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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: captainpartytime on December 28, 2008, 11:40:32 pm
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Should I loctite the head studs threading into the block on my 1.6L TD build? The ARP instructions say to thread them in hand tight but that makes me nervous as I want to use an allen wrench to at least get them snug. What is the explanation on tightening them hand tight?
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they want you to go hand tight because if you wrench them tight with a allen wrench..then torque the stud nuts to spec there is a good chance you will bottom out the stud in the block hole and crack the block or break your stud off in the block...
hand tight is fine...and recommended.
I know you can use loc-tight(on the block side as per ARP install sheet) but I dont see any need for it??
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x2
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If you threadlockered the block end and only went hand tight would there be less of a chance of them turning deeper into the block and cracking it? Or backing out if loosened? You would have to wait for it to set up, but I don't see a huge disadvantage, I would probably use the red high temp stuff though.
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The instructions say that if you use Loctite with the ARP studs, the torquing sequence must be completed prior to the Loctite setting up.
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makes sense I guess. you wouldn't want the stud not to turn if it was supposed to to get the correct torque. I don't have my studs yet, but I will watch this to see what happens.
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I would't use loctite. In some vehicles I've heard that if the engine is assembled before it's in the car and then later if you have to remove the head, {which we always do} dependng if manifolds and such are still attached {if you want to do it that way} the studs won't give you enough room :x and there is really nothing to gain gy doing it in the first place. I just put ARP's in my TD motor I'm building and gave it some thought aso, but then started thinking if one of these things ever snaps, pulls threads in block or whtever then it would be a hell of a mess to get them out. No sense creating a possible problem later on for no gain now. If you want to seal them or something for whatever reason, just clean the holes with some brake cleaner, blow it dry and just RTV them, pipe dope, or whatever. :)
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Doesn't ARP themselves say to use a non-hardening thread sealant?
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If you want to seal them or something for whatever reason, just clean the holes with some brake cleaner, blow it dry and just RTV them, pipe dope, or whatever. :)
not sure if you are advising him to use RTV on the stud threads or not???
but just to make sure nobody else misunderstands...you for sure DO NOT want to use RTV or pipe sealant on the stud threads.
ONLY use the moly lube or oil recommended by ARP for torquing the studs.
I still say hand tight...no sealer or thread loc....and LOTS of moly lube... 8)
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I read the installation instructions and thought they meant handtight and dry into the block. You are supposed to moly lube the part of the stud were the nut goes on but I don't see any point in moly lubing the stud were it screws into the block 'cause it's not supposed to turn past handtight anyways.
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I read the installation instructions and thought they meant handtight and dry into the block. You are supposed to moly lube the part of the stud were the nut goes on but I don't see any point in moly lubing the stud were it screws into the block 'cause it's not supposed to turn past handtight anyways.
Exactly. I don't even see why it's such a big deal?
When you put the nuts on them they will get damn tight enough anyways.
Yes, only use the moly lube where the nuts thread on (the fine threads).
It's a stud... just think about how it works :P
Worst case scenario the stud comes out the next time you take the head off... oh no... what will we do now?
if you use the moly lube on just the fine threads (where the nut goes) that shouldn't happen.
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Thanks guys for the info. I my initial instinct was to thread them in dry into the block and moly lube the nuts but I wanted to make sure with the general consensus since this is my first motor rebuild. Thanks again as always!
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I just reread the instructions. ARP says, Since most studs extend into the water jacket, coat threads with ARP thread sealer and screw in hand tight ONLY.
Then it says;
NOTE: To ensure positive sealing of "wet" head studs, a hardening or semi-hardening sealant, such as Loc-tite or Permatex, ect. should be used. Some engine builders employ a sealer in the coolant, such as Aluma-Seal, Silver Seal or K&W sealer, ect. You may also use high temp RTV silicone. Whatever product is used, it is imperative that the cylinder head is installed and torqued to proper levels BEFORE THE SEALANT HAS CURED!
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That all makes no sense to me. One of the reasons to use studs is to prevent the threads in the block from damage due to bolts being installed/removed multiple times. If you followed their recommendations to the letter, every time you remove the head you would have to remove the studs, clean up the threads and reinstall. You would be better off just getting good quality bolts. If you ever watch top fuel drag racers, they remove the heads after every single run, but you will never see them remove a stud. As far as sealing the studs, why? Do you seal the bolts? I've never heard of anyone putting sealant on the bolts. It sounds to me as if these are generic, catchall instructions, not engine specific ones.
We use studs all over the place on the trucks we build, and every single one gets Loctited in place and the Loctite is always allowed to harden prior to torquing any nuts on the studs. One reason for doing this is that in the majority of applications you want to ensure that you have a specific length in the block, and sufficient protrusion, and you want to keep this from changing. Just a comment on the studs that guys have had fail or strip, this is a sure sign that you used the wrong/junk stud or it was way over-torqued. A properly designed stud for the application will never have this happen.
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All of what I wrote in my last post was straight out of the ARP catalog, NO, I don't seal my bolts. I suspect if you ordered studs they would send better instructions for your particular engine.
