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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: flapjack on February 23, 2009, 05:46:44 am
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(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t31.JPG)
This is as far as I got last nite. After taking off the compressor wheel and knocking off the round piece behind it, I had to leave the garage.
Anything I should keep in mind?
What is the next step?
I literally didn't touch anything after knocking that round piece off, do those parts just slide off the shaft?
Thanks
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t32.JPG)
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Did you get a rebuild kit yet? Where?
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Did you get a rebuild kit yet? Where?
Yes, i can post a pic if like
G-Pop Shop
22349 W War Eagle Rd
Springdale, AR 72764
Ph: 479-751-7966
Fax: 479-717-2211
http://www.gpopshop.com/contactus.html
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Is the k24 similar enough to rebuild?
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=13357
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mine where a b#### to.they are suspose to slide on ,but they corode with time.Mine took 2 weeks of heat and PB.I got it off by securing the cartridge and tapping the comp. side of the shaft with the old nut on the end.the dynamic seal will bottom out on the cartridge ,then all tapping will slide the seal off.
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Your going down the correct path. I will try to post up more later when I'm not on my phone.
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andrew: far side is a capped male water connection and near side is open female water connection, so no sealing surfaces were harmed in the making of this documentary :)
so when everything is pulled off from the compressor side, the shaft slides out on the turbine side?
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yep,once that seals off it should slide out.
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Did you get the instructions from g-pop with the kit? If not I have them posted on here somewhere.
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They may have sent me directions, I bought the kit a year ago
Is this what you posted?? :
INSTRUCTIONS:
The first step in rebuilding your turbo is marking your turbine housing and compressor housing in relationship to the bearing center section. You can do this with paint, a punch, etc...This will ensure, once you are finished rebuilding the turbo, that it will bolt directly back up to your engine.
The next step: remove the turbine housing bolts that hold the turbine housing to the center section, there will either be 4 or 6 13mm bolts. Next, remove the 6, 1/2" or 13mm bolts that hold the compressor housing to the backing plate.
Then place the turbo's turbine nut into a vice holding it firmly, the nut is odd-shaped because of balancing, but you can normally get two sides in the vice. Mark the turbine shaft with paint on the blade that lines up with the oil drain of the center section. Next, mark the compressor wheel to the backing plate with paint, or by lightly scribing a mark on both surfaces.
Remove the 3/8" compressor wheel nut and then remove the compressor wheel. ***Special Note*** Some are left-hand threaded shafts. If turned counter clockwise, it will break the shaft off, turn it clockwise to remove the nut if you see that it is a left-hand thread. With a rubber mallet, lightly tap the threaded turbine shaft to remove it from the bearing center section.
Once removed, place bearing center section in a vice, holding it firmly by the oil inlet and oil outlet flat surfaces. Now, remove the 4 backing plate bolts. They will either be 10mm or 7/16". With a rubber mallet, lightly tap aluminum backing plate to separate it from the bearing housing.
There are 3 types of compressor seals for the T3's, T4's and T3/T4 hybrid turbos.
-The first one is a one piece carbon seal, this type of seal is pressed into and out of the backing plate as an assembly.
-The second type is a 4-piece carbon seal, this type consists of a carbon seal, o-ring, eared washer, and a spring.
To remove this type of seal, first pick the black carbon seal out of the backing plate,
next using a pick remove the o-ring,
then turn the earred washer until its ears line up with the stakes in the backing plate,
and finally remove the spring.
When reassembling this type of seal,
first install the spring with the small end down,
next the earred washer, then the o--ring,
and finally the carbon seal.
The last type of seal used in these turbos is the dynamic seal,
this type of seal installs onto the thrust collar,
use a pick to remove it.
To install it press it over the collar with your thumbs until it fits into the groove.
There are also two types of thrust bearings used on T3's, T4's, and T3/T4 hybrid turbos.
One is the standard 270 degree (not a full circle),
if you have this type use a pick and pull the thrust bearing off of the bearing housing.
The other type of thrust bearing is the 360 degree (full circle),
it can be held by 3 allen-head screws, or by the anti-rotation pins in the bearing housing.
To remove it,
either remove the three screws,
or use a pick to pull if off of the anti-rotation pins.
Now, remove the small snap ring holding the front journal bearing in, and use a pick to remove the journal bearing.
Next, turn the bearing center section upside down and remove the rear snap ring and rear journal bearing.
Now, you have almost completely disassembled the turbo.
The last thing you must do on a dynamic seal turbo is remove the piston ring from the thrust collar,
or on a carbon seal turbo, remove the carbon seal , o-ring, washer, and spring from the backing plate.
Now, remove the piston ring from the turbine shaft, and the turbo is disassembled.
***Special Note*** Carefully check all sealing surfaces where piston rings sit when installed.
These surfaces must be smooth and round.
Also, check the grooves that the piston rings sit in on the turbine shaft and the thrust collar. The piston ring must sit in these grooves tightly, with only 0.001 or 0.002 clearance. Any more than this will cause oil leaks.
