
Yeah, ive been reading non stop for the day pretty much and of all shops that tune pumps everyone seems to swear by giles... so i did just that and messaged him. i will end up going with a giles built super pump... that being the biggest expense in this build...
this evening i added an order to my buddies large order of SS from Ace metals down in Cali... even with the dollar being weak it still worked out to be cheaper. my friend swears by him said we should have it all here by Friday this week. going to be fabbing up a turbo back system.
thanks for the input on the magnaflow muffler... im going to run it as a straight 2.5'' at first no muffler....if it gets loud or drone i can always hack it up and throw in a muffler so thats no big deal.
as of right now i put a cap on the amount of money im willing to spend on engine parts/performance at around the 3k mark.
a grand is already used for the pump....
i cant wait to see the look on the vr guys....
thanks for all the info so far! this site has alot of knowledge
-
RabbitTD....
those perforations in the muffler.....
i have a magnaflow turboback installed on my truck and the muffler can be turned around (one way the exhaust flows straight through over the perforations and the other way flows through but catches on all the perforations in the muffler)
maybe check that out and see if ur muffler is like that or not...
-
Before you start fabbing up an exhaust, make sure you have your turbo selection set. It is going to need to clear what ever intake system you choose to go with. A volvo 24D N/A intake can be cut and modded to make a very nice long runer intake. The k24 or t3 should work for you but will be maxed out. You could hybrid them by going k24/26 or a bigger compressor on the t3. I did some checking and the compressor and housing of my merc t3 turbo bolted right up to the vw t3. If you go with a turbo that is not specific to the 1.6td you will need to make sure it will work with the exhaust manifold. A standard t3 will not bolt up. The other option is to sell your turbo and use the funds to help purchase something more modern. The down pipe is going to be the hardest piece to make correctly. It is a tight fit near the shifter linkage. 2 1/2" will be easier than 3". You will need a good turbo flex joint on it. You may also want to put some form of heat blocker on the exhaust manifold, turbine housing, and downpipe. Thats an extra that is not needed but will certainly help spool time and keep your engine bay/ intake cooler.
-
One mod not often talked about that will give you about 50 hp more w/o going crazy on the boost is propane injection. It will also allow you to burn more of the diesel fuel you inject... For example:
http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/testimonials.html
http://www.poweredbypropane.net/products-pricing-order-online/diesel-injection-kits/turbo-compensated-diesel-propane-injection-kit.html?vmcchk=1
-
True, but at what rpm range?
One (http://www.netikka.net/vepiku/dyno4.jpg) for example, 19psi boost. With 32psi, I had 150hp between 3600-5900rpm :lol: Lowered it to 29, it got faster. Thanks to vnt :roll:
Has anyone tested propane for VW idi? I know one and it didnīt add any hp for him :?
-
Before you go crazy, look at the toque/power curve for your nominally stock 1.6 turbo diesel engine. I ripped one from a 1983 SAE paper (i have it printed, but not here) on the topic of adapting the VW diesel for turbo-charging in the case of the four and five cylinder versions (of course there is also a six for Volvos).
Honestly, I have the image locally on the computer, but can't get it on the post right now. Maybe I can PM it to you
-
Honestly, I have the image locally on the computer, but can't get it on the post right now. Maybe I can PM it to you
Save the image to paint... save as .jpg and upload it to http://www.photobucket.com - from there you can post the link on our board :-)
-
thanks for the heads up on turbo choices...
been reading up on it and have decided at the moment to go hybrid with a k24/26 i dont want to run what i have now and be maxed out to the limit... exhaust manifold i was planning on fabbing one up.
ive been calling around trying to source parts out around me locally but i thikn im going to have to start looking elsewhere... any tips? besides whats on this forum?
ive basically decided on my turbo, exhaust, exhaust manifold.
im still looking around for FMIC ideas and intake...
now another queston i have is what kind of injectors to use? surely stock ones need to be changed out...
id really like to have all the parts before i tear this thing up... that way i can blow it out in a weekend or whatever...
tranny work will come after the motor is built.
-
If stock injectors are good, there is no need to change those.
-
If stock injectors are good, there is no need to change those.
They should give all the fuel you need. I saw that you said you did the injectors already. Did you rebuild them, nozzles-lapping-correct 155 pop pressure etc..?
If you are going to be tearing the engine down, and have access to a lathe, you may want to turn your intermediate shaft to true it up. Takes about 4-6 ounces off and balances it. Not gonna gain you 10hp but every bit helps. Here are some before and after photo's of mine:
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/DSCN0366.jpg)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/DSCN0395.jpg)
Here is a link to the thread that discusses it.
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=13253&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=intermediate+shaft&start=0
If you can get a good parts list together, people on here will help you find the best deal. We all love to score the best deal!
