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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: gunrtd on October 27, 2008, 06:39:59 pm
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my 1995 1.9L TD is having some major issues. taking for ever to start in the am (10-15min!!). Tons of blue smoke, and will not stay running once started unless the cold start valve is engauged. (even when hot)
I am trying to find injectors, could I use the 1.6L TD or are they the wrong calibration?? Am I on the right path? Car has 75K kms.
Can't source any injectors on Vancouver Island. Any ideas? I wanted to replace rather than rebuild cause I need the car daily and can't afford the down time.
Was running great, then this BS all of a sudden.
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Check the crank pulley to make sure it isn't wobbling. It sounds like your timing is slowly sliding into oblivion
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Sounds more like glow plugs than injectors... Especially the fact the symptoms started suddenly (coincidentally right around the time of year when it gets colder!!)
Definitely check the timing too!
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yeh 15 mins of cranking sounds like none of he gps are working...(how does it crank for 15 minutes? thats nuts. My battery would die in less than 5)
the blue smoke means oil, im sure you knew that. common places for oil to get into the combustion areas i've noticed on the forum is at the turbo and the rings.
Rings could also contribute heavily to your starting problems.
check the level to see how much oil you're burning?
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doesn't really burn any oil, this is only on start up. I got it running and undid the injector lines one by one. The problem seems to be cylinder number one. Once it's on the highway it seems pretty good.
The GP's look new, any way to test them?
I work in marine, on marine diesels you hit the GPs for like 30 secs and then they just go. These plugs seem to only be on for a couple secs - is that the norm, or is the relay NFG?
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The blue smoke isn't necessarily oil - it can be (and in this case almost certainly is) unburned diesel fuel.
When you say "these plugs seem to only be on for a couple secs" do you mean the light on the dash, or you only see voltage at the plugs for a few seconds? The light just means the relay says it wants to turn the plugs on, it doesn't mean there's actually any voltage at the plugs. Furthermore, the light goes out when the relay considers the car "ready to start", it doesn't actually mean the glow plugs are turned off yet.
Check for voltage at the actual glow plugs with a multimeter or test light. If you disconnect the temp sender wire they should stay on for a loooooong time. If you're not seeing any voltage at the glow plugs then I'd check in this order:
- Big 50A fuse on the firewall
- Glow plug relay itself
- Wiring (unless you've previously had a wiring harness fire / short or something, then start here!)
If you actually want to test a GP you can pull it then connect it to your battery directly with some leads. It'll get red hot REAL FAST if it's good. You can also check the resistance across the plug, but you have to disconnect the bus bar and everything first anyhow.
As far as the injectors go, can you be more specific? Do you mean the car starts better with injector #1 out of service, or the smoke goes away?
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It's very unlikely that the rings are bad after 75k km. Does it do it only when cold or hot starts as well? The glow plug light only indicates the car is ready to start. It doesn't really relate to when the plugs are on. If you have a multimeter you can measure the glow plug itself for resistance. If there is none it needs to be replaced.
Did you check the crank for wobble? Does it sound any different than usual? Does it lack power? How has the fuel economy been? If you have heat shields for the injectors you could swap a couple around. If you move #1 and the problem follows it's a safe bet the injector is at fault. If it stays you are likely to have an issue at that cylinder.
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I'll check those plugs for voltage.
With number 1 off, the smoke subsides.
Crank pulley is true and the bolt is tight.
Fuel economy has dropped this past tank.
Anyone know of a source for injectors in western Canada?
Still waiting for the tools I bought to come so I can check the IP timing.
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Does the smoke go away one the engine is warmed up?
I haven't found anywhere that has injectors over this side yet. They can be rebuilt though - I know of a place in Langley that does them, but I've never been there myself. They apparently put the 1.6TD in to my Jetta all the while telling the owner at the time it was the same as the 1.9 AAZ they pulled out, but that could be previous owner BS too...
Auto Parts Online Canada claims to have 1.9 AAZ injectors... autopartsonlinecanada.com (http://parts.autopartsonlinecanada.com/parts/apocanada/wizard.jsp?year=1993&make=VW&model=JET-D-004&category=D&part=Diesel+Injector) - kind of pricey though! I also can only recommend them so much - I got my timing belt from them OK (and very quickly) but I'd ordered some brake rotors at the same time which never showed. I contacted them about it a week later (thinking they might get shipped separately) to be told that no, they hadn't been shipped and they'd give me a credit. I told them I'd rather have the rotors, then got nothing back from them whatsoever for another week. Asked again, this time saying I'd be talking to my credit card company if they hadn't responded by the end of the month. They came through with my refund then, but refunded the wrong amount (a couple bucks more than they should have so I'm not complaining, but it indicates they don't know what's going on!) YMMV...