Another special note:
Journal bearing surfaces and thrust collar surfaces must be completely smooth and have no scratches or nicks that you can feel with your finger nail.
Places to check:
journal bearing bore in the bearing housing,
journal bearing surface on the turbine shaft,
and thrust collar surfaces that touch the thrust bearing.
*One more note:*
Bearing housing choking is a very common problem with all turbos. It is caused by the turbo not being properly cooled off when the engine is shut off, and/or irregular oil changes.
To check for this problem, look for black carbon deposits throughout the inside of the bearing housing, especially on the rear side where the turbine shaft goes in. The bearing housing should have an open area that you can see light through from the oil drain back to the rear sealing area where the shaft goes in.
If you cannot see through the bearing housing, from these two areas, then you have severe choking and all of this carbon must be removed, or the turbo will fail almost instantly on startup.
Now, completely and thoroughly clean the whole turbo with solvent. It needs to be very clean, this is very, very important. Reverse the procedure above and reassemble the turbo using high quality engine assembly lube on all bearings and sealing surfaces.
**360 Degree thrust bearing installation**
First, install the beveled washer with the beveled side down towards the journal bearing.
Next, place 360 degree thrust bearing on to the bearing housing locating it carefully on the 2 anti-rotation pins.
Lastly, install the thrust collar into the thrust bearing with the piston ring seal facing up.
When torquing the compressor nut, follow this procedure:
On right-hand nuts, tighten the nut hand-tight until it touches the top of the compressor wheel, then turn with a 3/8" wrench approximately 1/4 of a turn.
If this is a left-handed thread, tighten the nut down hand-tight until it touches the top of the compressor wheel. Then, using a 3/8" wrench, tighten the nut approximately 1/8 of a turn. This will properly torque the nut and seat the bearings and thrust parts.
On right-hand nuts, tighten the nut hand-tight until it touches the top of the compressor wheel, then turn with a 3/8" wrench approximately 1/4 of a turn.
Jim & Gerry
G-Pop Shop
Specializing in Rebuilt, Polished Turbos
& Turbocharger Parts
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Score!
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After taking out the retaining ring, the shaft slid out with just a little pressure by hand
Here's a bunch of pictures, all taken by my 4 year old
Does crud like this build up quickly? The turbo was on a gas car for most of its life
Only on the diesel for a few hours
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3turbo1.jpeg)
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3turbo2.jpeg)
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3turbo3.jpeg)
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3turbo4.jpeg)
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3turbo5.jpeg)
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that looks pretty nasty... but of course it isn't unusual for a high mileage vehicle.
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Found some cracks and some welds that weren't ground down, keeping the wastegate from closing completely. Cleaned it a little, took some off with a file, thinking it was silver solder, but it isn't. Considered milling it, but I think between setup and cutting, I may be better off just putting some sandpaper on a flat surface and doing it by hand.
Doesn't look like a big deal to me. Anybody think differently?
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/T3WASTEGATE%20CRACK.JPG)
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/T3TURBINE%20SCROLL%20CRACK.JPG)
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went to a buddy's house and used his cabinet to bead blast some parts.
didn't go nuts, just gave it a quick once over. The center cartridge had the most rust
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3centercartridge1.jpeg)
opened the rebuild kit I got from gpop. Everything matches except for two extra parts.
Anyone know where these two extra rings go?
They were packed with the ring that seals the shaft near the turbine.
One ring matches the ring that came out of groove #1, but groove #2 was empty.
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3rebuildkitrings1.jpeg)
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There should only be one piston ring right by the turbine wheel. Ring 1 should go in groove 1 as you have labeled correctly.
The other will most likely be the one that seats in your backing plate. It installs on the thrust bearing (at least thats what i call it). But make sure to be carefull installing it into the backing plate. **this is also a place for wear so make sure that it isn't all screwed up. If its in good shape be carefull installing the ring so that it doesn't mess it up** The aluminum backing plates tend to get chewed up by the steel piston rings.
The clip holds the wastegate actuator on the pivot.
I don't know about that crack. If it was only the one by the swing valve i would say its good. But that one in the turbine wheel area, thats pretty questionable.
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I didn't come across that smaller ring when taking the thing apart.
Holding the thrust bearing in place on mine is a piece that looks like a bike sprocket, that sits in the backing plate.
In the "how to" I got a little lost reading the part about the different types of seals (no pictures :) )
Now, you have almost completely disassembled the turbo.
The last thing you must do on a dynamic seal turbo is remove the piston ring from the thrust collar,
or on a carbon seal turbo, remove the carbon seal , o-ring, washer, and spring from the backing plate.
Is the piston ring for a dynamic seal ?
