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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: camboscams on February 04, 2009, 04:16:11 pm
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I've got a freshly rebuilt 1.6l na that i'm currently installing turbo componets and a TD.IP on (Thanks to cheifdiesel) and need to know what my limatations are as far as boost pressure is concerned. Both the head and block have been milled FLAT, new fiber 3notch heasgasket with Hylomar head gasket sealent, and new head bolts. With the IHI RH05 turbo i need to know how much boost the engine can take and not hurt the life of it, so i know were to set my wastegate.
If anyone has any ideas about this all info would be greatly welcomed.
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i think i read somewhere that 15 would be pushing it on an n/a engine simply because it lacks the few certain components of t/d engines. I think if you run stock boost like what 10-12 psi or something like that you'll be good for power over a normal n/a and won't be really hurting the engine. However i think it might not actually be the pressure that hurts the engines its the heat that comes with the pressure, and thats what slowly kills the engine. Because if you really think about it, whats diff between a n/a and a t/d.. the td is better equipped to dicipate heat.. so my theory is its the heat that will harm your engine. owever it is just a theory :P Hopefully a pro chimes in.. and tells me if im right or not? lol
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Thanks 8v, anyone done this conversion, or firsthand accounts?
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run as much boost as the engine will produce. you'll probably just blow a HG unless you run the 1.9 MLS. now if you turn up the fuel and boost, you could potentially dig the motor an early grave. mild performance increase should be ok.
i think it was MJF who was running about 180+hp out of motor with an N/A mech head, so i wouldn't worry too much about that, but i'm pretty sure his block had the oil squirters... those are necessary when running high EGT's otherwise you'll melt the pistons.
as with any diesel, black smoke is bad. tune the engine to run with no black smoke, and everything should be just fine. install an EGT gauge if you really want to push it.
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ahah! so it is the heat that wrecks these engines and not the boost. If you are to use a metal Hg and studs, as long as you tune it to run clean of black smoke you should be able to hit some crazy boost levels while maintaining the longevity of the engine. Like Jt said, its the turning up of the fuel that will produce the smoke which will melt things. lol keep the fueiling right and the boost high, and you;ll be a happy camper! :P good luck with what your doing!
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ahah! so it is the heat that wrecks these engines and not the boost. If you are to use a metal Hg and studs, as long as you tune it to run clean of black smoke you should be able to hit some crazy boost levels while maintaining the longevity of the engine. Like Jt said, its the turning up of the fuel that will produce the smoke which will melt things. lol keep the fueiling right and the boost high, and you;ll be a happy camper! :P good luck with what your doing!
boost is relative to the fuel though... you'll find that underfueled, it is much more difficult to achieve the high boost levels. i don't really like that trade-off, but there is a solution! VNT :lol:
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But if you properly fuel, like slightly under fueled so that you are not producing any smoke, and make sure you dont go over 1400 degrees you should be ok on an n/a and still be able to reach crazy numbers for an n/a engine. How does a VNT differ? what is it about it that makes them so much more likeable for n/a turbo mods? do they work differently then a normal turbo? Im sure the OP would like to hear about this as well, so this is not a thread jack :P
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Well if i had a choice i'd perfer not to melt my new "King" pistons. so basicly what i gather from these statements is to keep enough boost to keep the smoke levels down. But not enough to blow the HG.(If only i knew what the magic number is? :lol: )
but there is a solution! VNT
BTW the IHI is ballbearing 30% faster spooling then thrust bearing :twisted:
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sadly i think depending on your setup. it will be trial and error mostly. Start low and go from there. :P oh and dont forget to have some mad fun. lol
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Thats right Cheese Man! I plan on having fun regardless of my Boost Pressure!!!
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You can run 25+ PSI with out going over 1100° F egt. I've done it with my 1.5TD experiment. I ran a K24 with the waste gate disconnected, disabled blow off valve, 2.5" exhauste turbo to rear bumber, and I set the full boost EGT with the LDA pin. The free block i used was cracked, so I didn't get any long term running out of it. But it ran good, and had surprizing high RPM power.