Too bad you don't have a spare set, you could always send them off to Giles...
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I'd be less surprised if the car actually has 375xxxkms instead of 75000 kms on it. Does your cluster say total?
You should check the crank to cam timing. You don't need any specail tools to do it.
As a test, take a 8 gauge wire and connect it to one end of the glowplugs, and the other end to the + terminal on the battery. Go try and start the car. From the time you hook it up, give yourself 30 seconds before turning the key. If it starts better, bad wiring, fuses or relays. If it's the same, glowplugs, timing, injectors or compression. Or a combination of things. You can leave the car running and unhook the cable. I think the glowplugs are on for up to 2 minutes on the AAZ so you aren't going to damage them.
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As a test, take a 8 gauge wire and connect it to one end of the glowplugs, and the other end to the + terminal on the battery. Go try and start the car. From the time you hook it up, give yourself 30 seconds before turning the key. If it starts better, bad wiring, fuses or relays. If it's the same, glowplugs, timing, injectors or compression. Or a combination of things. You can leave the car running and unhook the cable. I think the glowplugs are on for up to 2 minutes on the AAZ so you aren't going to damage them.
Smart!!
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It's very unlikely that the rings are bad after 75k km.
Unless the oil was never changed. It doesn't have the factory oil filter, does it? US cars have a specially marked filter (Ford uses a green dot on the outside) at the factory so the dealer can see why an engine fails when the oil has never been changed.
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I would still say that the timing is off either belt or pump timing.The crank pully doesn't always have to wobble to indicate that there is a problem.I would pull the crank sproket off for inspection as it is usually a problem.
Burn is right it probaby has 375,000 kms on it.
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it could be possible that the timing belt is not tight enough and has skipped a tooth or 2.
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There is a wealth of knowledge here! I appreciate everyones comments.
It is 75K, although I have no idea how the car was kept - paint is poor but interior excellent, I can only hope they were good to the little engine.
I will check the timing are there marks on the pulley, or does the valve cover need to be off?
I checked the voltage at the GP and it only registered at 9V. Is there an internal resistor, or are these supposted to be 12V? Feeling like its time for an external relay.
I built a tool to remove the injectors and am trying my hand at cleaning those up.
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Here's some pictures re: checking the timing.. yup the valve cover needs to come off to do the full meal timing deal:
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
Measuring 9V at the glow plugs means (a) they are probably OK and drawing lots of current and (b) you're losing at least 3V along the way due to resistance at various terminals, the big grounds, etc. Might make sense to clean the battery terminals, the big grounds to the chassis and transmission, and the glow plug relay and socket.... the more voltage you can deliver to the plugs the better !!
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Here is a timing proceedure by none other then Mr Vince
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
Well I see he wastes no time tooting his own horn, looks like I`m 30 seconds too slow
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looks like I`m 30 seconds too slow
...'cause I have a turbo, and you on the other hand are allergic to them.. :wink:
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Bet I can do a headgasket twice as fast as you :P
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not sure if this will help but what I expirienced this past week and took my time fixing some things before I figured it out.
my TDI was starting a little harder lately and smoking very badly on start up and pretty bad all the time unless everything was really warmed up well and I was getting on it a little. the smoke was a blueish white and I thought for sure my turbo seals were going bad except that I wasnt using any oil. I also had an exhast leak (pre turbo) so I had to take everything apart anyway. when I took my turbo apart I found that the seals were good (no signs of oil leaking) but my variable gate lever exipited a lot of wear that was keeping the turbo from going to quick spool up position also while hanging up and keeping the vanes in a partially closed position longer. I welded up a tab on the lever to get everything back to what it should have been. fixed my leak and put everything back together. started it up and same thing. when I had my manifolds off I noticed my exhaust ports 3 and 4 were almost wet so I figured my injectors were hanging up. pulled my injectors and they were all coked up pretty bad (I wont get into why) cleaned everything up and put them back in and same thing when I started it up only this time when I hit the throttle it seamed to build up to much exhaust back pressure and nock more than normal and want to stall out. then I opened up my variable gate and everything smoothed out perfectly. the set screw for the lever had worn itself into the lever and was binding up in a quick spool position.
moral of the story, maybe you have something restricting your exhaust.
now Mine runs as if it were new and I am falling in love all over again.
later
jkeiffer
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9V sounds about right - it means all 4 glow plugs are probably drawing power. Due to the huge amount of current they draw, the voltage drops down quite a bit. It's not a sure thing (there's plenty of other reasons for a 4V drop other than "things are fine" but it's "normal")...
