VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: saurkraut on December 24, 2007, 12:21:08 pm
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Here's my 1.5TD pump.
I used a Yellow dot 1.5 pump, and the LDA off a 1.6 pump. Put them togather and sent them off to the local Bosch rebuilder.
One phone call to Germany by the rebuilder to find out what the heck is going on, and back it comes
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/15TDpump.jpg)
They said that the Krauts in Germany said its a 1.5 TD pump, set up like a normal 1.5TD pump
They felt it necessary to retag the pump:
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/15TDpump2-1.jpg)
Its on now with the cam set, but not the pump.
Need to set the valve clearence, time the pump, recalibrat the break pressure on my injectors, finish the 2.5" exhaust, put the dash board back togather, connect a few nitnoid things, and the 1.5 TD winter beast will be on the road!
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you got a poptester up there? if not i got one down here! if you need to use it?
thanks Duane
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Thanks for the offer, but I have access to a pop tester where the car currently resides: European Car Service in Ironwood Michigan. Its a reasonable drive from here.
The only real hazard is the elk herd the DNR transplanted in the northern part of the state. I don't know where they got these things. They're freak'n huge! Bigger than a horse, and about as smart.
The proprietor lets me work inside in the winter, and lets me use all the special tools. Here is a view of the winter rabbit in work. Its sitting below a TDi Beetle.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0018.jpg)
The details are: 2.5" exhast from the turbo to rear bumper, new bearings on all four corners, new breaks on all four corners, FN five speed, new CV joints, 14" jetta wheels, new radiator, reringed, new bearings, 1.6 flywheel and clutch, big oil pump, and Raceware 11mm head studs in the motor, rebuilt k24 turbo and 1.5TD franken pump.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0055.jpg)
I think I'm the only one who uses the pop tester, as the IDI drivers are becomeing few and far between. I always have to collect a bunch of junk injectors, pull the shims, measure and sort them them, and then start calibrating.
Same thing with the machanical heads. Last weekend, I was trying to use his valve shim kit, but its missing all the shims in the middle of the range. I'll have to use my kit, and pull some heads apart to replenish the stock.
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ELK??? WOW you know DNR just gave you alternative transportation! a couple turn signals on the antlers and a running light on the butt and your good to go! L.O.L. :lol: i'm suprised those canadians have not thought of that? or have they? :roll: sorry! ahh i coud not resist! saukraut can you speak and understand german? or whats on that dieselsend website?
send me a P.M. and i'll give you my phone # or give me yours?
see if we can get something rolling here?
thanks Duane
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what all did you add from the 1.6L td pump to the 1.5L pump to make it a turbo pump before sending it into the local re-builder>?
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The LDA went from the 1.6TD pump to the 1.5L, its used to pump more fuel into the engine under boost.
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is there a link to this sorta thing or? something around to give a newbe a clue whats involved in removing his LDA sos not F**K things up for both pumps.....>??
What's the number on the tag that the shop "re-tagged" when you took it in?
I'd like to know as much about this as possible because Im in the middle of clashing these two pumps togethor to get a 1.5Ltd pump
Laslty I must add in again that I think this is so cool what you've done here! Props to "Saurkraut"
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So what is the Bosch number for a 1.5 TD pump? I can't see it in the photo.
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I'll have to check, I don't remember.
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I wish there was more clear info on a 1.5L TD
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I wish there was more clear info on a 1.5L TD
Yes, me too
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Well, I have a few miles on the 1.5TD project now.
I set the injectors to 170 bar, filled the banjo bolt on the compressore waste gate line with rtv, and unscrewed the other end of the line at the waste gate.
I have the LDA pin about 3/4 way to full ramp with the platic washer still in, full load screw set to 1/4 turn in.
It barely cracks 900F at full throttle, just a hint of smoke. Booste is peaking at 15 PSI
Acceleration is good and it will accelerate in fifth gear above 65MPH. Below that, forget it. It will cruze below 65 in fifth, but acceleration is out of the question.
I think I'll back out the governor screw a healty amount and test that befor I add more fuel.
I have the Aircraft spruce thermocouple hooked up to a VDO egt gauge. I'm still wondering about the low EGT. I hope the measurement is correct.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0007.jpg)
I'll try to putz with it more this weekend.
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Ya the temps seem WAY low to me.
I run @ about 800 on the freeway normal cruising.
K24 for referance and I do have a 1.6 but I cant see it being that much differant.
I can hit 1400deg if I push it.
To much fuel not enough turbo.
38psi non intercooled isnt a good thing..
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When I backed out my governor screw (full throttle stop) on my 1.6td, it really woke up. Thats what I'll try on the 1.5TD befor I give it more fuel. I suspect the governor is pulling the fueling back too soon as the rpm builds.
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Success! I moved the governor screw (see circled screw in attached photo) a little bit, equal to 2 clip positions on the throttle cable, and it really woke this dinky little engine up.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPXgovernorscrew.jpg)
The initial acceleration is good, but at about half way through the wined up, it sprouts teeth and claws and really pulls, all the way to the fuel cut off. Max boost is 20 PSI. Above 65MPH it will accelerate in fifth gear. I did a four car pass with ease, and when I checked my speed going past the last car, I was doing over 80MPH in fifth gear, with more RPM left to go.
AND THE EGT DOESN"T GO ABOVE 750 F !?!?!?!
I really wonder about this Spruce thermocouple/VDO EGT gauge set up. But its not spewing a big cloud of smoke on boost, so maybe its a valid measurement.
