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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Powered by Spearco on December 09, 2008, 11:05:25 pm
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I'm thinking of using an auto trans. from a Chrysler 2.2L turbo Le Baron for my TD Scirocco drag car. Yah, thats right I said Chrysler and auto transmission.
I know that the Dodge Omni used the VW block and their trans. together. Well what would be the benifits of using that trans. vs. the VW auto trans.
I know that there are more upgradeable parts, well just parts for them in general.
Thinking of using the internals from a 4 cylinder Caravan and putting them it the "413" case. 2000rpm stall converter, mod the valve body, and shift kit. Maybe a spool. What do you think? :twisted:
Of course adapt the axles to fit the VW outter CV's.
Right now theres a complete setup on VWvortex, trans. section.
You can get Caravans and LeBarons for next to nothing.
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I'm almost done with putting a 1.6TD in a Caravan. http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15633&start=120
You can see my axle splice there. I would use the VW trans as the weakness of Chrysler auto trans is well known. I worked at the tech center for 5 years. They have had problems with auto trans for years now. On adapting their trans, yes VW did the initial "K" car platform of which the Omni, Lebanon, and Caravan share. But, they have several different trans packages with different bell housings. On one Caravan, the top of the bell housing has a passage for a 1 1/2" coolant line to exit the end of the block ! Is a Mitsubishi V-6 - sill arrangement, but shows yet another iteration of their packaging. I'd keep the VW trans, as I did although I am using a manual, the axles are the same. In my thread, you'll find a factory axle shaft with VW inner CV and Chrysler wheel splines.
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I've got a VW 3 speed auto on my turbo G60 rabbit. In stock form it works well. Shifts are lazy, of course, but once I nip that in the bud, it'll rock. 1st gear is all wheelspin, second pulls like a MF (I don't mean the 1.6L TD MF!). I haven't had it in third yet. (early stages of bug removal)
The big enemy is ATF overheat. I installed an oil cooler.
Burn_your_money recently overhauled one, and said that there's plenty of room in the clutch drum for more discs and stators.
There is (was?) a 9 second 2L 16v turbo rabbit in Brazil that used a modded VW 3 spd autobox.
Pretty hard to beat a good autobox in the drags. Turbos love pulling against tall gears.
I agree with above.
Keep the VW box.
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Man I wish there was a 4spd auto. I would be in heaven with a slushbox..
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they do have 4 spds... mk4, B3 and B4. They suck. Electronic control killed the joy.
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Ya I would want a mech controlled one.
I'm not about to add electronics to my car.
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Ya I would want a mech controlled one.
I'm not about to add electronics to my car.
I'm with you there - the Radio/GPS is the only place I want any transistors.
The "auto" trans for a diesel Smart car is a manual trans with servos connected to the linkages.
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my dad blew the trans in his old '94 caravan very early (i think around 50-60k km from lots of towing) and had it replaced under warranty.. after that he put this huge tranny cooler on it and voila... we were towing lots of stuff in it (even 3500 lbs of limestone once) and it never had an issue. it got stolen and they put fish/lobster juice in it (ya... lame) so my dad didnt want to keep it.
so no matter the autobox you get, put in a nice big tranny cooler on it!!! air/air works best i think... i've seen the ones that use the heat exchanger with the coolant system fail. not good!!! but i suppose they do help warm the engine and tranny up quicker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy9vy0pduMA
that video shows what an autobox can really do :) btw was the autobox in that golf 4spd or 3spd???
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hot chick in a nitrous-breathing diesel. I'm in love!
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In love with the chick? Or the nitrous breathing diesel? :lol:
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Do you think they increased the boost or fueling for that?
I think more fuel and no BOV + a plugged waste gate and it would rocket!!!
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In love with the chick? Or the nitrous breathing diesel? :lol:
yes. :D
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Ya I would want a mech controlled one.
I'm not about to add electronics to my car.
I'm with you there - the Radio/GPS is the only place I want any transistors.
The "auto" trans for a diesel Smart car is a manual trans with servos connected to the linkages.
Yuppers, I added a Navi system and DVD for the kiddies but if either stop working I can still drive.
