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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: DieselSteed on December 03, 2008, 07:36:19 am
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I have a 82 pick-up that came stock with a 1.6NA+5 speed (FF). I am putting a TurboDiesel ('85 MF) in its place ( the NA got tired after 215K). I have a 4 speed from a rabbit I have been considering installing with the upgrade and would like to hear yer opinions, pros and cons, to the upgrade(?). I drive a lot of highway, but also enjoy showing up the rice burners when in the ***ty (I mean city)...
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That FF trans is damn near the best trans for freeway cruising.
nice high 5th gear @ .71.
What code is the 4 spd?
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I'd swap the engines but keep the FF tranny... The over drive is something your engine will miss sorely.
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The four speed is code GP which I believe 4th is @0.70. Not a big difference top end but what about the lower gears in town?
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I would try and find a 7A code transaxle, good gear spacing with a 3.94 R&P and a .71 5th.
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GP (3+E from '81) 3.89 3.45 1.75 1.06 0.71
FN, FF, FH, FJ (most from '81) 3.89 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.71
Ya the 4 spd wouldnt be much different.
Same R&P and same top gear and same 1st gear.
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Looking at gear ratios when they are numbers is one thing. Living with one of these 3 + E transmissions is really quite another. I ran one of these in a Rabbit for several years and many miles. I would never use the term "upgrade" and 3 + E in the same sentence....or on the same page.
Going from an FF to the GP will (in practice) be an endless source of frustration and annoyance. You will still be able to do battle with the "ricers".....as long as they are being towed by a turtle.....with a broken leg.
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I better add, that was with a resonably fresh N/A (not turbo). The problem was that there is such a large gap between gears. As far as economy went, this trans actually cost more fuel as I was always working hard to simply bring it up to speed. Top end was surely overdrive....if you ever got there :x !!!
That was at 4,000 ft and above elevation and rolling hills.
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I gotta agree with DakotaKid. The 3+E sucks. I drive one every day and am counting down the days till I can swap a five speed in. The gears are sooooooo far apart that the higher 5th has no advantage. Stick with the five speed.... or sell it to me :lol:
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I run a FN 5-speed, I can't imagine how gutless a 4-speed would be. Mine is a N/A though so wide gearing would really be miserable. :D
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wide gearing+N/A=No fun+no mileage
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Close gearing + Turbo diesel = Loads of fun
if you are looking for ricer kick a$$ abilities... then i suggest finding a close ration trans.. such as a 4K, 2H or AWY.. All respectively with the 5th gear swapped for a .75 or .71
4K 3.94 3.45 2.12 1.44 1.13 0.89
swap that fifth for a .75 or .71 and you'd be able to really rocket through town.. however you might have to ride 4th a little high before you could shift in to 5th without stalling the engine.. but hey.. itd be worth it to pull of some quick 0-60 times. I have this trans in my 84 gassser and it makes my 76hp feel ALIVE! so im sure a TD would be a great match to it for city driving. you could cruise in town in 4th gear around 1900-2000 rpm.. :P
just a newbs $0.02 lol
good luck
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Thats my plan since my 4-spd has the .71 :D from everything i read, i can swap that overdrive gear into a 5spd. That should be the ticket
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A close ratio tranny with a 5th gear swap does seem the way to go. Thanks for the input.
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I have 2 caddies that will have a 1.9TDI(mech IP) and a 1.6TD. One of them will have a 9A trans from a cabby(close ratio) and I will swap 5th gear out for a .71 from a FF or FN.
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hell yeah im in the middle of a gas -> diesel swap.. going N/a tho :P
i will be using the AWY that came with the engine.. while i have the 4K that came outta my car rebuilt and beefed up for when i go TD :)
seriously though.. a TD with a close ratio.. you will be one of the quickest cars in town if you wish to be :P be able to really take advantage of that low end grunt.
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Close Ratio is the way to go! I have an ASF bolted to an Eco. Even without boost it gets rolling really well. Highway is nice with the .75 fifth, ~3,000 RPM @ ~80 MPH. If I ever get an excuse I'll switch it for a .71. that would make it the perfect transaxle IMHO.
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You guys are making me jealous... I love my wide ratio tranny on the freeway, but I only actually drive on any kind of highway maybe 5% of the time. My "normal" cruising is all in 3rd gear everywhere...
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I hav in the back of my head a kinda close ratio trans swap.
I took out of my car a perfectly good AWY which has a 3.94 R&P and a .89 5th.
So around town it was a blast but it was useless on the freeway.
Well I have a FF as well but it has the wrong mounts to bolt in. So, I'm thinking about pulling the .71 5th out of it and swapping it into the AWY.
I would end up with 100 higher RPM's in 5th gear than I have now but it would be WAY more usable around town..
Then I can sell the ACN I have now which is a damn good trans but tall geared for around town.
