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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: BlackTieTD on June 07, 2004, 11:56:19 am
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my clutch is slippy. engine is a 1990 1.6l TD MF code.
gearbox is a long one, i believe an FF, it was in the car when i bought it bolted it a 1.5l NA, we used the clutch that was in the car when i bought it as well.
so now i'm going to replace my clutch.. what is my best bet? will the stock 1.6l TD clutch and pressure plate hold upwards of 200ft/Ibs? 180ft/Ibs or there abouts?
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There was a thread on the old forum I wanted to post a link to about when I redid my clutch with a 4-puck and lightned flywheel. At the same time I also added A peloquin LSD and changed transmission ratios. But I don't see the old forum being up right now! :shock:
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are there any factory solutions? just the daily driver, i'm saving the aftermarket parts budget for the 'weekend cars' :? :lol:
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I don't know what the stock clutch was in your case... 200mm or 210mm? Maybe a 210mm with stock friction surface and a heavy (16v) pressure plate would do the trick, but I dunno. You'd also get a stiffer clutch pedal. A lightened flywheel is very streetable and nice upgrade IMO - even for a daily driver by the way!
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Jake
Does a lightened flywheel increase vibration?
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No, no increase in idle vibration at all! Only downside is that you will have to re-train your clutching foot a bit (a little more gas / a little less clutch during launching.) And in return, the engine response will be much more lively! :)
But don't ask about how hard solid-center, 4-puck racing clutches are on motor mounts. Or how bad engine vibrations get (both idle and cruising) with stiff motor mounts. :o It's a great combo with a limited slip diff if you like 2-wheeled burnouts though! :shock: On the way to an autocross yesterday morning, it was damp out and I was on high-treadwear street tires (not much traction) but anyway I was doing 2-wheeled burnouts shifting into 4th gear! I was amazed, and couldn't wipe an ear to ear grin off my face. Doing 2-wheeled burnouts successively with every shift. (Not that I usually drive like a maniac like that on the street... that is what autocross racing is for! I just don't know what came over me. :lol: )
Edit - by the way, I remember with a stock heavy 200mm flywheel, stock 1.6lTD clutch and taller transmission, I could barely manage it to make a 1-wheeled burnout!
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so Jake let me get this clear,
I remember from the old site I can lighten the flywheel from 12 down to 8 lbs to be conservative or even 6 lbs if I want to be daring.
them I use the 200mm 16v pressure plate and disc.
I'm getting ready to take the turbo down for a much needed maintenance period.
rings
exhaust
clutch
and then a whole lot of personal comfort repairs.
I have to get the new shop outfitted first
it all takes time and I'm burdened with making a living at the same time. oh well
ken
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For a street car, if you decide you don't want to spend a lot of money, and therefore go with a stock disc, I would recommend not worrying about shaving off max weight either, which makes finding an adequately lightened flywheel a lot easier. 8 pounds sounds like a reasonable target. Focusing on lighter might not be worth spending the time/money/worry on. I am running 7 pounds but I am racing my car and so I spend extra time fussing over little things like that. I've only ever heard of a 6 pound VW 020 tranny flywheel being used by one other racer and his Rabbit is the most prepared autocross racing Rabbit that I know of, it's trailered only. IE: if it were to fail, it wouldn't leave anyone stranded on the side of the road, etc.
I would say if you are willing to deal with a little stiffer clutch pedal, yeah the 16v 210mm pressure plate is also a good idea. I would say despite the pound or so weight penalty (edit: 2 pounds) of the larger pressure plate, go with a 210mm clutch disc and flywheel on a street application to get more wear area. It's just not worth sacrificing weight as much for a street application. I think most would be plenty happy with a 8# 210mm flywheel, 16v pressure plate, and 210mm clutch disc for a TD street application! If you want to make the clutch pedal stock-softness, only if you are not going to high-power engine mods and will take it easy on the launches, you could substitute in there the standard 8v 210mm pressure plate. All these parts are readily available from a number of sources for pretty cheap too. Good luck!
