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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: mufflerbearing on April 10, 2008, 04:41:58 pm
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without special tool vw210, how far do i tension the belt? is there a certian amount it should deflect or twist between the cam and pump sprockets?
thanks!
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I think its just shy of 90 degrees, but you should check against a manual.
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manual has no spec for twisting the belt, only for using vw210. i have it just shy of 90* right now, but i want to double (and tripple) check before i start it.
thanks!
-j
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my haynes manual says 90 degrees is the approved spec, but I like just shy of that for good measure.
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I was wondering the same thing. The manual only gives the vw210 measurement for my 79 1.5l but the different motors give the twist way to do it.
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It really does not need to be tight, just "not loose". I have done Tbelts on older 1.6's that were so loose they were slapping the underside of the timing belt cover and the car ran fine otherwise, belt never slipped.
If you pull up and down on the belt while you fiddle with teh tensioner wrench you can get a decent feel for how much tension you are putting on the belt, with a good twist you should be able to get it to go 90* as others have said.
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Andrew have you ever used or know someone who has used this harbor freight belt tool?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=96557
Is it supposed to be equivalent to the VW210?
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For the diesels, I say 45 degrees. Thats what Bentley recommends for the 16v, and the belt is the same width. The 90 degrees only applies to 8v motors.
I have the tool, and when I'm done, it finishes at about 45-55 degrees. Before I had the tool, I'd do the same (45-55). I wouldn't go 90. That seems a bit excessive.
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Too loose and it can jump time.
After wrenching on my friends that was so loose it was hitting the underside of the T-belt cover (ding ding ding ding at a rate of a couple dings a second) I can say it would have to be so insanely loose to actually skip a tooth. The belt moved up and down about 1/2", yea, a 1/2" of slack :shock:
His was a caddy that had sat for 10 years, then he put a few thousand miles on it, and then I moved back to town and checked it out for him. The T-belt was so old/worn/rotten that I tore it only using my thumbs and forefingers, it tore like damp cardboard, really. It really opened my eyes as to how weak a T-belt can be and still work fine, not that I would ever intentionally let one go that far, but I would not have expected a belt in that condition could keep an engine together.
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the way i have it now, if i really reef on it i can get it close to 90. seems tight enough to be to keep the belt from skipping.
im just a little paranoid of having it skip a tooth, or two... heres what happened when the previous owner didn't tighten the belt enough:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/skinneej/dieselady/DSCN0820d.jpg)
thanks for all the replies!
-j
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Yeah I'm not sure why everyone is saying to twist the belt 90 deg.......that is incorrect according to the Bentley manual. I understand the Haynes manual might say something different, but me personally there's only one place for the Haynes manual and thats in the trash.
Quote from Bentley:
"An appropriate measure of belt tension can be made without a tension gauge by twisting the belt by hand. At the center between the injection pump sprocket and the camshaft sprocket, if the belt can be twisted 45 deg, but no further, it is tensioned correctly."
Now I know not everything in these manuals can be taken for absolute literal, and Andrew makes good point about this tension being a bit subjective, depending on if you are Arnold Schwarznegger or Pee Wee Herman, so you have to use your best judgement.
I just wanted to make sure we're getting the right info out here.
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how much force should you use to twist the belt? surly if you wer strong enough or used mole grippers you could twist any belt 90deg dont meen to sound argumentative but what my sister cud twist 45 i cud probly turn 90, my mate does engine conversions he alway just makes sure it cant twist more than 90, but its not an exact science
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Mole grippers......hehehe :D I like that!!
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In my experience, you'll know it when the belt doesn't want to turn past 45 deg. Its not like you're trying to force the doggone thing all the way around. You're just "gingerly" twisting the belt to 45 deg. Its hard to explain exactly. If done right, your sister could probably twist it to the same 45 deg as you could......not sayin' you're a sissy or anything!!! :lol:
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In my experience, you'll know it when the belt doesn't want to turn past 45 deg. Its not like you're trying to force the doggone thing all the way around. You're just "gingerly" twisting the belt to 45 deg. Its hard to explain exactly. If done right, your sister could probably twist it to the same 45 deg as you could......not sayin' you're a sissy or anything!!! :lol:
Still trying to decide whether or not to get the VW210, but in the meantime gathering as much info as possible.
Does this mean that the 45* twist applies to a 1.6 TD JX ENGINE also?
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As I mentioned on your thread on the Samba, the twist method is quite subjective. Most of the belts I have seen installed by people not using the tension tool have been overly tight and most of the 1.6 engines I have disassembled have had trashed intermediate shaft bearings. Some have seen several pumps with worn out shaft bushings from being overly tight also. If you err on the side of too loose, the belt can skip a tooth.
Here is how I tension 1.6 belts at this point. With the cam sprocket loosened but bolt finger tight (sprocket can still turn on taper), cam lock in place, pump lock out, I rotate the crank CCW a few degrees. I then rotate back CW to TDC without going past. I then use the little pin wrench on the tensioner and rotate it clockwise. The proper tension is right where you just start feeling the springy tension of the belt. It is just a smidge past feeling no tension at all.
Personally I think that getting the proper tool is a very good idea. Use it and learn what proper belt tension feels like. I understand that when you are new to working on your vehicle the tools can seem expensive, but after you have been working on you cars for a while you realize that tools are extremely inexpensive compared to the cost of a failure that was preventable if the proper tools were used.
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VW apparently agreed since they started building a tension gauge in to the belt tensioners 20 years ago. Just makes sense!
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Mine is at a 45 degree twist on a 1991 1.6
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At your next timing belt interval, pull the intermediate shaft out far enough to see whether or not the outer bearing is worn and flaking apart. If it is, you'll know the 45° twist method is crap and has cost you many times the cost of the tool. $90 is a pittance compared to the cost of the labor to replace the intermediate shaft bearings.
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some people have said 90 deg twist, some have said as much tension as 45deg, i found at about 70 degrees my belt/bearings were howling, had to back it off some, that now changes the timing, well some,,. i find about 80deg of twist seems just about right. using tension tool.