The only issue I had was lower RPM egt. If I lugged it at all, the egt would climb rapidly. If I watched my gear selection, the EGT stayed very low.
An EGT probe is a must with a turbo on a NA motor. I was running the Spruce thermocouple and a VDO Vision gauge.
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this diagram i just made should hopefully give you an idea of why a VNT is more efficient, and faster spooling than the traditional style turbo. a ball bearing turbo will definitely be better, but a ball bearing VNT would be the real deal 8)
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5770/turbocomparisonnn2.jpg)
and the image below is the VNT turbo vane actuation. when the vanes are open, the exhaust gases are directed to the turbine. when they are closed, the exhaust gases bypass the turbine, yet the turbo can still spool at this point, showing just how efficient this system is! (because the vanes do not create a seal like a wastegate) they call some VNT systems infinitely variable, although infinitely is hard to swallow, as i'm sure there is a calculation of just how many variations there can be :lol:
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9785/vtgsequenzbk3.gif)
to give you an idea of what kind of lag these turbo's have, Tintin has some video's floating around (google video i think) where he was blipping the throttle and achieving boost spikes of 30 psi NO LOAD!!! try that with your conventional style turbo, or even ball bearing turbo??? :wink:
and saurkraut is correct about the low EGTs while running high boost, but every little bit of flow increase helps. porting, polishing, bigger exhaust, fresh air filter, etc. will all help keep the gases moving which will in turn keep the EGT's down.
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Very nice picture Jt :P
So what your saying is that with a turbo on an N/a you can run as much boost as you can generate, but in the same breath keeping your egt's low enough and not lugging it and selecting the right gear you will not harm the life of the n/a engine? that's pretty sweet! I like the sounds of this, free flowing exhaust and intake from a gasser, port matched, and egt guage. All while keeping the egt's low you can run like 25+ psi. thats insane! i love it.
So in theory boost is not the killer of a diesel engine, but the heat involved with the boost is. very noice!
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I always thought it was the compression strokes combustion pressure with the added boost that blew the head gaskets. But from Jt's statement it is the EGT's that do it.
Interesting....
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building on what jt said about boost lowering EGT
I disconnected my turbo to see what it was like with 0 boost and my egt went up to 800 with just a downpipe on it. with the turbo connected up i never saw my gauge register and it starts at 600
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I have done this conversion on my N/A diesel and so far so good. No excessive blow-by and no oil consumption so far. Still at stock boost settings 10-12psi until I find an intercooler. I go up hills in 5th gear now!
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CODE4LS1, did you notice a pretty good power gain after this gain? What were your milage numbers after this? do you have a MLS HG and head studs or are you running this much boost with a factory HG?
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You can get allot of power, with very little smoke and a low EGT.
When I was road testing my 1.5TD, it had NO PROBLEM accelerating in fifth gear. I did a four car pass with it on a two lane road where the posted speed limit was 55. It completed the pass no problem, with a terminal speed of 85MPH and it hadn't topped out yet.
Here is the formula:
Head studs
2.5" pipe, turbo to rear bumper
Pre turbo EGT measurement
TD pump
Disable the POS blow off valve.
Disconect plug the waste gate line.
Back out the governor screw the widthe of one jam nut
Readjust the pin on the throttle arm to make use of the additional travel
Fire for effect.
Studs are manditory. The metal head gasket is optional. I ran a butt load of boost (30 PSI)on my 1.6 for years with the stock head gasket and Raceware head studs, and never had a gasket failure. I eventually broke the cylinder head; cracks across the entire span of the bore, all cylinders. ( I'll clean it up and take some pictures, Its impressive) The stock head gasket was still good.