PS - now that the old forum is up and running again here is the link to the thread I was referring to previously: http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=40
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By the way, thinking more about the burnout story. It was actually my engine power that would come up when boost rose at WOT, that would cause the tires to slip! Yes that was even in 4th gear! Granted, the traction was a little meager with hard rubber and wet road. But I've never experienced that before. Maybe some of the front end weight reduction mods I've made recently contributed to that happening too.
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By the way, I have a stock, brand new german made 210mm flywheel sitting in my garage here. Ordered it but turned out I didn't need it... it's the early style version with the 2 7mm dowel pins, not the later A3 style version that has only the 1 8mm dowel pin. If it's of any use to one of you I would not refuse a reasonable offer! The stock 210mm flywheel is a lot lighter than the stock 200mm flywheel coming on our diesel Rabbits by the way! You could realize a significant rotating mass weight reduction by just bolting on the unmodified 210mm flywheel! I could measure it's weight if anyone's interested. I may have a stock 200mm flywheel I can get a comparative weight on too if there is any interest let me know.
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i'm definitely interested jake. clutch is slipping badly... just one more thing on the list of to-do's i never seem to get a handle on.
clutch and exhaust.. then brakes, wheel bearings, ball joints, suspension, and any bad bushings... on all 4 corners.
and thats just the list of the more 'major' things...
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I have a Sach Power Clutch and ligthen flywheel for my car. I paid big $$ for it when they first came out. If I was going to do it again I'd buy one from these guys..http://www.bsiracing.com/Products.asp?FormName=Search&FormAction=search&category_id=9
They seem fairly cheap and have lots of options
(http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/18482DSC01228-med.JPG)
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I've been having very good luck with my setup. 210 mm w/ lightened flywheel. 2L 16v pressure plate. Kevlar disc. Loads of holding power, easy start-offs in 1st gear. I can't make it slip. It'll hold a second gear burnout from a standstill without breaking a sweat!
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where'd you get the light flywheel and kevlar disc doc? cost? availability? hop on msn some time soon 8)
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my clutch is coming up too, so bottom line, for a street car, that i plan on around 150hp/200 torque max, i should get
-stock td clutch
-16v pressure plate
-8 pound flywheel
????
or should i go sachs sport clutch?
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Here are a few links from the old forum on clutches:
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=40
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=319
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=609
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=679
I think that should about cover it, as the topic has come up quite a few times in the past... (unless you have some other questions that haven't been covered, in which case, shoot!)
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Woo hoo! It seems that I have the best of all worlds... :shock: :D
Here is a photo of the flywheel from one of my spare VW GTI engines. The numbers read 29072 and 022 105 273. Note that it is 190mm from outer ring to outer ring. If I need to use a stock flywheel, at least I have the smallest one available.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~rps1976/Images/CSR/GTIFlywheel.jpg)
Jake, did you have a thread where you described how you had it lightened?
Thanks, Stan
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No...I'm happy because I have a small flywheel. A bigger clutch means a bigger flywheel, which means more rotational inertia, which means slower acceleration. These things are all bad from a racing perspective.
May not mean much to a guy looking for maximum fuel mileage... :D
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No...I'm happy because I have a small flywheel. A bigger clutch means a bigger flywheel, which means more rotational inertia, which means slower acceleration. These things are all bad from a racing perspective.
May not mean much to a guy looking for maximum fuel mileage... :D
although, wouldn't less rotational inertia translate to slightly better fuel mileage? might be negligable, but in theory?
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Ok, if I'm wrong someone correct me.
The flywheels for the 190mm and 210mm clutch have the same outside diameter right?
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Stan is right... for all-out racing, they use the smallest clutch and flywheel that you can get away with.
Here is the thread where I describe my setup:
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=40
I actually have a 200mm setup. But based on my research I actually heard some conflicting opinions on which setup would ultimately be lighter (190mm or 200mm) but for sure either are pounds lighter than a 210mm setup.
