VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on February 06, 2009, 09:46:42 pm
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Ahaha.. what else can go wrong right? lol
So i shall start with a story to tell you why right now i am pissy, and tired as hell. llol
Last night i was drinking with a few friends, got to bed around 1:30 after 6-7 beer. I awoke at 6 am against my will and could not get back to sleep. not only that but i was still feeling the alcohol a tad in the form of small pain in the head. So i head outside to mess around with ***, do a dump run on the day off and all that good stuff. I got my mount pressed in to the passenger side mk1 mount i need for my upcoming swap, so tonight i attempted putting the mount and pump back on. Get the mount on, get the pump on. Got the T-belt and tensioner on. hit a snag! I got the dial indicator in the pump right.. pump bolts all loose so it can move and what not. Now here lies the problem. Having the TDC mark right on, it takes a movement from where the guage reads 28 where the tdc mark is, but to get the cam lock and ip pin to fit you have to rotate the engine so the guage reads 53. I think maybe after just reading vince's how-to i need to reset the cam timing.... But what about the ip pulley, it cant be off a tooth its a very minuscule movement.. If i loosen the cam and re-do that, how will the ip get readjusted?
Man i am just too tired.. been awake 20 hours on 5 hours of sleep :( never good.. I will reattempt tommorow. Does having the pump bolts loose affect trying to set the engine and cam and all that to TDC?
i need help :? :(
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/0206092350a.jpg)
This is the TDC mark right??
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dude... find a hexagonal bolt with a head big enough to fit in there, and then twist that plastic piece out. its WAYYYYYYYYYYYY easier to find TDC without it :wink:
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First thing I thought too.
Time the cam/crank first,.. then time the pump.
Probably obvious after some sleep. :)
Cold start lever is in while timing riiiight?
I still catch myself forgeting that step occasionally. :(
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jeeze yeah man fire that plastic thing out of there and you'll be double certain. Also, it doesn't hurt to have someone looking for TDC for you while you turn it over. or if you take the GP's or injectors out it's safe to use the cam to turn it over (as there will be zip for compression).
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oh, a new day!! :P
I wasn't aware of that little plastic POS being removable. Lol i was cursing why the hole was so damned small.. lol Ok so with my head on straight here, I need to loosen the cam shaft bolt and then while holding the cam at tdc adjust the crank back to tdc. Tiny problem i think will arise here.. The pump right now is in exact relation with the cam. If i loosen the cam to adjust its timing, then the pump is still gonna be out when the crank gets back to tdc. or am i missing a crucial piece of info here? lol
lets recap, lol. right now my cam and injector pump have to be moved the same distance away from tdc so that they can be locked in. loosening the cam and readjusting the crank backwards to tdc will also move the pump out of alignment. Is this all a tell-tale sign of being a tooth off :( that thing was a PITA to get on (the belt and tensioner). What methods do you guys use for easy removal and installation of a new belt?
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You lock the cam in on the tranny side with the plate,as well as the pump sprocket with the pin.they should be lined up when your seeing the tdc on the flywheel.double check by looking at the cam, both lobes of cylinder no. 1 are facing up.
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i had to take the pump off to switch mounting brackets so the engine will fit in my mk1. when i put the pump back on with a new tensioner and belt, the pump and cam align perfectly but the do not align with the crank. Sadly i think they are a tooth off. With the cam locked and the pump locked..
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/0207091206.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/0207091206a.jpg)
That's what i get. I loosened the cam bolt.. how do you get it to spin freely? do you have to remove the pulley? it's just a smidgen off. damnit! lol All the rest has gone so well, removing and putting the pump back on was a walk in the park compared to this.. lol this is not my weekend :( lol
i need cheese
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crank isnt that far off but the cam is WAY out IMO.
I would just loosen the cam sproket so it is free. Leave the pump locked. Get the crank over just a tad. Lock the back of the camshaft there in back so it is perfectly flat. Then see if you need to take the belt off and put it on or just take the slack out of the belt with the tentioner. Then just torque the cam and IP up and your off.....after turning it at least 2 times!
BTW where did your Avitar come from?