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yeah.. %95 of my driving is in town.. so even with the 1.7 it makes it a good car for in town... still ok on the highway even with the .89.. however with the 1.7 i have the rpm's to be able to manipulate to work for me.. it will be unlikely the same case in the diesel :P but i plan to put a .75 or .71 in it for those rare cruising moments on the hwy.. cuz when i do use it.. its for longer trips.. 2-350 kms.. so it would be useful.. and would be pretty much a 4 speed around town :P woot woot
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yea my ideal tranny would be 4 speeds for in town and 5th for cruising on the highway.
as it stands, my car can go 50-60 in 5th gear around town... engine barely lugs too :roll: really sucks that 1st gear is almost useless for accelerating though!!! it winds up so fast that it cant even build more than 1-2 psi :lol: damn i hate this tranny!!!
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yea my ideal tranny would be 4 speeds for in town and 5th for cruising on the highway.
as it stands, my car can go 50-60 in 5th gear around town... engine barely lugs too :roll: really sucks that 1st gear is almost useless for accelerating though!!! it winds up so fast that it cant even build more than 1-2 psi :lol: damn i hate this tranny!!!
Which one do you have?
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yea my ideal tranny would be 4 speeds for in town and 5th for cruising on the highway.
as it stands, my car can go 50-60 in 5th gear around town... engine barely lugs too :roll: really sucks that 1st gear is almost useless for accelerating though!!! it winds up so fast that it cant even build more than 1-2 psi :lol: damn i hate this tranny!!!
Which one do you have?
i'm not even sure... maybe i should go look sometime. i'm almost suspecting that someone did a gasser tranny swap on it (it's that bad) because my '86 jetta TD had some insane gearing and got great mileage despite needing quite a bit of work (just had new rings-not even a hone job)
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JT, that almost sounds like a gas AUG code trans....the way you describe it. I've got one of these in my gas 85 Jetta and I want to "shelf" it or shove it....or something!!!!!!!! It's like running a 125 cc motocross bike.
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I've tried a few 4 and 5 speeds. Here are my thoughts, for whatever they're worth.
AWY: Is a piece of *** trans (3.94 R&P and a .89 5th). Even if you swap in a .71 5th gear, the transition from 4th to 5th might make it useless on the highway, unless you've got a TD. I only say this in the instance that you drive on a lot of hills and/or drive in mixed traffic. Shifting from 4th to 5th is a large change, and getting up to speed in 5th may take some time.
FF, FO, FN: These are a nice fit for the 1.6NA (3.89 R&P and .71 or .75 5th). Unfotunately (as some note), they won't fit into a MK2 or later. The gearing on these is really well-suited for both 1.6 NA and TD applications.
4K, 2H; These came on the 83-84 GTi (3.94 R&P and a .89 5th). Yeah, I was dumb enough to try it. HORRIBLE idea. This trans is even worse than the AWY if that's possible. You can't go over 55 in 5th. This means, 48 in 4th is about your max in terms of RPMs.
7A: If you can find one (RARE), this is the best way to go. 3.94 R&P, and .71 5th. A rare score. The best of both worlds. It feels like overdrive in all gears after 2nd gear. This was VW's "4+E" trans that came in the late 1983-84 Rabbit and Jetta (both gas and diesel). So, if you find a stock diesel from those years, check the code. Also, I've pulled a few 7A tranny's from 83-84 Jetta gassers.
AVX: A bit over-rated in my mind. the 4.25 R&P means quick acceleration. But the .75 5th means the engine is comfortable at about 65-68 MPH. If you can swap in a .71 5th, this might be a great setup, but still second fiddle to the 7A.
AOP, AGS, ACH: These came stock on the 1985-1989 Jetts/Golf in the US (3.94 R&P and a .75 5th). They are a very nice complement to the 1.6 NA. Absolutely no complaints here. Obviously, a .71 5th would make them better, and effectively, they'd be just like a 7A.
ASF, ACN: Nice until you have to accelerate in 1st, or backup. The R&P is so low (3.67), the car loses torque. It's a good fit for 1.6TD and 1.9 TD motors, but not so much any 1.6 NA. The top speed is great, but again, it's similar to the 4-speeds (see below) in that the torque is absent at higher RPMs. These transmissions are only recommended if you spend 80% or more of your time on the highway and/or you've got a TD.
4-Speeds: There are a few. I haven't memorized the codes, because they all pretty much suck, and it's not worth it. But, if it's got a 3.89 or 3.91 R&P and a .71 4th gear, then yes, they're great on the highway, provided you're not climbing any hills, or have to accelerate up one. If you have one of these trans and are considering a 5-speed swap: simply wait until you find a good deal on the right trans, since these are pretty darn good and not worth swaping out unless you get a REALLY good deal on an FF,FO, FN, 7A, AOP, AGS, ACH, etc, or your motor is really tired and can't push enough torque to acclerate to 65-80 on the highway.