The OD of the flywheel is the starter engagement teeth, which is the same for all the clutch diameters. What changes is the OD of the clutch disc (smaller OD = slightly lighter clutch) and the OD of the pressure plate (smaller OD = significantly lighter pressure plate, by like 2 pounds or more going from 210mm to 200 or 190mm.) I have heard that the 190mm, 200mm, and 210mm flywheels should weigh about the same after they've all been lightened to about the max limits, but then again it depends on the skill of the machinist doing the lightening. Where the weighs gets saved by reducing clutch diameter is mainly in the pressure plate.
Here are some pictures of my setup taken from the thread mentioned above:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pd895043c7e9a53850ebb4a6e1948a216/fc85de63.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pc5e0999070da3544d30b03d6b40cbf7c/fc85de6b.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p9b9384907814606f4545719156639adc/fc85deb1.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid58/p600478bcd5175792bf08801f0a412724/fc645cc1.jpg)
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eurodrive clutches in burlington. they will lighten flywheels too, or make you an aluminum unit. I think the clutch disc was roughly double the price of a regular material unit, but they grip way better and last 3x longer.
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I have looked into, but never found an aluminum flywheel being actually made or sold for an 020 transmission. And the people I found who advertised it, never actually made one and when they looked into it further, they decided they couldn't/wouldn't do it. My impression is that it would take a really thick slab of aluminum, a lot of $, and wouldn't save much weight vs a properly lightened OEM cast iron unit, but I'd be very interested in hearing if someone's actually made one and how much it cost and weighs.
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so if i upgrade to a 16v clutch/pressure plate and a 8pound 16v flywheel instead of my 93 td stock setup, will i get less fuel milage? :?:
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just for grins an' giggles I took a scale out to the rabbit hutch and weighed all 3 of my clutchs, a 190, 200 (off my 1.6td) and :: a 210. all were complete as removed from their engines.......... they all weighed 23 pounds total .... so just where do I send a flywheel to get it lightened ???? and can they do it with out milling off the timing marks?? :?:
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Eurodrive had an experimental clutch a friend of mine was using. They put the friction material on the pressure plate and flywheel, and had a naked clutch disc. The idea was with a drastically lighter disc, shifting would occur much faster. This also used one of their 020 aluminum flywheels, which was 5 lbs (as I remember). I have an aluminum VR6 flywheel done by them, too. (haven't tried it yet)
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talked to a vw place that did my friends gti vr6 flywheel/clutch, and he said with diesels, lightening hte flywheel wil ltake away torque, he suggested putting a HEAVIER one in if anything, any thoughts? or is this a " :roll: "
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I lightened the flywheel by about 2 pounds when I did my clutch. All I can say is that I wish I had lightened it more. I love the quick revving. It also seems alot smoother, but I had the flywheel balanced after machining so it may just be better than stock. I'd recommend a lightened flywheel to anybody, there are no drawbacks that I can see.
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I recently purchased this clutch kit (http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=ACT%2EVW1%2DHDR6) from Virtual World Parts (http://www.parts4vws.com).
It may be more than you're looking for, but it needs to last me 25 hours of all-out road racing. And even though it's designed for an 8V GTi, Mike Potter at Virtual assured me that it'll go into any early Rabbit. The rules in my class prohibit lightened flywheels (they must be stock), but the clutch and pressure plate are open.
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talked to a vw place that did my friends gti vr6 flywheel/clutch, and he said with diesels, lightening hte flywheel wil ltake away torque, he suggested putting a HEAVIER one in if anything, any thoughts? or is this a " :roll: "
To put it politely, the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. A heavy flywheel has no place on a modern high-revving diesel, other than as an aid for drivers with poor manual tranny skills. Lighten that sucker as much as you can...you'll love it! :D
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wouldn't heavier give better fuel mileage though? but suck for accel big time?