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Diesel pump timing takes patience, lots of it, and that's why even VW gasser mechanics screw it up.
The cam pulley spins freely so it's the last thing you adjust. Because the play is so critical you should shim it equally on either side of your cam locking plate, I usually find I need two feeler gauges between 0.11 and 0.13 or so to get it nice and snug with no play at all.
Then tension the belt, crank it around a few times by hand, give the belt a whack with a rubber hammer between the cam and fuel pump sockets, then spin it around a few more times by hand.
Check tension, check TDC is good again. Repeat if necessary, then do the pump timing.
Not a job to do if you're tired. If I get frustrated I walk away for a while and do something else, then come back to it when I'm calm and have gone back through the steps in my head again.
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Be very careful if you are turning the motor over timed the way it is right now. Your valves and pistons will probably hit.
Do you have the bentley?
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read libbybapa's (andrew) above post(s) CAREFULLY. everything, including tips, are located within.
the cam pulley has to be removed. i would also go as far as to say that the bolt holding it should be replaced... cheap insurance IMO.
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as soon as vince posts he has a link in his signature to a "How To" of doing the timing? are you following that?
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crank isn't that far off but the cam is WAY out IMO.
I would just loosen the cam sprocket so it is free.
So by just loosening the big bolt on the cam sprocket, that allows the camshaft to spin free of the sprocket? i loosened the bolt and the cam does not spin free.
Do you have the Bentley?
No i dont i suck, lol i haven't been able to/ motivated to get one :(
as soon as vince posts he has a link in his signature to a "How To" of doing the timing? are you following that?
Yeah i am following Vince's expert directions, its just that this procedure is befuddling me lol I think if the belt weren't so hard to get on without moving something... then this procedure would be a lot easier on the mind :P I wanted to just start heaving *** when i was trying this last night because something was always getting on my way when i was trying to get light! oh man, lol.
the cam pulley has to be removed
Oh, I see now. So the removal of the cam sprocket will allow the cam to come back in to time..
BUT WAIT A SECOND! i think i had a revelation.. the car was dead on before i removed the old belt and tensioner.. And i didn't play around with the cam.. AND NOW the cam is still perfect with the pump like both the pin and the cam plate will slide in at the same position with the belt between the two taut. which leads me to believe the crank is where the problem lies not the cam... i mean its not like its hugely off right? just a touch, say the size of one tooth on the belt? lol
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do you have the engine timing tools?
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do you have the engine timing tools?
Sir, yes sir. I have the cam locking tool, pump locking tool, and timing guage. I'm not going in to this blind, its just blowing my mind :P
I think i may be a tooth off because the cam and pump still allign together, so i believe i am off at the crank. I will go out right now and give er' another go. wish me luck, i need it lol
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do you have the engine timing tools?
Sir, yes sir. I have the cam locking tool, pump locking tool, and timing guage. I'm not going in to this blind, its just blowing my mind :P
I think i may be a tooth off because the cam and pump still allign together, so i believe i am off at the crank. I will go out right now and give er' another go. wish me luck, i need it lol
just remember, you install the cam loose after removing it AND following libbybapa's instructions on cleaning BOTH mating surfaces. this allows you to set engine timing, as well as the injection timing. don't worry about how it all lines up now. once you follow the right procedure, it will all fall into place.
and listen to Tyler as well. do NOT try to turn the engine over at this point! but i hope you already knew that :lol:
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This is one of my hated jobs. The european SB engine on mine has a sintered (ie, liable to shatter into a billion fragments when twatted with a hammer) camshaft sprocket, no problem says I, I have a super duper two or three legged puller which will make this a doddle. So which muppet decided on five holes in the sprocket? Prime numbers are a right pain in the arse in this situation, five legged puller anyone? Of course one could pull it on the edge, but then sintered and liable to shatter into a billion bits raises its ugly head. Or can these sintered castings be pounded with impunity? :twisted:
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can't belive this howto isn't made yet on you tube
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can't belive this howto isn't made yet on you tube
TDIclub has one, but they want $$$ for it.
