VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Helliouse on January 14, 2008, 08:58:05 am
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Hello all,
Exciting news in the FAQ post, IDI to DI conversion is an option!
1Z/AHU head, just to keep some of the excitement in check, you will need DI pistons in you IDI, so 1.6ers will have to wait, for a set or look into what it takes to get a pair of 1.9l pistons in (not sure if possible). There is mention of a 1.2l DI(PD) piston that might work.
Now the big question for some of us is what is the Power Potential out of the 1.6l IDI/1.9l head or 1.9l IDI(AAZ) vs. a DI 1Z/AHU engine vs. electronic/EFI DI ALH (I think)
VNT 20, Dave's port work, with Dave's cam. Or and apples to apples compare.
As i am not, and haven't looking in to DI performance in the VW world, i am not sure what they are capable of. I have seen You Tube vids, of TDI at 200hp, also had a VW mech, tell me 200hp what easy to get on a TDI/DI engine.
I also know that in the IDI world 200HP is a hard, very hard, number to reach.
Thanks for your posts ahead of time.
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By the time VW diesel modding became popular, TDIs were already here for a long time. Getting more power out of a basic TDI was easy by tampering with boost and fuel sensors. An IDI on the other hand needs its fuel injection pump taken apart for crucial performance.
TDIs can handle more power out of the box, which is appealing. TDI owners also had more money, which attracts business/tuners into making power enhancement parts for TDIs. Doing business for VW IDIs exclusively is not very feasible (been there, seen it) so most of the R&D-proven stuff are in TDIs.
There are some non-VW IDIs that make a lot of power.. particularly the inline-5 3.0L MB engines.
According to this paper (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2329), IDIs still have potential. fspGTD, who was one of the most knowledgeable members here, experimented using a TDI turbo on his 1.6 IDI with interesting results - see the second post in the above link or search for his threads.
Personally, I'd choose a TDI for 200hp because it's just easier (I'm lazy), and they yield slightly better fuel economy. I had a 1.6L IDI with Dave's work and it made very good power (with 0% smoke) given the stock IDI nozzles, 9mm pump size, and no intercooling. Fuel economy was still good. I believe 200hp is very possible. The only obstacle AFAIK is the headgasket lifting. One solution is o-ringing or fire-ringing to keep the headgasket together, but that means more work.. not appealing to the lazy diesel modders.
The IDI needs high compression to function in daily driving, which may be an issue high performance + PCP. VW TDIs can comfortably start in Canadian winter with 17.5:1 or lower compression. Original ALH TDI headgasket setup + 200whp = no problem. VW IDIs begin with 22 or 23:1 CR and you can't go much lower than that without affecting cold starts signficantly.
I'm still very interested in seeing VW IDI research continue.
A lightweight 1.6 IDI converted to TDI with 1.2 TDI pistons might make a very cool high-MPG machine in light vehicle.. the 1.6 has a pretty short stroke though. More torque at lower RPM may be better for MPG.
Cheers,
Mark
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There are some non-VW IDIs that make a lot of power.. particularly the inline-5 3.0L MB engines.
Cheers,
Mark
5-cylinder 3,0 MB could be compared to Vw IDI, not very good. Itīs the 6-cylinder 3,0 MBs that rocks 8)
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I have heard of a 1.4 DI vw in europe, but not a 1.2. Anyone know how those pistons compare with the 1.6 bore?
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I believe the 1.4 had the same bore as the 1.9, and is a 3 cylinder also I believe.
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I can see that- a 1.6 4cyl has the same bore as a 1.2 3cyl (assuming the stroke is the same). just never heard of such a thing before. There are some mystery pistons on thesamba- if they are out of a 5 cyl they might be close- ?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=414152
this kind of conversion would take some close checking of design dimensions, but once someone cracks the code...
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Those have to be gasser pistons as that dish is way to big for a Diesel.
2.2l turbo.
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This engine is used in the Audi A2 In Europe, it has the same bore and stroke as the 1.6 TD but uses an all aluminum engine.
It would be interesting to find out if the piston pin diameter is the same and if the connecting rods have the extra weight on the bearing cap that the 1.9 has to offset the extra weight of the piston.
Here are the specs: www.audiworld.com/news/01/A2TDI/chart.htm
Herman
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Here (http://www.vw3literlupoclub.com/1200_TDI_motorfiets.html) is the 1.2 in a bike. Unfortunately no video. 90 hp with chip tuning.
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Thank you Mark for this outstanding contribution.