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you need the 404 transmission from a 78 to 82 omni this car came with a dodge transmission with vw bolt pattern bellhousing for the 1.7 VW engine. most of these cars have been crushed
superior transmission makes a full manual shift kit for the 413 / 404 transmission its about $40 ?ebay?, if you look hard enough at turbododge.com you can find the instructions on how to make it full manual for free I very strongly recommend the full manual shift kit as opposed to letting the transmission think for itself.
buy and read the ATSG service manual very useful
the 413 is a very strong transmission, and rebuilding it to bulletproof is super cheap.
down sides, the transmission is heavy, the parts inside of it are heavy, and the power needed to operate the hydraulic pump that makes it work reduces the amount of power to the wheels making the car slower. the 404 has no lock up so the torque converter slips forever, negative mpg, but I would not want a lock up automatic t.c. because of the heat it makes and the lock up that doesn't stay locked up if the gas pedal is pushed down, and the friction material dirt that comes off. the 404 flexplate has 3 tiny bolts for the torque converter, the bolts need to be larger and stronger, how to upgrade this has been covered somewhere. engine must be on at all times, automatics cannot be moved with the engine off because with no pump running there would be no lubrication for any of the bearings , no coasting, no towing.
given the choice between a 413 and a manual i would pick an 02a or an 01a or 01e audi transmission with a torsen diff
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Voodoo, thanks for the info and insight about this trans. I was thinking of using it strickly for drag racing only, not for highway use. The car would be stripped of most of its weight; fuel tank, spare tire well, interior and some glass. I don't even think I'll be using the power assist brakes or the alt.
Just tring to come up with a different idea for a trans.
Is there any trans rebuild kits for the MK1 or MK2 auto's that would hold up to the thrashing I'll give it a 1/4 mile at a time.
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WOW !! I did not understand this was not for the street - forget what I said about using the VW - do what Voodoo says and you'll have a fun toy. Let us know how it works out and how often you break things !! (Every drag racer I've known always breaks something)
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same topic better info.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2877220
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Just checked it out. Man thats great stuff. Thanks.
I can get a auto from an MK1 or a MK2 fairly cheap too.
I'll be following that thread.
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Just checked it out. Man thats great stuff. Thanks.
I can get a auto from an MK1 or a MK2 fairly cheap too.
I'll be following that thread.
Now if they just had a taller final gear.
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Was talking to a fellow VW buff, and he said that alot of power is lost through the converter? Why? If one was to have a custom converter built, it would be better. I really want to do something different than everyone else instead of the same old same old. Just doing a bit of research before building and spending a great deal of $$$.
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how bout automatic with no converter. no i'm not kidding you really dont need a torque converter with an automatic just hydraulic pressure from the pump to apply pressure to the clutches and bands. and a clutch pedal for the automatic.
http://www.tciauto.com/Products/CircleTrack/circle_track_pump_drives.asp
oops sorry that was my little fantasy of going back to an American V8 motor that I can find parts and support for instead of fighting with German diesel elves and their pet Brazilian gremlins.
a 20 valve 1.8T vw motor with a 6 speed 01e transmission, these transmissions, and the 5 speed 01a transmission that is similar to it, come from the factory with torsen "peloquin like" differential and are very strong.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/diy_ak47/motor/saveiro20v4.jpg)
or if you want an automatic get a real one like this vw engine with a chevy powerglide 2 speed adapted to it.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/diy_ak47/motor/baredragster.jpg)
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Just checked out the link and didn't find anything for the VW trans. Did you see something there that would work?
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Was talking to a fellow VW buff, and he said that alot of power is lost through the converter? Why? If one was to have a custom converter built, it would be better. I really want to do something different than everyone else instead of the same old same old. Just doing a bit of research before building and spending a great deal of $$$.
Most of the heat an auto trans gives off is from the power lost to the fluid mixing in the converter. That is why the only auto trans to get close to a manual in mpg all have a locking torque converter. This lock is a very common thing to break on Chrysler auto trans.
I've never seen one step up to run w/o a converter. That would be a challenge for a GM auto as on many of them the converter turns the pump.