Any 4-speed that came stock on a Rabbit Diesel Pickup (not all the codes appear in the sciroccor.org/gears page) is gonna suck, so don't waste your time. Nearly all had 3.91 or 3.89 Ring and Pinions, and .89 4th gear. This was done for the 'power' aspect that trucks should have. Acceleration to 60 MPH is nice, but you're screamin at 70 MPH.
I guess the bottom line on the 4-speed is: nice at top speed in 4th, but getting there can blow (unless your 4-speed trans is from a Pickup). If your 1.6NA is still in good shape (compression and IP/injectors) and you can push it, then leave it alone and keep the 4-speed.
Bottom line: not all 5-speed swaps are in your best interests. For your application (original Poster), I'd stay with the FF. Down the road, if you find you want to lower the RPMs, then go with an ACN or and ASF (dime a dozen at most Pick-Your-Part J-yards). With a TD, the 4-speed will pretty much blow, and can't compete with the .71 5th and 3.89 R&P.
Just my $0.02
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hell yeah im in the middle of a gas -> diesel swap.. going N/a tho :P
i will be using the AWY that came with the engine.. while i have the 4K that came outta my car rebuilt and beefed up for when i go TD :)
seriously though.. a TD with a close ratio.. you will be one of the quickest cars in town if you wish to be :P be able to really take advantage of that low end grunt.
Bad idea here. If grunt is what you want, I'd say try to find an AVX and swap in a .71 5th. That will give you plenty of grunt around town, and an overdrive 5th on the highway. The 4.25 R&P really keeps power at the pedal.
The AWY and the 4K are essentially the same trans, and you'll be out of gears by the time you hit 55-60 MPH. That's not a good idea for motor longevity.
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After reading the last two posts, I feel very fortunate that I have both the FF code and the ACH code trannies for both my Mk1 Caddy and Mk2 Jetta. And thanks for not getting pissed that I listed this under “IDI” and not under “upgrades non engine related”, but the engine for the caddy is being upgraded to a TD and will be coupled with the tranny in question, so I hope I wasn’t totally in the wrong.
I wont get rid of the GP. I think I will use the tired NA and the garbage 4 speed and put them in my beat up, rusted out Mk1 Jetta for an off road, beater, let’s go fishing vehicle. Maybe cut off the roof and windshield, weld in a roll bar, remove the doors….
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Ya exactly!
I was amazed at the shi*tyness of the AWY that was in my car originally.
No wonder it puked oil out the valve cover on the first drive, poor thing was probably turning 5000 rpm :shock:
I really like my ACN but would like a tad lower around town gearing. Guess its a good thing 90+% of my driving is freeway.
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Amen!
My ’85 parts Jetta came with an AGB… Same as the 4K and 2H code, which may explain the good deal I got for the TD Jetta?($100!) The original owner said he felt he always needed to shift. I now see why. I wouldn’t want to drive this POS on the freeway for fear of the thing exploding. The output shaft on this tranny is about 0.100” more than others I have measured. Just wondering why….
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http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/webpics/02Aswap.pdf
I want to do this someday...maybe you can tell me how it goes :D
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http://www.ryanrupp.com/album/webpics/02Aswap.pdf
I want to do this someday...maybe you can tell me how it goes :D
Linky no workie.. :(
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Dang!
That was the link that showed pretty much a step by step install of an 02A six speed manual swap into a much older chasis. I don't have anyother link to it. Maybe in a couple years I will do it anyway and show it then :lol:
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Bad idea here. If grunt is what you want, I'd say try to find an AVX and swap in a .71 5th. That will give you plenty of grunt around town, and an overdrive 5th on the highway. The 4.25 R&P really keeps power at the pedal.
The AWY and the 4K are essentially the same trans, and you'll be out of gears by the time you hit 55-60 MPH. That's not a good idea for motor longevity.
with the 4K at 60-65 Mph the engine will sit at a very comfortable 3100-3350 RPM.. and thats before my plans to swap a .75 in to it..
4K-> 3.94 3.45 2.12 1.44 1.13 0.89
I will be able to use each bit of all the four gears around town and even cruise around in 5th. Sure the AVX would be much better for the REAL grunt.
AVX-> 4.25 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.75
This trans.. at the same speed only lowers the rpm 300.. and in all the other gears the difference in speeds between the two trans (AVX and 4K) is next to none (+- 4-5). Not to mention i've never heard of anyone using an AVX lol..
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with the 4K at 60-65 Mph the engine will sit at a very comfortable 3100-3350 RPM.. and thats before my plans to swap a .75 in to it..