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wouldn't heavier give better fuel mileage though? but suck for accel big time?
How would carrying around and accelerating extra weight improve the fuel economy? A heavy flywheel makes it a bit easier to launch the car and improves idle smoothness a bit, beyond that it is all negative. I cut 2-3lbs off my present flywheel and love it. When change my currently slipping clutch I will cut the flywheel down as much as is possible. I love my 1.9 with the light flywheel. There are no drawbacks that I can see.
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actually I've heard of buses with huge heavy flywheels for added fuel economy (helps more with stop and go traffic I would assume)
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<snip>
When change my currently slipping clutch I will cut the flywheel down as much as is possible. I love my 1.9 with the light flywheel. There are no drawbacks that I can see.
There is one potential issue with lightened flywheels. The flywheel smooths out the pulses from the power strokes. With a lighter flywheel, the crankshaft speed is more pulsed, especially at low RPM's. This puts some additional stress on the timing belt from the sudden acceleration/deceleration of the engine parts.
With a lighter flywheel, you'll want to check the timing belt more frequently. Look for cracks or wear at the base of the teeth. And you might want to shorten the timing belt change interval some with a lighter flywheel.
I'm not trying to scare you into not running a lighter flywheel. A lighter flywheel does help acceleration a bit. I run a lighter one on my diesel for that reason. I start checking my timing belt at 30,000 miles now, and I changed it at 45,000 miles just to play it safe.
Just be aware that the timing belt is under more stress with the lighter flywheel and don't drive it until the belt snaps.
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<snip>
When change my currently slipping clutch I will cut the flywheel down as much as is possible. I love my 1.9 with the light flywheel. There are no drawbacks that I can see.
There is one potential issue with lightened flywheels. The flywheel smooths out the pulses from the power strokes. With a lighter flywheel, the crankshaft speed is more pulsed, especially at low RPM's. This puts some additional stress on the timing belt from the sudden acceleration/deceleration of the engine parts.
With a lighter flywheel, you'll want to check the timing belt more frequently. Look for cracks or wear at the base of the teeth. And you might want to shorten the timing belt change interval some with a lighter flywheel.
I'm not trying to scare you into not running a lighter flywheel. A lighter flywheel does help acceleration a bit. I run a lighter one on my diesel for that reason. I start checking my timing belt at 30,000 miles now, and I changed it at 45,000 miles just to play it safe.
Just be aware that the timing belt is under more stress with the lighter flywheel and don't drive it until the belt snaps.
Wouldnt these increased fluctuations create more wear on the engine mountings?
Bugger it... :twisted: "Yes it would" :twisted: Also the torsional stress in the crank will increase. This is what the flywheel is for :lol: I have an ancient manuscript [well1940's]on the theory of damping to help allieviate this vibration that I could post.
Improved economy in buses ... :?: Isn't that from a gyroscope type effect from a freewheeling 'flywheel' that is 'tickled' by using electrically converted breaking force to speed it up and then energy taken back out to help accelerate again. :idea:
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Stan is right... for all-out racing, they use the smallest clutch and flywheel that you can get away with.
Here is the thread where I describe my setup:
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=40
I actually have a 200mm setup. But based on my research I actually heard some conflicting opinions on which setup would ultimately be lighter (190mm or 200mm) but for sure either are pounds lighter than a 210mm setup.
The OD of the flywheel is the starter engagement teeth, which is the same for all the clutch diameters. What changes is the OD of the clutch disc (smaller OD = slightly lighter clutch) and the OD of the pressure plate (smaller OD = significantly lighter pressure plate, by like 2 pounds or more going from 210mm to 200 or 190mm.) I have heard that the 190mm, 200mm, and 210mm flywheels should weigh about the same after they've all been lightened to about the max limits, but then again it depends on the skill of the machinist doing the lightening. Where the weighs gets saved by reducing clutch diameter is mainly in the pressure plate.