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I just wanted to say that a lock up torque converter dramatically decreases heat due to there not being any "fluid shear" in side the torque converter. Fluid shear is th fluid being thrown of the turbine and into the impeller. Most older auto boxes have just small 2 wire solenoids controlling torque converter lock up and would be easy to wire a switch and they can hold alot of power while keeping the trans cool. A torque converter is also a torque multiplier and can multiply up to 3:1. This occurs at WOT stall launches but the converter torque multiplying starts to decrease as the wheels start to turn. As for a stall speed a factory vw 3spd is very close to 3000 rpm from the factory so that would be the best bet for a big turbo TD drag car. Also for cooling of the transmission I have converted a\c condensor into trans coolers and they work beautifully!, and there cheap because people throw them away because nobody wants ac\.I hope that will help you guys in some of your decisions.
Jeff
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http://www.turbodiy.com/
website of a guy with a 9 second turbo neon who uses a 413 transmission.
the website has a very well documented list of mods for a 413 transmission including how to fix the valve body to full manual.
I looked for this level of support for VW automatic transmissions and I did not find any.
I still recommend the 02a transmission.
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Voodoo, thanks for the web site. Lots of goodies there.
:?: Do you remember the Dodge Omni with the 1.7 VW engine.
Do you or anyone know if that flex plate will fit the VW crankshaft bolt pattern and Dodge torque converter bolt pattern?
That would be the money shot if it did. The pefect fit.
Otherwise, I'd have to have one custom made.
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(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/diy_ak47/VE_gear/DSCN0438Medium.jpg)
a picture of a toyota flywheel with VW bolt pattern drilled into the empty spaces. this is an idea about how to get a 4 bolt dodge flexplate connected to a VW crank.
what was wrong with the 02a transmission idea? it bolts right in, its really cheap, and you wont break it. it was so easy to do I even put one in my car.
ok fine the hard way.
1978; chrysler corporation is inches from going bankrupt and ceasing to exist, lee iacocca saves chrysler by coming out with really cheap economy cars, and cutting every corner to build them. starting with the 404 transmission
the 1978 omni with the 1.7 vw engine had a dodge flexplate with vw crank bolt pattern for the dodge 404 transmission.
the quick answer would be yes a completely stock 404 will bolt right up to a vw engine and all that would be needed would be custom engine and transmission mounts and custom axles.
the 404 transmission has issues, the rear band is not adjustable, all other torqueflite transmissions have adjustable bands, the clutch pack holds only 2 clutches, most other torqueflites hold 4, more is better, the ring gear carrier bearing is small and weak as compared to a newer larger design found in the neon transmission. the flexplate has 3 bolts to hold the torque converter as compared to 4 for newer designs, the transmission itself would need ALOT of work done to it to get it to work, like everything inside replaced with different parts
then you will need custom axles.
custom transmission mounts
before you attempt this you might want to become an expert on 413 transmissions , I believe you will need several parts transmissions to complete this, a neon transmission for ring gear carrier bearing retainers and a carrier, a v6 minivan transmission for more clutches. you also might need to buy a whole omni car to get the vw 404 transmission
on the bright side 413 clutches are $1.89 each
life is too short for this please go with a nice 02A
.
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Ha ha. Everyone is saying that too.
A niebor down the street is a big Chrysler power dude. Hes got the trans and some parts for around $100, not including the rebuild kit . He can get new torque converters for around 50 bucks, planet carriers for 50 bucks. The local wrecking yard wants $125 for tranys and the cost of the axles could'nt be that much to fit the rizzeppa VW ends. Its not like this motor is going to put out even 200hp. The stock auto trans should be able to hold up to the diesel power of this engine. As far as studying the 413 trans., all Ive done sence you told me about that web site is read and read about that trans and the 670 too.
I hate to say it but, yah, I may as well just through in a G60 or Passat trans in it and go. But think about how fun it would be to have an auto.
The flex plate issue, I'll probably just use the VW one and drill new holes to fit the auto side of things.
Got a VW auto flex plate? :oops: :lol: