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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: BlueMule on March 04, 2009, 08:56:28 am
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I have not seen this discussed, if so, sorry for the repetition. There are loads of CHEAP Chinese turbos being dumped on the market today so please beware. These products are very dubious in their construction quality and execution. How can you tell if you are getting a Sinoknockoff. Telltale signs are, overall poor machining and casting, poor machining for balancing and a cheap looking wastegate control.
If you trust your supplier ask him who manufactured the Turbo, also ask for a map. Remember when doing performance mods or buying equipment you usually get what you pay for, if you want a new Garrett, you must buy from a Garrett dealer.
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Yeah my boss just got back from a turbo confrence last week. They had video of the knock off holsets literally blowing up when they overspun them. Turbos do blow up when overspun, but they are supposed to be contained. These cheap chinease turbos simply flew into pieces. Imagine an HX35 turning 130,000rpm, and then disintigrating and flying through the housings. That could really hurt someone. The quality holset blew up too, but at like 140,000 and it was contained. Also, the cheap ones were coming in at 10% under the minimun allowable flow.
On the plus side, there are super cool inovations coming our way like dual stage compressors that make 80+ psi. :shock: :D
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Sounds like an interesting confrence.
i've seen these turbos. Its just like the knock off dirt bikes and 4 wheelers. They are so cheap it isn't even funny. People buy them and when they fail the whole motorcycle industry gets a bad image. Same goes with the Turbos.
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*cough*prothe*cough*
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*cough*prothe*cough*
he's simply offering the public these turbo's at a cheaper price. if nobody was buying them, then he wouldn't be selling them.
unless you've been living under a rock, anyone should know that if you pay $250 for a brand new turbo, that you're not really getting the best quality. the same goes with ANY product out on the market.
that being said, i believe that if you run stock boost, (10-12 psi) then these cheap turbo's should be alright.
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*cough*prothe*cough*
he's simply offering the public these turbo's at a cheaper price. if nobody was buying them, then he wouldn't be selling them.
unless you've been living under a rock, anyone should know that if you pay $250 for a brand new turbo, that you're not really getting the best quality. the same goes with ANY product out on the market.
that being said, i believe that if you run stock boost, (10-12 psi) then these cheap turbo's should be alright.
Time will tell if the $300 new one he sent me lasts in my Caravan diesel ;-)
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Another good reason to have an intercooler. At least it will catch the big chunks... :shock:
Andrew
I believe we should be putting some strong stainless screen over the inlet side of our IC's to stop even the small parts from going through.
I don't think Door screen would be strong enough but maybe..
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Another good reason to have an intercooler. At least it will catch the big chunks... :shock:
Andrew
LOL! Is that what that thingie is for? :D
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The reason I brought this up is to point out that not all that glitters is gold, and it is not just a question of money.
For example, if a non spec turbo, whether made in China or Jersey lets go and does not "contain", it can literally be dangerous, a blown engine would be the least of your worries if you where free revving under the hood and it let go. Also if it did not "contain" you could cut a fuel line, or oil cooler line, if you have ever seen a diesel fire you know what could happen then.
Looking at some of these turbos makes me nervous, this is a piece that is rotating at tens of thousands of RPMs why anyone would want to try to save money on this I cannot understand, must be a difference in philosophy. There are also cheap intercoolers, but at least with these you will loose flow, or bust a seam etc. but a turbo I just don't think it is wise.
jt, I am not familiar with the supplier you referenced, but it is my educated observation that in the realm of high performance mods, believing something will work and having empirical evidence that it will are two different subjects. I hope all goes well for you and you have no problems, but I would rather go to a boneyard and pull a used turbo than use one of these poorly executed pieces.
Peace Out
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The reason I brought this up is to point out that not all that glitters is gold, and it is not just a question of money.
For example, if a non spec turbo, whether made in China or Jersey lets go and does not "contain", it can literally be dangerous, a blown engine would be the least of your worries if you where free revving under the hood and it let go. Also if it did not "contain" you could cut a fuel line, or oil cooler line, if you have ever seen a diesel fire you know what could happen then.