Here are some pictures of my setup taken from the thread mentioned above:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p9b9384907814606f4545719156639adc/fc85deb1.jpg)
any comments on such a clutch? is it usable in a daily driver?
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The links to the old forum aren't working for me.
Let me know if I remember correctly Jake.
You used a 200mm flywheel and the clutch disc is 190mm right?
I've heard some 210mm gasser flywheels have the wrong timing marks for a diesel. Did they use 210mm flywheels with any IDI diesels?
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Does anyone have any mileage numbers of before and after adding a lightened flywheel? And also of the claimed torque loss?
Heavy spinning objects require less energy to maintain a constant speed correct? Which would be why a heavier setup would be better for mileage on long highway hauls?
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Does anyone have any mileage numbers of before and after adding a lightened flywheel? And also of the claimed torque loss?
I didn't notice any difference in mileage before and after the light flywheel, and certainly no loss of torque. Less flywheel inertia makes the car a bit easier to stall on inclines and such but that isn't the same thing as a loss of torque.
Heavy spinning objects require less energy to maintain a constant speed correct?
Incorrect. Heavy spinning objects tend to stay spinning longer when power is removed, but they require the same power to maintain a given speed, and require more power to accelerate. I would guess that a car with a lightened flywheel would be marginally better on fuel, probably not enough to measure though.
And to respond to an earlier post reqarding torque fluctuations and the resultant shortening of timing component life, I can assure you that the timing belt will go the full distance (100000km) with a moderately lightened flywheel, mines done it twice. I also just finished inspecting the stock crank pulley/crank during my most recent timing belt change on my 300000km 1.9TD and it seems none the worse for the light flywheel. Still in excellent condition. I replaced the pulley and the bolt and carried on.
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my clutch is slippy. engine is a 1990 1.6l TD MF code.
so now i'm going to replace my clutch.. what is my best bet? will the stock 1.6l TD clutch and pressure plate hold upwards of 200ft/Ibs? 180ft/Ibs or there abouts?
FWIW, I use a 210mm ACT organic disc with a VW 16V pressure plate and a lightweight flywheel (8.5 lbs.) on my 85 1.8 turbo gasser. I haven't dynoed the setup, but it in the wintertime it makes enough power to produce wheelspin at any speed through 3rd gear (up to about 90 MPH, since I use a tall AGS tranny.) That's running about 18 PSI, from 3500-7000 RPM.
Even with all that, it doesn't slip. Wonderfully light pedal, too!
I've tried the 6-puck soild ACT disc, and used an ACT pressure plate (3 straps per perch) with the 6-puck and the organic disc, but it was all just overkill. The heavy PP just broke cables, pedal assemblies and release hardware before breaking itself. After all that, I just went with my current setup, and all has been well.
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im runnin a 210mm clutchnet "red" setup
it has a 4 puck ceramic sprung disc
if your guy's idi's cant hold that you are making way more power than my tdi-m
its engagement is smooth,and im runnin a lightened flywheel too
i lightened mine at work,took all that weight off down to the starter ring gear
i drive mine daily
it was like 365 us $
i know the reciept said 377 shipped price on it
it had double straps,or double layers for the parts that hold the pressure plate together
i blew up a centerforce,they are junk,and they have single layer straps
heres a link to my blown up clutch
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2719718
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What size flywheel comes stock on a 1985 1.6L TD? If I went to the mentioned 210mm setup with a 16v pressure plate and clutch disc, is it all direct bolt up or does anything have to be changed? Also, is it the 1.8 or 2.0L 16v? Oh, one last question - when you say you lighten it to 8lbs, is that taking 8lbs off of it or it it lightening it to a final weight of 8 lbs? Thanks guys, this info will really help as my clutch is sliping terribly too.