4K-> 3.94 3.45 2.12 1.44 1.13 0.89
I will be able to use each bit of all the four gears around town and even cruise around in 5th. Sure the AVX would be much better for the REAL grunt.
AVX-> 4.25 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.75
This trans.. at the same speed only lowers the rpm 300.. and in all the other gears the difference in speeds between the two trans (AVX and 4K) is next to none (+- 4-5). Not to mention i've never heard of anyone using an AVX lol..
True about the RPMS difference, but 3300 is not very 'comfortable' for a motor with a 4500 max RPM.You're still in the power band, looking for another gear at 3300 RPMS. 300 RPMs is a big difference when you're talking about winding out at 57 MPH vs. 65 MPH. It's all relative, I understand. I don't need a tach to tell me that my motor is straining and killing my MPG. So, when I hit 55 and the motor is screaming with a 4k/2h, I'm not really gonna push the envelope to see how long my car can withstand that kind of torture.
One of my recent cars was a 1991 Jetta Coupe with an AWY. I drove it from CT to TN. I never went past 65 MPH, cos' the motor was begging for mercy.
As for the .75 swap: yes, you'll be able to bang thru the gears around town, but look at the 4th to 5th change when you compare the AVX to the 4k. It would almost be like shifting from 3rd to 5th in the AVX, if you were to put a .75 in your 4K.
It's all about what you want out of your car. If you want to roast Ricers with fart cans, then put on the AWY or the 4K and get 36-39 MPG. If you swap in the .75 and do a lot of highway drving, then you'll improve that number.
If you want to drive like most 'normal' people, and get 45-55 MPG, then go with the 'good' transmissions (AOP, AGS, ACH, 7A). If you think you can have the best of both worlds, then try the .71 or .75 5th swap on a low-geared trans.
I'm not preachin', just giving my own real-world experience. Obviously, if you have a 1.6NA, the ideal would be a 4k/AWY with a 6th gear. Not all can afford that luxury, or are willing to swap in an 02A just for a 1.6NA, so we're left with what was produced. Might as well make the best of a less-than-ideal situation.
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FF, FO, FN: These are a nice fit for the 1.6NA (3.89 R&P and .71 or .75 5th). Unfotunately (as some note), they won't fit into a MK2 or later. The gearing on these is really well-suited for both 1.6 NA and TD applications.
Why can't you put an FF in a MK2 car? What have people said about that?
I have a new project 85 Golf with the ACH and I want to put in the FF from my 81 rabbit...or would it be better to take the .71 fifth from the FF and put it on the ACH for the 7A 'CLONE'?
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The FF has a different rear mount. There are no boss's for the mk2 rear mount to attach to.
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If you want to use a FF like I am, you could make your own mounts like I am.
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If you want to use a FF like I am, you could make your own mounts like I am.
I almost did that then I discovered there are 2 different FF's and I wasn't sure which one I had so I did the ACN instead.
I still haven't looked to confirm which one I actually have. Maybe tonight.
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I almost did that then I discovered there are 2 different FF's and I wasn't sure which one I had so I did the ACN instead.
I still haven't looked to confirm which one I actually have. Maybe tonight.
What ? 2 different FF's ? Interesting. Mine has the differential mount facing the passenger side - it is bolted to the housing with 2 studs. If it wasn't snowing last night and rain/snow tonight, I've have photos already...
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FN, FF, FH (most to 7/80) .76 5th gear
FN, FF, FH, FJ (most from '81) .71 5th gear
Both have the same R&P
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FN, FF, FH (most to 7/80) .76 5th gear
FN, FF, FH, FJ (most from '81) .71 5th gear
Both have the same R&P
I remember reading that now.... thanks ! I don't know what year my tranny is - the engine is an 82.5 so maybe I have the taller overdrive.
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I'm hoping mine is the taller one so I can take the 5th .71 out and toss it in my AWY.
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I'm not preachin', just giving my own real-world experience. Obviously, if you have a 1.6NA, the ideal would be a 4k/AWY with a 6th gear. Not all can afford that luxury, or are willing to swap in an 02A just for a 1.6NA, so we're left with what was produced. Might as well make the best of a less-than-ideal situation.
Yes ideally the best would be a 4K with a 6th gear :P I didn't mean to sound offended or lippy but you are right i am making the best of a less than ideal situation. I wish to maintain the quickness around town and with the .75 or .71 that jump from 4th to 5th gear will be a little sacrifice to pay for being able to have the best of both worlds.
Also for now (before the 5th gear swap) at around 3050-3150 rpm, 60-65 mph is just fine for me highway wise.. AND i will still be able to use 5th around town :P
If im swapping in an N/a im expecting to be a little slower.. besides why do i need a reason to speed? if the car won't go that fast i will never get a ticket.. lol
all about the mindset :P Maybe one day.. i will have one of the 'good' trans mated to a TD for optimum performance :P