A separate relay is definitely a good idea. A few people have used a cheap starter solenoid (Ford or from a garden tractor, you name it) - easily available and cheap!
I'd definitely check timing next. I'm guessing you don't have any of the timing tools for a VW diesel - to do it the "factory" way you need a dial gauge with the right adapter and a cam lock.
You can do it just fine without though - on your transmission there's a plug you can remove to see the flywheel. At TDC there's a diamond shaped mark.
If you pull your valve cover you'll see a flat mark cut in to the end of the cam. When the TDC mark is centered in the inspection hole the flat mark cut in to the end of the cam should be perfectly parallel to the top of the head.
If the cam is lined up fine then you can go on to the injection pump timing (although you really need to figure out why the timing got out in the first place - good chance your timing belt isn't too happy and you just got lucky!) I personally set my timing by ear - if you advance it too much (move the top of the pump towards the head) it'll start sounding "rattly" like a Powerstroke. Too far retarded and it'll start running really badly. Basically you want it as advanced as possible without it knocking too much. But don't take my word for it, please please please read the many timing related posts and form your own opinion! The "book" way to do your timing involves measuring the actual position of the plunger inside the pump - this is great for a brand new pump with brand new injectors on an otherwise perfect engine but doesn't have all that much to do with an old engine...
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Little car is getting better. I rebuilt the worst two injectors, will do the other this weekend. Also retarded the IP timing a touch (just by ear). Still waiting the parts I bought off EBay to get here so I can set the timing properly. Figure I'll throw in a new belt at the same time. And I will put in a solenoid for the GP too.
But for now it starts and runs, and the smoke is barely noticeable.
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Glad to hear!
Once all 4 injectors are in the same condition it'll probably smooth out a bit too... I put new injectors in mine a while back and had one that wouldn't come out (or rather I wasn't about to crack my head to MAKE it come out!) - it definitely ran better with 3 new ones but now that #4 is done it's amazing how much more "consistent" the engine is.
I think the most useful thing you get from the proper timing tools is knowing your cam alignment is correct, and having an actual number for your IP timing so you can reproduce it if you ever have to take the pump off for some reason. Seems like every engine has its own "sweet spot" timing wise which may or may not be anywhere close to the book value.
My car has a 1.6TD in a body that should have a 1.9TD, and the IP has been replaced. Who knows if the IP that the previous owner put on was the exact same one as the 1.6TD that's in the car was supposed to have, or if it's a 1.9TD pump, or anything really. When I got it there was a LOT of smoke - got pulled over within 24 hours of buying the car. D'oh! My pump still had orange paint over all the adjustments from the pump rebuilder meaning it should have been "perfect" but it wasn't even close! Tells me the book value for timing probably wouldn't be right for my engine either...
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Well I tore into the little car today. When I bought the car about 6 weeks ago the owner gave me a reciept indicating he had just had the timing belt done a week prior.
Once everything was apart it was clear everything was wrong! Cam timing was off from TDC and even further off was the IP!!
I still don't have the tools I bought off Ebay to time the pump, but I got everything close. Fixed my coolant leak too, and found the upper rad hose housing was missing the o ring! It had some silicone smeared all around it!
Anyways with it all back together I hit the key - no cold start lever, no GP, and away she went with no smoke!! I can't believe how quiet it is, and after a little drive, I can't believe how much go it has now.
Having never owned a diesel car, I figured they were just dogs - My mind is changed now! Can't wait to fine tune the IP timing. Then some pump mods I've read about!!
I'm a marine mechanic and I've never taken my vehicles anywhere - glad I didn't give up on this one (I was getting close).
Still don't know how it was even running?!?
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Are you just throwing new nozzles in your injectors without pop testing both opening pressures?
From the sets I have done at work, typically the primary opening pressure is too low and the secondary ends up too high. They usually don't wear evenly either so they will be out of balance.
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No I only cleaned and put them back together, they were pretty gummed up. I'll try and find some new nozzles and then send them out to get balanced. I know theres more to the injectors than what I have done.
Any one have plans for building a test
For now I'm happy, it's running awesome
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Seriously you need to still remove the crank sprocket to check the keyway for wear. There has to be a reason why the engine just started running poorly--timing doesn't change by itself. These engines are notorious for crankshaft sprocket keyway failures, and the first symptoms are often those of retarded timing. Get yourself a Bentley manual too, it will help a lot.