One of the reasons to use studs is to prevent the threads in the block from damage due to bolts being installed/removed multiple times. If you followed their recommendations to the letter, every time you remove the head you would have to remove the studs, clean up the threads and reinstall.
I don't know where you heard that. The reason for sealing them was, on some engines, the bolts extend into the water jacket, so they don't always need sealing.
You would be better off just getting good quality bolts.
The whole point of studs is so you don't have to use bolts, with a bolt you're twisting it into the block putting lots of pressure on the threads, a stud only pulls straight up. That is what I read, I can't back anything up.
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The reason I got studs {ARP} ones is because I don't like these damn stretch bolts with all this {ad another 1/4 turn}, {use them one time} courser threads while torquing not to mention strength. Another thing that really bothers me today is where are those stretch bolts made unless you go to the dealer and if I have to start doing that I'll be back playing with Chevy's again. I'm sure you can probably take a head bolt, and go to the Fastenal store and get a stud that's as good as an ARP or Raceware for half the price or less but these are nice. One of the things I like most with these are when you are torquing you don't have those creaking sounds and all those uneasy jerky feelings that are associated with the bolts no matter how clean the threads are. And again with ARP all I have to do is sit here on my ass, push buttons and spend money. Ain't it fun :lol:
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well "our" ARP studs are for what ... a cosworth or some crap like that? Probably a totally different head design.
Hence the contraversy with torque specs, sealant, loctite, the list goes on. They aren't "proper" they're just better than the flippin stretch bolts. :P
It's just innocent questions being asked and hopefully answered; asked by those who obviously don't know (other wise they wouldn't be asking?) so no need to be antsie! No one's accusing anyone of anything! :roll:
my sixpence: take it easy 'n' have fun!
( i too hate the snapping sounds with stretch bolts, good golly what a terrible feeling!!!)
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DON'T dare go to fastenal...Call me. LOL. I work at a nut and bolt house and if you were to go to a fastenal around here you probably wouldn't spend any less than ARP. Also if the guy working there never had a job with another nut and bolt place or knew what is going on you would have to find the stuff yourself. The fastenals around here are the walmart greeters of the fastener industry. I am looking at some SPS Unbrako stuff for my engine, but still haven't decided on which material or know what the cost is. If it isn't any better I will go with the Racewares.
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DON'T dare go to fastenal...Call me. LOL. I work at a nut and bolt house and if you were to go to a fastenal around here you probably wouldn't spend any less than ARP. Also if the guy working there never had a job with another nut and bolt place or knew what is going on you would have to find the stuff yourself. The fastenals around here are the walmart greeters of the fastener industry. I am looking at some SPS Unbrako stuff for my engine, but still haven't decided on which material or know what the cost is. If it isn't any better I will go with the Racewares.
Yeah, I know what you are saying about the help in a lot of places like that. You go in there in the first place hoping you can get some professional advice trying to get something at least as good as or better than OEM after seeing their product adds and such and then get in this nice new store, computers about 5 feet apart and such and you think Man, I'm gonna get some good stuff now, then you get the Wal-Mart Greeter and he says without a part # I can't help you. You feel like saying, "Please just get the hell out of the way and let me get back there and look for myself." They probably have something good back there or can get it and it just can't be found. That's what is nice about this forum, other people have already been through the same thing and already found the {Good Stuff} and the bad too and we all can learn. :D
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I can not remember if the head bolt holes are blind or extend right through into the water jacket of these engines. If they are blind there is no reason to put anything onto the threads of the head stud where it goes into the block. If the hole goes into the water jacket you need to put a sealant on the threads. I have alot of experience with Chevrolet engines and even on the cheapest beater 350 there is a good chance of coolant entering the crankcase if you do not put sealant on the threads of the head bolts/studs. The sealant is there from the factory and new and/or jobber head bolts come with sealant on the threads already.
I can check at my shop tomorrow on the configuration of the holes if nobody else here knows for sure.
If the ARP sealant is not supplied or available liquid brushable teflon works fine.
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Oh yeah -> NO LOCTITE EVER!
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Got my TD on the stand in the basement and all the holes I see are blind.
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Mine are also blind on my 1600 TD, if you still aren't sure just put a long screwdriver in hole an :) d see
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A good can of nothing should work fine then.
ARP usually supplies a moly based lube to put on the threads on the top end of the stud. That is all that should be needed.
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Out on the bench in the garage...block holes are blind on the 11mm CR too...could the reference be to thread sealing the part of the stud where it passes through the heads coolant jacket (the top, front facing port)????
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could the reference be to thread sealing the part of the stud where it passes through the heads coolant jacket (the top, front facing port)????
All that stuff I wrote is actually pretty useless for our engines, it's what ARP said about SOME engines. I know the holes on ours are dead end, in the bentley it says make sure the holes don't have any oil in 'em, that's because it'll compress the oil and you might crack the block.
Sorry if I confused anyone. :oops:
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A good can of nothing should work fine then
Part #?
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A good can of nothing should work fine then
Part #?
010-fluff
or
sailboat fuel from any mariners supply store should work fine.
:)