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can't belive this howto isn't made yet on you tube
that would save a lot of headache and thrown items im sure.. :P I mean vince's write up is tits! and a very good display of knowledge and everything, but i think my incompetence and my certain situation has got me messed.
Quick question for you guys. I bought a set of timing tools right.. and each of the two locks cam and pump fit in with barely room to spare.. SO! if i have both locks in, and i can get the needle inside the looking glass (lol) to point to the line on the flywheel.. Then i have successfully got the engine at TDC right? i am overjoyed. i think, i don't know what to feel lol
Can i move on to pump timing now!? i am excited! Timing belts are a PITA
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Ok i did the rotation, did not go past TDC. ip lock slid in beautifully, and the cam lock did sort of ok. here's what i bring for you from Affrika. or my garage lol.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/0207091853.jpg)
TDC on the DOT.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/0207091857.jpg)
Cam lock fits in.. but it only does so on a tad of an angle..
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/0207091858a.jpg)
just another angle sort of of the previous picture
The lock slides in! but its the tiniest bit off... is that ok? or does it have to be done alllllllllllllllllll again :( *** please tell me its an easy fix.. or its ok.... please please lol.
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that looks fine i do mine witha piece of bar stock thats a little small/there is some play in it but that seems locked.You can still losen the sprocket and turn the cam.
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looks like you have it bang on TDC 8)
the cam lock should be as tight as possible. that doesn't look like the standard cam locking tool either. the tighter the better! 8)
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the cam lock should be as tight as possible. that doesn't look like the standard cam locking tool either. the tighter the better! 8)
I dunno, i bought them off; a site that Shan't be named :wink: (website removed due to hatred amongst the people for said domain)
Sadly Andrew your post involves work :( lol, whereas Dillenger and Jt say its fine, and im talkin like if the cam lock was i swear .005-.010" smaller it would slide freely.. lol Sooo i think i am not going to mess with what i've got and move on to the pump :P
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oh god, IGNORE THE LINK! no one read it! no one say ... he who shant be named!
on a more pressing note, especially since it is now 90 minutes after the post...
is that blood all over the bellhousing and fly wheel? :| are you still with us Jer?
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hahaha! yeah i'm still here :P Can't kill the non-living. I just went all Goth on your asses there, did you catch it? lol
kidding, i am not Gothic and despise those who are. lol Naw, i took it in my liberty to spray a shot of red spray paint in there so i can see when i am coming up to TDC in the future.. pretty nifty i thought lol. sadly it did over shoot and get all over the housing as well.. oh well im not gonna cry about it, this isnt a perfection engine, yet one to experiment on! :)
Oh! did i hit a filling with the last post? :lol: my bad. lol They are ok quality i think.. i didnt buy them for quality, i bought them cause they were the cheapest and easiest to get to my door step lol. Well i just ate pizza, so i am good to once again venture out to the garage and set the pump timing.
This part, i hope should go seamlessly easier :lol:.
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well i bought a whole head from him and all my gauges :roll: :lol: :lol:
It's just that... like .... f***ing.... heroshima all over again when anyone mentions those domain names.
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Many performance tuners use the following:
- non-turbo pumps: 0.95mm to 1.00 mm (0.037" - 0.039")
- turbo pumps: 1.00mm to 1.05mm (0.039" - 0.041")
Stock Settings: Engine ME (1.6l non-turbo) 1986 and up 0.90 +/- 0.02mm
Unlike a gas car you can’t really hurt a diesel with a little bit too much advance… you just get more noise, less power, more emissions, and less fuel economy. If you go overboard the engine will be hard starting, sluggish, noisy, and possibly trail white smoke (unburned diesel).
So what would the advantage be of setting the pump that much more in advance? like stock is 0.90 whereas they recommend 0.95-1.00, what does the extra mm actually do? what would you set it at? what would be advantages to both settings?
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advanced timing helps with starting but can cause knocking and i THINK (i may have this part backwards) gives a more high end power curve? The oppostite for retarded timing.
I think?