Looking at some of these turbos makes me nervous, this is a piece that is rotating at tens of thousands of RPMs why anyone would want to try to save money on this I cannot understand, must be a difference in philosophy. There are also cheap intercoolers, but at least with these you will loose flow, or bust a seam etc. but a turbo I just don't think it is wise.
jt, I am not familiar with the supplier you referenced, but it is my educated observation that in the realm of high performance mods, believing something will work and having empirical evidence that it will are two different subjects. I hope all goes well for you and you have no problems, but I would rather go to a boneyard and pull a used turbo than use one of these poorly executed pieces.
Peace Out
i guess you haven't seen hillfolk'rs turbo (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3792&highlight=turbo)... if you push ANY turbo past their limits they WILL fail. some turbo's just have different failure points :wink:
btw that turbo is a GARRETT T3. they are not indestructible! but stock, they can last forever with proper care (proper oil & oci)
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my buddy bought a prothe k04 for his m-tdi project.
after inspecting it, we concluded it would not really be up to the job....
however, there is was nothing wrong with the quality of the intake and exhaust housings. in the end, we bought a new old stock k04 for a mitsubishi 4x4, and swapped in internals over into the housings from the chinese turbo - so we have genuine german good bits inside a chinese exterior... and the 2 turbo's cost a hell of a lot less than a new genuine one.
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my buddy bought a prothe k04 for his m-tdi project.
after inspecting it, we concluded it would not really be up to the job....
however, there is was nothing wrong with the quality of the intake and exhaust housings. in the end, we bought a new old stock k04 for a mitsubishi 4x4, and swapped in internals over into the housings from the chinese turbo - so we have genuine german good bits inside a chinese exterior... and the 2 turbo's cost a hell of a lot less than a new genuine one.
So the Genuine kkk k04 parts fit the Chinese housing? That's cool.
I was wondering about that for the exact reason you used it.
Could be a good way to get the housings you need vs OEM. Can buy a complete Chinese turbo for less than one OE housing, mount the Chinese center section on the wall for something to look at ans use the OE center..
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my buddy bought a prothe k04 for his m-tdi project.
after inspecting it, we concluded it would not really be up to the job....
how did you come to that conclusion? were there visible defects in the wheels?
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I recently cleaned one of those cheap chinese turbos at work. I believe it was a boy racer's T3/T4 :lol: . But anyways, those housings were junk. They didn't fall apart in the shot peen machine, but they really didn't stand up to teh steel shot like the Garretts or Holsets. You could just tell the aluminum was inferior and cheap. The embossed letters on the comp. housing started to wear away. After seeing that I will not recommend them to anyone.
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I think it should be noted that the usual Chinese intercoolers are actually very good. Even some very well performing race cars use them, as well as the famous 600+ hp TD Mercs of western Finland.
Sometimes cheap can be good, but when you think about the simplicity of an alloy intercooler compared to a complete turbochager unit, you see why I/C from China are OK but few turbos are.
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I think it should be noted that the usual Chinese intercoolers are actually very good. Even some very well performing race cars use them, as well as the famous 600+ hp TD Mercs of western Finland.
Sometimes cheap can be good, but when you think about the simplicity of an alloy intercooler compared to a complete turbochager unit, you see why I/C from China are OK but few turbos are.
I've always wondered about those turbos too, I think the seals would probably be the biggest concern with them. I really don't know anyone personaly who ever got one other than I think ARB here in the forum got one from Prothe but I don't know how it worked for him. I'd be afraid of them myself though, not so much about blowing up but lack of boost and oil leaks but who knows, they might be fine in a lower output engine.
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=16168&highlight=turbo
(even OEM turbo's can fail)
i would also wonder about the efficiency of these (chinese) turbo's. many people on TDIclub have bought them and stated that they were worse than the OEM turbo. could be subjective though, as they were using an 'uprated' turbo, and possibly the lag was the issue.
it'd be nice for someone to give these cheaper turbo's a decent review (non biased) for everyone, rather than cutting them up because they're of chinese origin.