I am like you, I hope and believe that IDIs have a future and that the advent of DIs, single rail HDi, etc is not signalling the end of an era for mechanical injection diesels but rather a plateau.
I find your comments (and your source's) concerning the need to redesign prechambers very interesting but as a newbie , a user, (and crude amateur) I can only say: please go for it.
Here are my own thoughts about TD performance(please don't laugh).
Apart from what you are suggesting regarding fuel atomization (heat), I would like to suggest that one way to make IDIs more performing would be to reduce the compression ratio down to 14-1. The pressure inside the combustion chamber would drop of course to perhaps 160 psi (just a guess). An external compressor (positive displacement) driven by the AAZ crank would provide an additional 175 psi and feed the the cylinders via an air tank.
I would like to rebuild (one day) a AAZ with shorter connecting rods and lighter pistons. This along with other blueprinting measures would allow this engine to rev higher (maybe 6500 rpm).
Just food for thought. I hope I will not bore anyone.
Haybayian.
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1,2TDI has 24mm piston pin. Dunno how long rod it has.
I would like to rebuild (one day) a AAZ with shorter connecting rods and lighter pistons. This along with other blueprinting measures would allow this engine to rev higher (maybe 6500 rpm).
Why shorter :shock: The longer the better. 1Y already have longer rods (150mm) and lighter pistons :wink:
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Thank you Mark for this outstanding contribution.
I am like you, I hope and believe that IDIs have a future and that the advent of DIs, single rail HDi, etc is not signalling the end of an era for mechanical injection diesels but rather a plateau.
I find your comments (and your source's) concerning the need to redesign prechambers very interesting but as a newbie , a user, (and crude amateur) I can only say: please go for it.
Here are my own thoughts about TD performance(please don't laugh).
Apart from what you are suggesting regarding fuel atomization (heat), I would like to suggest that one way to make IDIs more performing would be to reduce the compression ratio down to 14-1. The pressure inside the combustion chamber would drop of course to perhaps 160 psi (just a guess). An external compressor (positive displacement) driven by the AAZ crank would provide an additional 175 psi and feed the the cylinders via an air tank.
I would like to rebuild (one day) a AAZ with shorter connecting rods and lighter pistons. This along with other blueprinting measures would allow this engine to rev higher (maybe 6500 rpm).
Just food for thought. I hope I will not bore anyone.
Haybayian.
An external compressor would be very inefficient. The TDI is a more efficient design. I don't believe IDI's will ever return myself as they will always get worse mileage and have higher emissions.
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Thanks for all the responses, and the information about pistons.
I guess I should clarify,
A 1.6l tdi revving at 6000rpm, something unheard of for a diesel, is what i am interested in, or 7000rpm.
With out a pre-chamber you gain 20% is fuel mileage, not to mention engine efficiency. Imagine having to cram all that air through that tiny hole your self...then get it out on to the piston.
I like the idi, i love my 1.6l but i my quest for HP, i am not partial to either, i just what a motor that i can drive and kick the pants off of a wrx, celica, or tiberon. WRX might be a little hard :-P, but you get my point.
If running forged pistons in a 1.6l in a DI format would yield the low end torque of a diesel, yet the high-end HP of a revving gasser, you have one hell of an engine, thro a tranny under it that had work that power...look out.
Now i might just be dreaming...usually am, but I imagine this whole idi scene started this way.
I guess this quest lead to finding a good set of pistons that fit, the rest
well that is another story that I am not going to talk about until I have it all ready!
So does any one know where one could get a set of blanks?
Does any one have a 1.6l piston that is ***ed and doesnt mind cutting into it? How much material is in the piston top?
And does any one have actual number of what the highest factual HP achieve on a m-TDI, TDI and IDI?
I know Andy2 is close to 200, but it is far from a daily driver.
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1,2TDI has 24mm piston pin. Dunno how long rod it has.
I would like to rebuild (one day) a AAZ with shorter connecting rods and lighter pistons. This along with other blueprinting measures would allow this engine to rev higher (maybe 6500 rpm).