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CODE4LS1, did you notice a pretty good power gain after this gain? What were your milage numbers after this? do you have a MLS HG and head studs or are you running this much boost with a factory HG?
Very noticeable power gain. When I floor the accelerator it goes right up to 12psi and stays there. Still using the factory fiber HG and factory head bolts. No problems yet but I am buying the ARP studs and metal 1.9 HG so I can turn up the boost later.
My mileage is between 35-37 US MPG. This is because my Caddy is my work vehicle so I carry all my carpet cleaning equipment in the back, as well as the shell. My driving style also plays a part in it, as I like to go 75-80 MPH on all the freeways. I still think 35-37 MPG is excellent considering all the weight I pull around in it. My 2000 Chevy S-10 with the 4.3 V6 only got about 21 MPG at best with my driving style
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I always thought it was the compression strokes combustion pressure with the added boost that blew the head gaskets. But from Jt's statement it is the EGT's that do it.
Interesting....
nope your right...EGT's dont kill head gaskets...excessive drive pressure does....
excessive EGT's melt pistons and break down oil and engine parts...but have no effect on the HG...
EGT's do not kill headgaskets....
drive pressure is VERY important!!
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how do you lower the drive pressure?
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what exactly is the drive pressure?
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Exhaust Manifold Pressure. The bigger exhaust housing, the lower emp.
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The bigger exhaust housing, the lower emp.
As in, the exhaust turbine housing, or the manifold itself?
Very noticeable power gain. When I floor the accelerator it goes right up to 12psi and stays there. Still using the factory fiber HG and factory head bolts. No problems yet but I am buying the ARP studs and metal 1.9 HG so I can turn up the boost later.
My mileage is between 35-37 US MPG. This is because my Caddy is my work vehicle so I carry all my carpet cleaning equipment in the back, as well as the shell. My driving style also plays a part in it, as I like to go 75-80 MPH on all the freeways. I still think 35-37 MPG is excellent considering all the weight I pull around in it. My 2000 Chevy S-10 with the 4.3 V6 only got about 21 MPG at best with my driving style
Thanks CODE4LS1, that is very useful info to me! Now I know what my comfey limits are :wink: Cant wait to get this bad boy on the road, need to finish the bodywork and paint first :wink:
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Here's my once-1.6na-now-VNT15 rabbit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckHUSaZrYsE
Kind of a poor video, but it shows how quickly the turbo spools.
I'm controlling vanes with a pneumatic actuator. I quickly threw together a boost controller one day, and drove around on 15 PSI. My boost controller could not react quickly enough, or something...On every shift, I could easily spike to 20-25 psi...it pegged my 15 psi gauge quickly.
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cool video! wow vnt's spool like instantly eh? lol
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cool video! wow vnt's spool like instantly eh? lol
ya.. i like this (http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=vnt&emb=0&aq=f#q=vnt20&emb=0) video of Tintin's old VNT-20 TDI
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Thanks for the video Hamradio! You running a straight pipe exhaust, that VNT spooling up and down is loud...Awsome! :D
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Well if i had a choice i'd perfer not to melt my new "King" pistons. so basicly what i gather from these statements is to keep enough boost to keep the smoke levels down. But not enough to blow the HG.(If only i knew what the magic number is? :lol: )
but there is a solution! VNT
BTW the IHI is ballbearing 30% faster spooling then thrust
bearing :twisted:
Did you get your pistons at Parts Place by chance? I just got a rebuild kit for my T/D from them and that's what mine are. The last kit I got from them had Mahle pistons with it and I just hope these KING ones are as good as the other ones are. Actualy I'm more concerned about the rings.
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Did you get your pistons at Parts Place by chance? I just got a rebuild kit for my T/D from them and that's what mine are. The last kit I got from them had Mahle pistons with it and I just hope these KING ones are as good as the other ones are. Actualy I'm more concerned about the rings.