-
Rich, hello I wish you success with your project. I crunched some theoretical numbers and here is an interesting look at how RPM and Air flow can affect HP. From mild to wild, here we go
All calculations done with a 1.6L engine, boost in PSI,
RPM 3500 Boost 10 BHP 70 Air Lb/Min 8.5 Intercooler No
RPM 3800 Boost 14 BHP 100 Air Lb/Min 12 Intercooler Yes
RPM 4400 Boost 18 BHP 130 Air Lb/Min 16 Intercooler Yes
RPM 4800 Boost 22 BHP 158 Air Lb/Min 19 Intercooler Yes
RPM 5200 Boost 26 BHP 189 Air Lb/Min 22 Intercooler Yes
RPM 5800 Boost 30 BHP 229 Air Lb/Min 28 Intercooler Yes
I like # 3, I will not be at 4400 all the time, but if I need more power I know it will be there 8)
#6 is all out, a forged crank, Carrillo rods, pistons machined for Teflon buttons, in fact lets put in a stroker crank overbore to the water jackets, sleeve it and build a 3.0 4 banger, hmmm now that i think about it, were is that budget spreadsheet :lol:
-
If you are not going to invest in high dollar custom connecting rods, you may want to consider improving the stock rods. They are very robust, but high boost at low rpm will really stress them. Resize big and small ends, arp con-rod bolts, polish and shot peen. You can polish them yourself and just have them shot peened. I lost about 1 ounce per rod. Needless to say you should have the rotating assembly balanced when you are all done. Here is a photo of mine after being polished and shot peened.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/DSCN0361.jpg)
-
RabbitTD....
those perforations in the muffler.....
i have a magnaflow turboback installed on my truck and the muffler can be turned around (one way the exhaust flows straight through over the perforations and the other way flows through but catches on all the perforations in the muffler)
maybe check that out and see if ur muffler is like that or not...
This one isn't made that way, it is a 5x9x18 oval type with the inlet and outlet both in the center of each end and it is straight through with just holes and not louvered, doesn't matter which way you put it on. I did leave the resonator that was on the part of the exhaust from the Jetta on thinking the car would be pretty loud but I'm pretty sure it's gonna be coming off. It sounds now like a vacum cleaner with a little bit of a buzz added. :lol:
-
subsonic....
thats a great read. i just cruised through it and it seems like a good idea when i have the motor already torn down. ill give it a few passes on my lathe.
as for rods...i am looking at getting some custom connecting rods instead of sticking with whats in there... but if the price tag scares me away ill definitely be messaging you for some more info..
about the injectors. they are brand new they run mint :P
but today i was talking with a close friend of mine and we came across a wrecked 01 Jetta TDI in portland. its a rollover car so the shell is garbage but the motor and trans is still good. 115k on it. were going to go trailer it home this coming weekend for parts. we were tossing the idea around of just swapping in the 1.9tdi motor in. what do you guys think? i kind of prefer the 1.6td just because theres no computer involvment
-
I think it would kick butt! For about the same price as giles rebuilding your td pump you could have him build a brand spankin new mechanical tdi pump built. When you ditch the ecu, making power goes old school again, fuel-boost-exhaust. Toss in a 1749vb or gt20 and you will have a screamer, 150-200+hp. The tranny will be more robust as well. Sell off the 1.6TD engine for a good offset and you will be on your way.
-
I think it would kick butt! For about the same price as giles rebuilding your td pump you could have him build a brand spankin new mechanical tdi pump built. When you ditch the ecu, making power goes old school again, fuel-boost-exhaust. Toss in a 1749vb or gt20 and you will have a screamer, 150-200+hp. The tranny will be more robust as well. Sell off the 1.6TD engine for a good offset and you will be on your way.
ill know for sure what i plan to do after this weekend after i get the car in my garage...for the price of the parts/donor car im practically robbing the guy.
ill have to research it more, just curious to see how much fab work its going to take to get the TDI motor in the mk2.
offsetting the price of the parts car by selling off my 1.6td is a good idea... but i also have a project suzuki samurai that id love to put the 1.6 in.
To many projects to little time! isnt that the case all the time!!! 8)
-
hey 69er, to be honest, beating mk2 VR's with just power is a tough task but I whooped a friend with a mk2 VR golf another with a VR passat and another with a mk4 GTI stage 2 (all on twisty PA backroads(&on veg)) and im convinced it was me, the driver, with a courteous nod to my giles pump that facilitated these kills..
Im running bilstein struts with H&R(3/4" drop) springs and new OE bushings everywhere else. also, green diamond tires and less cetane than diesel on my vegetable oil ... get comfy with the cassis, then work on power, ,,in my opinion, which like my a**h*ole is one of many :wink:
-
hey 69er, to be honest, beating mk2 VR's with just power is a tough task but I whooped a friend with a mk2 VR golf another with a VR passat and another with a mk4 GTI stage 2 (all on twisty PA backroads(&on veg)) and im convinced it was me, the driver, with a courteous nod to my giles pump that facilitated these kills..
Im running bilstein struts with H&R(3/4" drop) springs and new OE bushings everywhere else. also, green diamond tires and less cetane than diesel on my vegetable oil ... get comfy with the cassis, then work on power, ,,in my opinion, which like my a**h*ole is one of many :wink:
that sounds awesome.
i dont know what kind of vr's guys are running over there... but i went on a few cruises with the VW club here and in all honesty. my car just could NOT keep up. straights, turns, etc etc doesnt matter what it was. but most of my buddies are running stage 2 or stage 3 VRT's so they are putting out HUGE numbers....
we have a shop locally called JS performance and they are currently doing the R&D on the first compound turbo setup on a 1.9TDI... its going to be costly but its in the back of my mind as a mod that i would definitely consider doing if i swapped out my 1.6 for a 1.9.
to each there own! but thats impressive that you managed to run away from VR's
-
I am talking about a very curvy road I drive everyday like mad, as for highway stuff or relatively straight roads, i would(&have) get pissed on for sure.
Although, it was a V6 A4 and VR passat I led to a past car show and was the one who got pulled over.. he said I was doing 95 bla bla bla .. the courts still havent proven their jurisdiction over me and the papers ive filed bar the judge and officer from standing in truth before me in court, but thats a whole nother story...