Why shorter :shock: The longer the better. 1Y already have longer rods (150mm) and lighter pistons :wink:
Shorter connecting rods and lighter pistons means less moving weight and higher rpm. The cost of course is lower compression (which I addressed in my post). :)
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Shorter connecting rods and lighter pistons means less moving weight and higher rpm. The cost of course is lower compression (which I addressed in my post). :)
Shorter rod in not always lighter. I have 20mm longer rods than stock and itīs still lighter than stock. And shorter rod will always be worse than longer (rod/stroke ratio)
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I dug up the following info regarding the 1.2 and 1.4 TDI from the A2. There are both 1.2L and 1.4L 3 cylinder diesel that were used in the A2. The 1.2L Engine code "ANY" uses 76.5mm pistons with 24mm wristpin and is direct injection with 61 HP, Engine code "AMF,BHC,ATL" are 1.4L Direct injected with 79.5 mm pistons with 26mm wristpin. AMF & BHC=75 HP, ATL= 90 HP. There are different part numbers for the connecting rods between 1.2 and 1.4 versions. Also all versions are PD injection with Turbocharging and intercooling.
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Well well i have found the complete piston stats for the 1.2l TDI
Now does any one have the stats for the 1.6l?
Might be in the shop manual...will check that when i get home.
Piston:
Piston Out Dia. Φ 76.465
Measured: Φ 76.463
Overall Length 63.05
Measured: 63.07
Compression Height 41.865
Measured: 41.866
Ring Groove Width Top 1.841
Measured: 1.842
2nd 2.048
Measured: 2.047
3rd 3.029
Measured: 3.032
Pin Hole Dia. 24.012
Measured: 24.011
Offset 0.48
Measured: 0.47
Land Thickness Top 8.95
Measured: 8.94
2nd 5.0
Measured: 5.0
3rd 2.79
Measured: 2.79
Crown Thickness 8.55
Measured: 8.63
Boss Distance
Weight (g) 469.8 g
Measured: 470.4 g
Found here (http://www.katech.re.kr/bas/sta/Upload/Board/TBL_ANAL_PART_000396_1.pdf) is a PDF
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The wheels are turning. :twisted:
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Shorter connecting rods and lighter pistons means less moving weight and higher rpm. The cost of course is lower compression (which I addressed in my post). :)
Shorter rod in not always lighter. I have 20mm longer rods than stock and itīs still lighter than stock. And shorter rod will always be worse than longer (rod/stroke ratio)
I think you are missing my point. A shorter stroke always yields higher rpm in any IC engine, in most cases producing higher HP at the cost of low end torque. It all depends what you want to achieve . My argument is that a VW 1.9 L TD diesel could produce more than 100 hp/litre if it was given an opportunity to rev higher.
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Shorter connecting rods and lighter pistons means less moving weight and higher rpm. The cost of course is lower compression (which I addressed in my post). :)
Shorter rod in not always lighter. I have 20mm longer rods than stock and itīs still lighter than stock. And shorter rod will always be worse than longer (rod/stroke ratio)
I think you are missing my point. A shorter stroke always yields higher rpm in any IC engine, in most cases producing higher HP at the cost of low end torque. It all depends what you want to achieve . My argument is that a VW 1.9 L TD diesel could produce more than 100 hp/litre if it was given an opportunity to rev higher.
So you want shorter stroke? Or rods? Two different things. 128hp/litre at the moment from destroked 1,9 bottom...
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[Quote
So you want shorter stroke? Or rods? Two different things. 128hp/litre at the moment from destroked 1,9 bottom...[/quote]
I want shorter stroke and I believe that shorter rods is simpler and less expensive than a re-engineered crankshaft (am I wrong?)
It would be useful if you could elaborate on the 128 hp/litre engine you are refering to. What was done to it, actually?
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[Quote
So you want shorter stroke? Or rods? Two different things. 128hp/litre at the moment from destroked 1,9 bottom...
I want shorter stroke and I believe that shorter rods is simpler and less expensive than a re-engineered crankshaft (am I wrong?)
It would be useful if you could elaborate on the 128 hp/litre engine you are refering to. What was done to it, actually?[/quote]
that is his 1.7L monster... he somehow finnished the motor and extracted 200+hp!!! :lol:
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[Quote
So you want shorter stroke? Or rods? Two different things. 128hp/litre at the moment from destroked 1,9 bottom...
I want shorter stroke and I believe that shorter rods is simpler and less expensive than a re-engineered crankshaft (am I wrong?)
It would be useful if you could elaborate on the 128 hp/litre engine you are refering to. What was done to it, actually?
Shorter rods will only get you lower compression. You HAVE to mess with the crank to get a shorter stroke, then you have to get rods or a piston/rod combo that matches the changed stroke.
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Stroke is a function of the crank throw eccentric (the distance from main bearing axis to rod bearing axis X 2). Changing the rod length will affect compression ratio and valve interference, but will not alter the stroke.