Sure did, hefty price, after miking the pistons (which where all to same size) i bored and honed my block, they slipped right in, noooo problems :) .......Plus they already had the cut outs for the piston oilers, i don't have them but that would be nice to skip that step if that day ever came when i wanted to install them. Time will tell how they hold up. I'll let you know how they held up about 400,000miles from March :lol:
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ive had a few different turbo diesels, and so far, my favorite combination is the 1.5 with a turbo. my current 1.5 has more power than my 1.6td had. and ive had the same turbo on all of the engines. (VNT17) and ive had no problem running 25 psi without an intercooler. i wouldnt suggest doing this by any means.. but they will handle it. i accidently ran 37 psi into my first 1.5, and lets just say that the block was screwed after that. head studs and metal gaskets wouldnt have saved me there. i cracked the threads and block/deck. the head gasket was fine until there was only 7 bolts holding torque on the head. but as of now, im running a max boost of about 18 psi and i have hardly any smoke. i still dont have an EGT gauge tho. but if you keep it under 15 psi or so, you should have no ill effects to the longevity of the engine. i run my diesel hard when i drive it just because i know i can..
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Did you say your running head studs and a MLS hg on a 1.5l.... Where did you get it i want one!!! (for the 1.5l)
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Did you say your running head studs and a MLS hg on a 1.5l.... Where did you get it i want one!!! (for the 1.5l)
If your useing the 11mm fasteners, just use the 1.9 AAZ metal head gasket and center the bolt holes as best you can befor you lower the head. If you useing the 12mm fasteners, no problem. I got my head studs for the 1.5TD and 1.6TD from Raceware.
I did the 1.5TD thing as an R&D project as I suspected that the shorter stroke, longer rods, and same size bore were indicators that the engine could possibly generate more HP at high RPM than the 1.6. I even had a special 1.5TD pump built by Bosche from a yellow dot 1.5 pump and the LDA top from a 1.6TD pump. From the 100 or so miles that I tested it, it indicated that there were gold in them there hills.
However, it was always pressureizing the cooling system, be it with the original head, studs and fibre gasket, the original head, studs, and metal head gasket, or the last itteration, which was a brand new 1.6 11mm head, studs and metal head gasket. It was always a slight leak, so I suspected the block was cracked, but i haven't tore into it yet.
I was running a k24, and its probably a little big for the 1.5. A VNT would do a better job. The k24 wouldn't build significant boost at lower RPM and the EGT would shoot up, until the rpm climbed up enough to spin the turbo. It did have impressive higher RPM power. Boost would stabilize around 25 PSI, and the EGT would drop down to somewhere around 1100° F or lower, and it would really fly. I don't think high boost is a killer in these engines, but too much fuel (smoke) will do them (and 1.6s) in. An EGT measurement is cheap and very easy to install, especially when you have everything appart, and it really removes all doubt. A VDO vision EGT gauge, coupled with the Aircraft Spruce thermocouple is very effective combination. I think I even have an extra white faced VDO egt gauge laying around somewhere and an extre Spruce thermocouple that I'll let go for cheap if your interested.
I suspect all 1.5 blocks are stressed out right from the factory as the original head bolts don't even use half of the thread depth in the block. So when they torqued them at the factory, the damage was done.
If you can find a good 1.6 block, it would be definatly worthwhile to put the 1.5 guts into it.
I will resurect the 1.5TD project soon. It will use a 1.6 or 1.6td block. I have to see if I can machine the small ends of the 1.5 rods to accept the bigger 1.6TD wrist pin and bushing, as there is no such thing as oversized 1.5 pistons.