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=16168&highlight=turbo
(even OEM turbo's can fail)
i would also wonder about the efficiency of these (chinese) turbo's. many people on TDIclub have bought them and stated that they were worse than the OEM turbo. could be subjective though, as they were using an 'uprated' turbo, and possibly the lag was the issue.
it'd be nice for someone to give these cheaper turbo's a decent review (non biased) for everyone, rather than cutting them up because they're of chinese origin.
Well, if the Chinese would stop flooding the market with garbage, Chinese imports wouldn't have the bad name that they do.
They gave themselves a bad name, not us. I think everyone has had at least one "Made in China" experience, where something they just bought failed or broke almost immediately.
In my case it was a 17mm socket that split, and screwed up my wrist forever. I'm reminded of that POS every day when I wake up and can barely move my wrist. :(
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I would like to clarify, again, the whole point of my post. It had less to do with were the turbo was made and more to do with the quality, it just so happens that suppliers are having cheap knockoffs of quality parts made in China, again the point of origin is a reference not a qualifier.
I have purchased very high quality parts from Chinese suppliers, oil filters for example, I was able to purchase Nissan knockoffs that were exact duplicates, down to the Rockwell of the top to the exact media inside for 1$ US, and I can get Bosch and Mann knockoffs for about 60 cents ea US. But remember it is the local supplier who specs these things not the builder in China, so just like a computer garbage in garbage out.
However that having been said, the photo in this link shows that not only is this turbo poorly executed but also dangerous, you cannot grind off half of the retaining nut and the threaded portion of the shaft and think this is safe, also look at the damage to the vanes, no independent testing is needed.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15633&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105
As far as performance is concerned if the supplier cannot provide a Map for the turbo in question then I am not interested, and I don't think anyone will be wasting money to perform these tests anytime soon, but who knows.
The point about intercoolers is also interesting, the supplier should be able to provide you with pressure drop specs, that way you have some idea of the performance. If not, you could buy it and then put it on the flow bench you have in the garage, and..........., well you get the point.
I also was curious and looked up the P..... thread, I am afraid of saying the name, lest this thread get closed, and it was an interesting look into a different philosophy, very interesting.
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Well I'm running chinese turbo's,intercooler/piping,exhaust manifold on my newest setup planned to boost 45-55 psi.I had to go this route as I'm still trying out different turbo's and until I get the right setup I have to try cheap turbo's.The material quality is the only issue that I see with these items however I have pushed the chinese T3 to 30 psi with no issues :wink: .If I had any doubt's about this stuff I never would have bought it in the first place.
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Andy, I am glad things are working out for you. If I may add, you really don't need to set the engine up by trial and error. Get out your calculator and go to these links and they can help you size the turbo VS horsepower, then you can tell your IP builder the RPM, HP and air volume and he can set it up to very close to perfect. Or you can buy a bench racing program, just a suggestion. 8)
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech101.html
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech102.html
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html
Woot 10 posts, woot der it is
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I am glad somebody finally mentioned its not where the turbo is made but how the turbo is made seeing as Holset has at least one plant in China.
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Its a bit tricky when sizing compound turbos to get just to right results you want on both compressor and turbine end.I'd doubt there is anything online that can calculate this and how to setup wastegates,intercooling etc. I have basically learned it the trial and error way and would do it again :wink: .
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Have you got a compound set-up going again?
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The engine is almost assembled.
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Can't wait to see pic Andy, and to the OP love the thread name very intellectual like haha.
1SlowVW
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There are plenty of decent turbos on e-bay, not all cheap ones are china junk.
A lot of people goto the junkyards and rebuild them themselves (you can buy seals, center sections already balanced, new wheels)
Turbonetics supply's turbos at a cheap enough price to buy new.
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would anyone know where to pick up a center section for a VNT1749a turbo?