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What size flywheel comes stock on a 1985 1.6L TD? If I went to the mentioned 210mm setup with a 16v pressure plate and clutch disc, is it all direct bolt up or does anything have to be changed? Also, is it the 1.8 or 2.0L 16v? Oh, one last question - when you say you lighten it to 8lbs, is that taking 8lbs off of it or it it lightening it to a final weight of 8 lbs? Thanks guys, this info will really help as my clutch is sliping terribly too.
um,the stock td is a 200 mm
you will need to remark the tdc mark on the new flywheel(210),or you are screwed when you change your timing belt.this is critical
the current tdc mark on 210's isnt correct,you must find tdc,and remark it
mine weighs like 6-7 pounds after lightening it
a 2.0 or 1.8 16v p.p. should be the same
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Modding an Eco diesel and I'm concerned about using the stock 200 mm. I know the 16V 210 mm flywheel will work, but the friction disk spline is larger than used on my diesel trans. So my questions are, is an 8V friction disk 210 mm and small spline. And, is there a noticable difference in holding power between the 200 mm and 210 mm clutches. Thank you.
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i dunno,cause i never bothered upgrading a 200 mm clutch to be able to compare holding power to a 210
yea you need a 210 8v disc,a 210 mm flywheel(not nessarily from a 16v )
and a 16v pressure plate
yea a 210 8v is a small spline
get a flywheel from an "83 84 gti"
get a disc for an "83-84 gti)
get a 16v pressure plate
you will be golden,just re mark the flywheel timing mark
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I think the 210mm, 16V flywheels have 1 pin and the 210mm, 8V flywheels have 2 pins.
How can you get an 8V (210mm) flywheel to bolt onto a 16V pressure plate with this difference?
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when put a "real" 16v pressure plate in my old 83 gti,i didnt have a problem
but i think the 16v press.plate had an extra notch,cause somehow i couldnt read my timing marks anymore,and i seemed to be 90 deg. off
make sure ya got the crank on or near the tdc mark before ya remove the old one
ive never had a problem with other "16v" press. plates ive used with my 8v flywheels,just the issue of making a new timing mark,the orig one is about an inch off
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when put a "real" 16v pressure plate in my old 83 gti,i didnt have a problem
but i think the 16v press.plate had an extra notch,cause somehow i couldnt read my timing marks anymore,and i seemed to be 90 deg. off
make sure ya got the crank on or near the tdc mark before ya remove the old one
ive never had a problem with other "16v" press. plates ive used with my 8v flywheels,just the issue of making a new timing mark,the orig one is about an inch off
Installed a new head gasket. Indicated in TDC, then put matching marks on the crank sprocket and front seal housing. I'll align those, install the clutch and trans, then mark the flywheel.
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you should really use a piston stop to accurately locate tdc
ask therabbittree how he knows :wink:
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you should really use a piston stop to accurately locate tdc
ask therabbittree how he knows :wink:
Piston stop? I had the cylinder off and used a 0.001 in. dial indicator. Came up on TDC both directions to verify location. One tooth is a mile off TDC. With the pump locked in and on my mark, I can't see how I can screw up the timing. But will triple check it using trans/flywheel mark on diesel flywheel before installing the 16V clutch.
What happened to therabbittree's motor? :shock:
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what im sayin is,you have to make a new mark on a 210 flywheel,because the tdc mark on the 210 is not in the same spot as it was on the 200 mm,have fun doing a timing belt down the road,if you go by the orig tdc mark on the 210
when i converted to a 210,and i put the engine back in my car,i couldnt figure out why i couldnt get it timed right
i was scratchin my head for a few days,then i jammed some wire down the #1 injector hole to make a hillfolk piston stop,thats when i found the tdc mark was like an inch off,i re marked it,and everything was fine
it was a major pita too,being in the car with the trans installed
the next conversion to a 210 that i did,and i found that tdc mark not correct,but this time i was smart,i didnt have the trans back on yet and i made this tool
it worked great along with some half baked piston stop you can make to fit thru the prechamber hole
the one in the pic is for my tdi,but i used the tranny chunk though
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3801/hpim02183wd.jpg)