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well, i have a 1.5 with a cracked block, but perfect internals, i have a REAL TD motor out of an 84 jetta that i picked up for 250 bucks years ago. i also have access to 2 1.6 n/a's and im pretty sure my grandpa has an 11mm 1.6 head. i have the real lda pump and turbo injectors. im running a gasser intake just for the huge intake runners. my head is ported and gasket matched on the intake side. i have a 4 spd trans right now and i can burn rubber clear through second gear on dry pavement (3rd if its kinda wet). i dont have an intercooler yet. but im still running a stock pump and jectors as we speak. but, the 1.5 still went better with n/a fuel supply. and im comparing that to my 1.6TD and i had both set ups on it, the 1.6 turbo pump & inj, and i had the 1.5 pump and injectors too for a while. it would never spool the turbo as fast, and not have near as much top end power, it did always have a little more torque it seemed. and that 1.5/1.6TD.. keep me updated on that.. cause i have enough good parts to build one. and i just had another thought. as you were saying to get the 1.5 rods resized for 1.6 pistons im pretty sure wouldnt work unless you figured out some way to get your compression back up.. cause the 1.6 pistons have the wrist pin hole closer to the head of the piston. 1.5's have there hole damn near a quarter inch lower than that.. and actually, whoever told you there is no such thing as 1.5 over size piston, is lying to you.. i have a set of 1mm oversize pistons and rings.
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If your useing the 11mm fasteners, just use the 1.9 AAZ metal head gasket and center the bolt holes as best you can befor you lower the head.
I am using tha 11mm hb's. The centering of the headbolts makes sence but the center oil drain back hole is much smaller on the 1.5l then the 1.6l, how would that work??
I think I even have an extra white faced VDO egt gauge laying around somewhere and an extre Spruce thermocouple that I'll let go for cheap if your interested.
Saurkraut I am very interested in that guage and spruce tc. if it turns out you do still have it and would want to sell it, let me know what price and payment method.
Rabbit on Roids, as for engine parts i have one set of 1.5l engine parts and 3 compleat 1.6lna engines... Well how this turbo build is working out is i started out with a 1.5l engine (which when i started the rebuild i did'nt know that it was a 1.5l untill i went to assemble the pistons to rods after i bored the block 40 over) and took the 1.6l crank and rods and put them into the 1.5l block, and used the 1.5l mechanical head and everything else. So as of engine parts i'm set but if anything comes up i'll let you know.
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well, i have a 1.5 with a cracked block, but perfect internals, i have a REAL TD motor out of an 84 jetta that i picked up for 250 bucks years ago. i also have access to 2 1.6 n/a's and im pretty sure my grandpa has an 11mm 1.6 head. i have the real lda pump and turbo injectors. im running a gasser intake just for the huge intake runners. my head is ported and gasket matched on the intake side. i have a 4 spd trans right now and i can burn rubber clear through second gear on dry pavement (3rd if its kinda wet). i dont have an intercooler yet. but im still running a stock pump and jectors as we speak. but, the 1.5 still went better with n/a fuel supply. and im comparing that to my 1.6TD and i had both set ups on it, the 1.6 turbo pump & inj, and i had the 1.5 pump and injectors too for a while. it would never spool the turbo as fast, and not have near as much top end power, it did always have a little more torque it seemed. and that 1.5/1.6TD.. keep me updated on that.. cause i have enough good parts to build one. and i just had another thought. as you were saying to get the 1.5 rods resized for 1.6 pistons im pretty sure wouldnt work unless you figured out some way to get your compression back up.. cause the 1.6 pistons have the wrist pin hole closer to the head of the piston. 1.5's have there hole damn near a quarter inch lower than that.. and actually, whoever told you there is no such thing as 1.5 over size piston, is lying to you.. i have a set of 1mm oversize pistons and rings.
1.5 parts aren't sold anymore. the 1.6's took over... because the 1.5's aren't as reliable.
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i call bull*** on a 1.5 not being as reliable.. im 20 years old and i have a really heavy foot. the only thing ive had that will stand up to my abuse is a 1.5. my 1.6 engines sucked and were pretty gutless. i think the 1.5 is more suitable for high revving turbo application. they have soo much more top end power.
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Saurkraut, sent you a PM...