I am guessing I have the carbon seal, and the bike sprocket piece is the spring?
sorry about the bad picture
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3springquestion.jpeg)
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Found some cracks and some welds that weren't ground down, keeping the wastegate from closing completely. Cleaned it a little, took some off with a file, thinking it was silver solder, but it isn't. Considered milling it, but I think between setup and cutting, I may be better off just putting some sandpaper on a flat surface and doing it by hand.
Doesn't look like a big deal to me. Anybody think differently?
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/T3WASTEGATE%20CRACK.JPG)
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/T3TURBINE%20SCROLL%20CRACK.JPG)
I do. Those suckers are not small by any means. If you dont get a good seal at the wastegate valve seat you will be pissing out boost. I Dont see how you will be able to seal those up short of welding.
Is picture #2 the turbine housing? Looks like you had contact with the turbine and the housing. Thats a pretty good crack there as well. You get that bad boy nice and hot from running big boost long enough and that fracture will not remain stable :shock: IMHO. Perhaps you should do some searching around for a turbine housing that is not so..........whooped on looking :wink:
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I don't think the turbine hit the housing. Can't find the same evidence on the wheel. I think it was a poor attempt at grinding a weld.
If I can't find a cheap housing, maybe I'll weld the cracks around the wastegate, but the ones in the housing, I don't think they'll go anywhere. If they do, I'll post pics of the carnage.
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I don't think the turbine hit the housing. Can't find the same evidence on the wheel. I think it was a poor attempt at grinding a weld.
If I can't find a cheap housing, maybe I'll weld the cracks around the wastegate, but the ones in the housing, I don't think they'll go anywhere. If they do, I'll post pics of the carnage.
getting those cracks welded in this recession shouldn't cost you more than $20-30 bucks. i know a guy around here that welds cast and does a good job for about that price. of course if machining is required afterwards then its more.
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This turbine housing is for sale. Anybody seen this flange before? The one that mates with the exhaust manifold.
SOrry I don't have a better picture. Looks like there is a round recess in it. I'm wondering if I could mill off the flange, make it flat.
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3strangehotside.jpg)
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No carbon seal, just the standard piston ring seal on each end.
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I just got the shaft and impellers back from Gpop
balanced, beautiful
they made both impellers ******* beautiful.
they look new.
Gpop is awesome.
I had taken the assy to the local balancing shop that I use to balance the high pressure and transport blower impellers I build at my day job, but tey didn't have a machine small enough to fit the turbo parts. So i sent them to gpop, and I'm glad I did.
Found a hot side housing. Should be here Tuesday. Coming from canada. Best I could find was one with a "small crack that souldn't affect performance" I'm hoping it aint that bad, I couldn't see it inthe pictures the seller sent me, so I am very hopful, but whatever the crack is, it can't be as hard to weld as my old one.
Bad news is I measured the compressor impeller and figured out its a 50 trim.
I assumed it was 40, but alas, it ain't. I'm considering looking for a vnt, but for the moment I'm going to go ahead with the T3 and wait for Andrew to point and laugh when I complain about lag.
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Hey flapjack, how long did it take for Gpop to get the shaft done? I have a shaft I need balanced and would like to give them a try if the turnaround time is short enough. I am also going through a turbo rebuild, thanks for the great documentation, keep the progress updated.
Thanks,
Kendal
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Not counting shipping, I think it was 3 workdays. I don't remember exactly.
I'll post more pictures when the used turbine housing gets here.
Glad the thread is useful :) thanks to the people answering my questions!
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Been working 2 jobs for the last month, so I haven't had much time to mess around, but I finally got the T3 rebuilt and back on the car.
Got a new (used) turbine housing without any cracks at the wastegate.
Machined the flange that bolts to the manifold and also the two faces on the wastegate side of the turbine housing.
It had some shaft play after assembly, but after running the car for a few minutes, there was no shaft play at all. None.
I don't understand that completely...i'm assuming it's got oil in it now, but why wouldn't the oil just move when you try wiggling the shaft?
So everything is great. Even got my fancy new braided SS oil return line installed.
It sounds really nice, but I still can't get over 10 psi, even with the wastegate shut.
Should a stock pump, with the fuel screw turned 1 turn, boost pin rotated to the steepest part, 2.5 downpipe be able to get more than 10psi out of a T3?
How much would it be affected by running on about 20% gas? Would the gas in the fuel be to blame for all the smoke when I floor it?
Here are some pics of the impellers after gpop cleaned and balanced them
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/t3turbine.jpeg)
(http://smellslikefries.com/posts/cleanshaftimpellers.jpg)
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did you makr your turbo wheels so you can keep them at the same clock? turbos are balanced, and the wheels need to be as close to the same position on the shaft as they were from the factory. usually make lines that point up on the compressor and turbine to help you line them back up when you put it together. i messed my turbo up bad when i rebuilt it.
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Yes, I marked up both impellers, the shaft, the nut , the center section, everything I could was marked or scribed.
now I remember I asked the same question a month ago, about getting over 10 psi . . . my mind . . . ..
I must have a leak somewhere.