VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: bernefj60 on April 01, 2008, 02:32:35 pm
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Subject pretty much says it all. the head on my project is toast - glow plugs are all stripped and it's in generally crappy shape. So I'm buying a new one. I'm turbo'ing this motor, so now I'm wondering, should i get a turbo head? are they even interchangeable? What's the difference between the 2? this is on a mechanical block.
Rob
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Have you tried the "Search" function? :?
This is covered I think in the FAQ section.
There is a guy on this board selling new heads, look in the "For sale/Needed" thread area and look for a Thread titled "Group head buy" or something like that.
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I've really been meaning to make a post with all the part numbers for the IDI heads, but I've discovered that the VW part numbers do not match the casting numbers. This is due to the fact that the ETKA lists part numbers for complete heads (valves and all), and not the part numbers for the bare heads (i.e. casting numbers). Thus, while there may be different part numbers for complete heads, there may in fact be no difference in the number cast on the heads. This is likely due to the fact that the only difference between the IDI NA and turbo heads seems to lay in the valves. The Turbo uses sodium-filled exhaust valves to deal with the added heat, the NA does not.
I'm fairly confident that this is the only difference. As an example, the TD head on my 1982 Quantum has a casting number of 068 103 373 F. I pulled the original head off of a 1985 NA Golf with mechanical lifters and it had the same casting number.
Now, there are sepculations about different head material, different seats, etc, but every head specialist with experience with VW diesel heads that I've ever talked to claims that there is no difference in the head with respect to material in either the casting or the seats. So, take that as you will.
I'm happy to be wrong, but that is how I see it based on my research. If someone else here has some sound evidence to the contrary, then I'd be happy to hear it and revise my position.
As per buying a new head. Be advised that many of the "new" heads for sale out there, as many are made in China with inferior metal. The brand that comes to mind is AMC. I've got one of their heads on a motor that I'll be junking soon. Mind you, this head was put on a motor that had overheated before, and this head was put on as a replacement. I pulled one of the cam caps, and it looked like a lava flow. It almost appeared like the metal had flaked off, and then re-formed within the journal cap. I've never seen anything like it. Speaking with people who rework diesel heads, they say if forced to weld one of those heads, the rods blow through the aluminum like butter: leaving large molten holes. All-in-all, I'd steer clear of any head supplier who wont' tell you the manufacturer's name.
Basically, I'd only trust OEM, or Kolbenschmidt. And they aren't cheap. It just goes to that old saying: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
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well i think to find out whats what? is have a metaleurgist test the metal in and around the head including valves ? thats the only way to get to the bottom of that delima? do we have any metaleurgist's members?
but there is a place that makes complete heads ! here in the states that place is called (Top line) cost about 500bucks? i never tried one so i cannot atest if thier good or not? but it's gotta be better then china?
Duane
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my rabbit has an amc head on it, no complaints thus far, it came with it but i have had the motor apart after my run away. i kind of wonder if the low oil pressure and run away could be contributed to this head at all due to high oil flow from around the cams at highways speeds. but honestly i have driven it with this head for over a year since my run away and over 20,000 miles. but if it works it works haha for now anyway. its nice and shiny if that counts for anything
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/PA280440.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/PA280432.jpg)
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but if it works it works haha for now anyway
Yeah. That's the biggie. I wouldn't buy one new if I were in the market, but if it's there and it's working, then why not. The one on my motor works, but the motor overall is tired, and I worry about camshaft play with the funky journals on mine. Once I pull the motor, I'll pull the cam and lifters, then set the cam back in to look for play there. I'm sure that there's some, but who knows how much.
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Has anyone ever heard of or have an aftermafket TD Head made by Topline
They are made in the US. The VW Parts Place is selling them new for 550. Any good or bad Reviews?
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IIRC topline is the same brand prothe sells. He sells them for a lot cheaper than parts place, but they are notoriously overpriced. I have been hoping prothe would make a statement about origin for some time now. The prices on his site are very very low.. so it makes me wonder..
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the one on my caddy says "Brazil". I get the impression that these were cast the world around- but sounds like the ones from China have the worst metal- would be interesting to have a metalurgist compare them (not I).
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If you get a TopLine head I recomend you take it apart and clean all the oil passages. actually, I recomend that on anything. I would clean a reworked head myself too. I got a topline head and it had plenty of Aluminum grit all thru the oil passages, inder the shim buckets, etc. Have no running experience with it yet.
The metal did not look as porous as my 84 VW head made in Mexico, but not as smooth a casting as my the 84 German head.
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I'm not sure about other shops but the shop I deal with
tests, cleans, reworks, rinses and subsequently blows the passages out with compressed air. Everything I've ever seen come back from my shop is food grade clean, i mean immaculate like the virgin mother. They come back in a heat shrinked bag with absolutely no metal shavings.. if it came back any other way I'd crucify them too.
That's my 2 cents FWIW. 8)
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My head is was second hand never used complete topline head off ebay. I've never had a problem with it, I'm not a expert on heads but I thought the quality was good. All so I got a topline catalog and they list the complete NA and TD heads as the same part number. So I'm hoping It's made like a TD head and not a NA one that happens to work for both.
BTW, I called TOPLINE to get a cam (the time I used excessive force getting my pulley off :oops: ) and the distributer I called didn't have one so he called the factory and they didn't have any and didn't know when/if they would again. :cry: $100 brand new
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Everything I've ever seen come back from my shop is food grade clean, i mean immaculate like the virgin mother. They come back in a heat shrinked bag with absolutely no metal shavings.. if it came back any other way I'd crucify them too.
That's my 2 cents FWIW. 8)
Shops I deal with build many a roundy round and drag race motors, but never know when that one little piece of grit that will ruin your day. Poo happens, I like the peace of mind knowing I cleaned it. :wink: I find it hard to trust others, never know what kind of day they are having. heck, half the time I don't even trust myself. :lol:
the box for my TD head said can be used on an NA. I installed a VW cam from another engine in the Topline head and it clearanced out to spec. Using the VW cam because I have some FSP autocross legalities I have to keep in mind.
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OK, some great info here. So, from whom should i buy the head? the money isn't a huge deal, and i want it done right. I suppose it makes send to replace the valves, cam, pushrods, and lifters at the same time, no? I'm buying a complete rebuild kit, so I might as well buy it all from the same folks. Lastly, i'm looking for a source to rebuild my turbo. Any leads there?
Thanks
Rob
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turbo rebuild is easy. Gpopshop.com search that on here and it will bring up plenty of posts about them
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you'll be looking for a long time for push rods... there are none in the engine.
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HA! What an idiot i am. I just starting typing and wasn't thinking. I took the damn thing apart, you'd think i'd know that.