In other words, rod length controls where in the cylinder the piston goes up and down, but only the crank controls how far up and down the piston goes.
moT
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Stroke is a function of the crank throw eccentric (the distance from main bearing axis to rod bearing axis X 2). Changing the rod length will affect compression ratio and valve interference, but will not alter the stroke.
In other words, rod length controls where in the cylinder the piston goes up and down, but only the crank controls how far up and down the piston goes.
moT
Thanks you guys, indeed stroke is a function of crank rotation.
I stand corrected.
My question remains: what is the best way to increase maximum rpm?
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Buy a gas engine. Diesels have more forces and pressures. The components are heavier. You aren't going to get the same rpm's out of a Diesel. Lower compression some, increase boost, increase torque. That's what it's all about, the wide range of pulling power so that you don't have to stay in some narrow high rpm powerband.
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I donīt understand why you all want to lower your compression. I have 24+CR and works fine with 35psi boost. It also revs very happily to 5800rpm, more higher next summer...
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I'm sorry for the dumb question but why can't you run 1.6 IDI turbo pistons with a DI head? If there is something about the crown shape that is undesirable can you machine them?
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I donīt understand why you all want to lower your compression. I have 24+CR and works fine with 35psi boost. It also revs very happily to 5800rpm, more higher next summer...
It looks that I have yet to learn quite a bit about performance in diesels. I would like to know what you have done to your engine for it to rev happily to 5800 rpm. My stock AAZ is rated 75 hp @ 4500 rpm. I had my VE IP rebuilt with performance mods by a guy called Giles in Toronto. I have a Garrett T3, rebuilt too. I will run 25-30 psi of boost. My intercooler is from a TDI. I have made a 3" exhaust system. If you have time please tell me what I should do to get this engine to crank out 200 bhp.
Thanks.
Haybayian
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I'm sorry for the dumb question but why can't you run 1.6 IDI turbo pistons with a DI head? If there is something about the crown shape that is undesirable can you machine them?
IDI pistons
(http://www.vwdieselparts.com/pistons1.jpg)
DI pistons
(http://www.illinoisdynocenter.net/images/Img19.jpg)
Your CR would be through the roof and there would be poor air turbulence
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I'm sorry for the dumb question but why can't you run 1.6 IDI turbo pistons with a DI head? If there is something about the crown shape that is undesirable can you machine them?
Basically DI engines have the combustion chamber in the piston. IDI's have the combustion chamber (or pre-chamber) in the head. Pics for reference:
TDI pistons- note the hollowed out part in the middle:
(http://www.dieselvw.com/images/1ZPistons.JPG)
And IDI pistons- no chamber:
(http://www.dieselvw.com/images/16Pistons.JPG)
Brendan
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This is a link to the Kolbenschmidt automotive catalog home page. There is a lot of information on dimensions. I think you will be able to find the info there, if you don't get side tracked looking at all the other cool stuff :wink:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=8128
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libbybapa if you follow the link, it will take you to a pdf that has all the wrist pin dimensions as well.
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I don't know if this will help. It took me a while to figure out how to read this stuff.
http://www.msi-motor-service.com/download/kolben/e/ko_benkat_en_WEB.pdf
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I believe the compression height is what you are looking for. 41.7 mm for 1.6 vs 41.865 for the 1.2, so maybe they could work with .165mm shaved off. Not sure about the pin specs for the 1.2 though. Maybe the 28 is for the unbushed hole.
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It is inspiring that VW is still re-designing their engines based on what they started 30 years ago. If these interchanges work, what a tribute to a great design- and unheard of on anything else (except BMW motorcycles, perhaps).
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Subsonic, thanks for the link. Anyone know the engine code for the 1.2 TDI? :D
Andrew
Closest one I could find under vw in the catalog was:
Polo 1.3D 1272cm3
08-1985 07-1990
Engine code MN
22:1
33kw
75x72
Posistion 13 Page915
That was the smallest dispacement Diesel I could find.
Any help?
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http://www.audiworld.com/news/99/a2_2/content.shtml
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=107426
http://www.a2oc.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-5379.html
Looks like it is engine code:
ANY
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Price and part no. for piston in 1.3l
found at http://www.vagcat.com/epc/cat/vw/LU/1999/231/49/2941729/
BASIC GERMAN PRICELIST
part number 036107065AT
Partnumber Title Price
036107065AT KOLBEN 165.5 Euro
Sorry Libby, I though you ment the pin lenght etc, they didnt state the hight of the pin in the piston.