Too advanced can cause isssues though
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so say i time it to 1.00 or the equivalent of .39 on my guage.. the top end of wat performance tuners do.. then i should be good eh? if not i just whip the guage out and adjust.. no biggy. Ill post back after to see if i got it running or not :P LATER
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If i had the tools i'd time mine to 1.05 probably. just to help with cold starts. I wonder how much the cold start lever thing actually advances the timing. I wish i could be there and pull it while the gauge is hooked up and see by how much.
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oh. We have different injectors. Sorry didn't notice. Well, that's what I would do.
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Don't time 130 bar injectors to 1.05. It will make it not start with the cold start out and very rattley.
Andrew
QFT.
Which is why my HOW-TO suggests 0.95-1.00mm for NA (130bar) engines. :wink:
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i would still time MY injectors to 1.05 :D
I didn't mean to cause such a stir. It would have been better if you commented on whether or not i was right about the differences between retarding the timing and advancing the timing.
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I like to leave the crank a couple of degrees BTDC until the belt is on making sure it is meshed correcly with the pump. Cam gets lightly tightened so the sproket can still turn and then the sprocket is turned CCW on the cam slightly to make sure there is no extra room for movement between cam and pump. Then crank goes the couple degrees to TDC, the tensioner gets tensioned, cam gets torqued. I still doublecheck cam after a complete rotation of crank. Works for me. Like you said experiences can vary.
I would make sure that the cam to sprocket mating surface is free from any dirt or oil. Brake parts cleaner on both surfaces. Then, with the belt on the sprocket, sprocket loosely on the cam and tightened a bit but still able to turn, make sure all of the belt slack is in the tensioner area. For this, it sometimes helps to turn the crank a couple of degrees before TDC by hand and then, while holding the cam sprocket, return the crank to TDC. Then tension the tensioner and torque the cam to 20 ft-lbs with the bar still in. Then remove the bar and using some other sprocket holding method, torque the cam to 33 ft lbs. Give the bolt a good wap with a hammer (don't beat the crap out of it, just a sharp whap). Retorque to 33 ft lbs. Whap. Torque to 40 ft-lbs whap and check. If it moves when checking, then whap rinse and repeat until it doesn't. I know of at least one cam that slipped from the factory and of several that slipped when torqued to 33. Never break loose the cam bolt with the metal bar in place. Never do the higher torque values with it in place.
That's a really good tip...going to have to remember that. I have had a trial & error experience in the past with getting the cam bang on, but that method is a good way to ensure there is no slack in the crank/pump/cam area before tightening everything down.
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98% successful. :P
I forgot to put the baffle that goes between the cam and the valve cover, and i didn't quite get the valve cover gasket sealed in one corner so it was spewing oil at the back of the head. But other than that, timed the engine to 0.39" tested to make sure the engine spun freely.. and wheeled the dolly out of the garage hooked the jumper cables up our Astro, and jerry-rigged some wiring for the ip solenoid and the starter solenoid and bobs your uncle.
had to crank it for about 7-12 seconds to prime the pump, set the gp's on for 8-10 seconds.. chu-chu-chu-Chug-Chug-Chug..etc. a delightful sound :P I was right the pump timing is nice and easy :P after it did its little warm up sputters i gave it a blip of the throttle and she purred like a kitten. I gave myself a congratulatory smack on the back, and wheeled it back inside. :lol:
I would like to thank you all for helping me out, I was goin in to this one pretty much blind.. I think for my first time just a little over t24 hours isn't bad :P!
Woooo-hooo. thanks alot guys! I don't have a Bentley so I couldn't have done it without you guys :) Cheers.
Jeremy.
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Glad to hear you got it figured out.
I still remember the first time I was going to have to time a motor. My headgasket crapped out. Rather then replacing it (which would involve timing) I just swapped in another motor. Sweet success. Until that headgasket crapped out the next week :evil:
I time everything to 0.95, NA, TD, AAZ etc. If it sounds right when I start it I leave it alone
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i find tighting the tensioner moves the crack a bit..
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i used your tips to the utmost of my ability.. but i could not for the life of me get the belt to fit on without slack.
but in the end i got had the cam locked, pump locked and the crank right on TDC. So i dunno what was up.. new belt maybe a bit off? oh well it runs like a top now.