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Any updates? Homebrew 1.6 TDI would be awesome. If there are no pistons that will work, does a AAZ block fit into a Mk2 chassis easily?
So 165.5 Euros is $250 Canadian. Not too bad but shipping will suck and I have no idea if that includes rings, wrist pins, etc.
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I think it includes rings and wrist pin, if i remember correctly.
But it still doesn't help me find where to buy the damn things. :-(
$700 ish for 1.6 stock pistions +300 for DI pistions...need them either way...
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The site says they are made by Kolbenschmidt and Alcan. I can't find them anywhere in the KS catalogue and Alcan was sold to Federal-Mogul and it appears they don't make them anymore.
:?:
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Stock 1.6TD pistons are less than $300 from myke_w.
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Well $300 makes a hell of a lot more sence.
Who makes them? Myke_W's i mean.
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I'd say get in touch with one of the list members in the UK as they would probably have to get them from a dealer. Still no absolute proof they will work though.
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Looks like engine codes AMF and BHC might have the right size but I am not sure. They are both 1.2 TDI Audi engines.
Myke_w's pistons are genuine Kolbenschmidts.
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Looks like i need to have a talk with Myke_W...
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Screw it, a 1.6TDI seems unrealistic, even if 1.2 pistons will fit. Time to look for an AAZ block!
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I did some checking on ETKA
Got some info on this..
The piston part #'s are as follows
cyl 1,2 - 045107065H
cyl 3 - 045107065J
Rod - 045198401
The Engine codes they came in - ANY & AYZ
The model those motors came in - Lupo 99-06 TDI
I think if I were going to do this I'd get myself a set of used pistons with rings off ebay.de for cheap just to see what I was dealing with.
Hopefully the info helps anyone who's interested.
He'll I'd give it a shot if I could find the parts cheap.
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I guess all you really need is one piston to see if it would work at all.
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The ANY engine is called the 3L because it only uses 3L of diesel to go 100km. It is found in the VW Lupo 1.2 and the Audi A2. It is a PD engine and I haven't yet seen pistons for sale and I have checked sites from several european countries. I guess we need to find out where the Audi A2 and the VW Lupo 1.2 were sold. This engine might have also been in the Seat Ibiza Ecomotive.
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OK, it's not a 1.2 in the SEAT, it's a 1.4TDI. From what I can gather, the 1.2 TDI is very rare and basically a concept car. I doubt pistons for it can be obtained without great difficulty. Audi and VW do not currently sell a 1.2TDI in any european country that I can see (I've checked Germany, Poland, UK and France).
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Well the 1.4 has the same bore as an AAZ, so it won't work for a 1.6.
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i wonder if the pistons can be modified (remove outer material) or is there any hardened areas that you can't modify? or just get those chinese companies to make a smaller piston :wink:
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Rallydiesel- you are right in that none are sold right now, they were in production from 2000-2005- made about 175,000 cars. don't know how many were 1.2 TDi's. They are reviving the A2 badge for 2009, also with a 1.2. Somebody's got to have one in a boneyard somewhere. Here is the A2 forum DE. Sorry, I no sprekenzie Deutch.
http://www.a2-freun.de/forum/index2.php
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Stuff for sale is on the link called 'A2 basar' (A2 market), then click 'teileangebot' (pieces offered) then use babelfish to translate any pages: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ selecting german to english from the menu.
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Well well i have found the complete piston stats for the 1.2l TDI
Now does any one have the stats for the 1.6l?
Might be in the shop manual...will check that when i get home.
Piston:
Piston Out Dia. Φ 76.465
Measured: Φ 76.463
Overall Length 63.05
Measured: 63.07
Compression Height 41.865
Measured: 41.866
Ring Groove Width Top 1.841
Measured: 1.842
2nd 2.048
Measured: 2.047
3rd 3.029
Measured: 3.032
Pin Hole Dia. 24.012
Measured: 24.011
Offset 0.48
Measured: 0.47
Land Thickness Top 8.95
Measured: 8.94
2nd 5.0
Measured: 5.0
3rd 2.79
Measured: 2.79
Crown Thickness 8.55
Measured: 8.63
Boss Distance
Weight (g) 469.8 g
Measured: 470.4 g
Found here (http://www.katech.re.kr/bas/sta/Upload/Board/TBL_ANAL_PART_000396_1.pdf) is a PDF
Thank you for these informations.
Is it possible to get the PDF? The link is dead..