Well, I'm going to have the opportunity to verify piston condition. I have a teensy weensy boost leak into the water jacket. No symptoms at idle or lower manifold pressure. Who'd a thunk that the 1.5 stock gasket could take 20 PSI boost? Time for the metal head gasket.
Oh, and here are the numbers on the pump tag:
92935122
0 460 494 134
VE479F2250R134
That’s the latest
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0056.jpg)
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Oh, and I sprayed the whole underside, wheel wells, and engine compartment with LPS 3. I used to use cosmolene, but its been declaired a carcinogen and is getting hard to find.
I bought two gallons of LPS 3 from McMaster Carr, $40 per gallon. I think I used slightly less than 1/2 gallon total so far. I have to spray the inside of the doors yet, but that shouldn't use much more.
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I kind of blind sided the Bosch rebuilder in Chicago. I put an LDA top on a yellow dot 1.5 pump and sent it off to them with no other instructions other than rebuild it. They apparently contacted the Father land for rebuilding instructions. The pump came back from the rebuilder (re tagged) with instruction, supposedly from Bosch in Germany, to run it at 1.00.
Since my plan was to run the engine at twice the stock boost pressure, I decided to up the break pressure to avoid secondary injection from the resulting high cylinder pressure.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11698.210
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mercedes compression ratio is a little lower at 21:1
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I was wondering if they cut the stud short on the inside.
I think upping the governor screw increases fuel, like the max fuel screw but at a different curve.
I drive a 1.5 and it does seem to get power and go, in the midrange.
I'd have to put a sploosh of yellow paint on the front timing cover... maybe put TD on it. :D
I don't think the 1.00 setting was meant for 170 bar injectors.
I'd turn the injection pump with it running and set it on the edge of clackity.
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Hello,
just to came back to the dual spring nozzles, by keeping in mind which time we have at 6000rpm to inject and burn the fuel, for produce power from the burning and not only burn the turbo, in my mind the dual spring injectors are not the one we wand. (time compl. approx 0,005s, burn delay approx 0,001s )
@ TinTin,
i am sure that there is no possibility to get 200hp from a 1.6 idi engine at lower speed than 5500rpm. Even it were possible, the mechanical stress will increase and reduce reliable of the power train.
@saurkraut
there is no rule to calculate it easy.
I have make a little design program for idi engine with excel, where i can calculate the combustion pressure durin the injection.
At stock and 5500rpm with 0.8 bar boost, it will be approx 120 bar.
At 6000 rpm with 1.8 bar boost and good intercooling, it will be approx 183 bar. So to have the same pressure drop over the injector, the pop pressure should be adjusted to (155+63) approx 220bar. But for staying able to inject the neccesary amount of fuel, i think the 220bar will be to high, so in my feeling approx 180 bar pop pressure should be a good value.
Best Regards
Like i said twice in this post: the 1.00 spec and all the parameters for the pump appearently came directly from Germany. It was a Bosch certified rebuild joint, and they were literally floored when they recieved this odd ball pump.
And believe me, I did not have a warm fuzzy feeling about the 1.00 static timing specification. It sure seemed that they were pulling stuff out of their rear ends. But I had no idea what they did to the pump, and rather than blow off the only input I had, I chose to use the static timing number they provided.
The first start for this engine was with the 135 bar injectors and it rattled like an S.O.B. But 1.5s rattled more than 1.6s any way. It also started very nicely for an engine that was re-ringed. Came up on all cylinders rather quickly.
I am getting over 20 PSI boost easily, and I realize the "secondary injection" thing is somewhat in question, but this is more or less an experimental engine, and therefor, I am incline to try stuff. And its acceleration is quite impressive, especially with out the tire fire smoke trail, and an alarmingly low EGT. I drive these things like i stole them, so it will see 20 PSI booste on a frequent (more than hourly) basis.
I've had the LDA pin out a couple times already, and the pin scrape witness mark looks to be 'normal' with the plastic washer still in place.
With the 170 bar injectors, the rattle has subcided noticeably, but its still louder than the 1.6. So basically, I had two reasons for going to 170 bar: the "secondary injection" thing, and a little hedge against the 1.00 static timing.
With very little time on the engine, and the 170 bar injectors, the 'cold' start (30 F) is very good.
I'll be pulling the head this week end (if I can get to the car *snow storm*) to see if my teeny weeny boost leak is in fact the head gasket. I had my foot into this thing quite allot, so I'm very interested in seeing what the pistons look like. Its also getting the metal head gasket too.
If the only down side to 170 bar break pressure is only fuel milage and shorter belt life, I'd be inclined to leave it there. I change timing belts at half the recomended interval, and how bad can it screw up a 50+ MPG engine's milage?
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Rotating the LDA to a higher slope makes a noticable difference, so something is working there. I supose I should pull the top off the pump and to see if they pulled that pin out, or shortened it. Crap.
I hesatate to say this, and I haven't driven my cranked up 1.6TD recently, but the performance of the 1.5Td, when its wound up, is comparable to the 1.6TD. Enough to say that I'm glad that I saved an extra 1.5 crank and rods, incase I want to 'destroke the 1.6TD.
The low EGT is really bugging me.
When the 1.5TD is in full service, I'll compair them head to head on my 'measured' distance test strip. There will be issues of different vehicle weight, speedometer errors and other variables. But I'm really curious about the performance aspects of the 1.5TD.
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Like i said twice in this post: the 1.00 spec and all the parameters for the pump appearently came directly from Germany
Did they know you were going to use 170 bar injectors?
I know you've said it twice because we keep hounding you on this point. Last time I try, promise.
Do you understand that the breaking pressure of the injectors effects the timing?
I chose to use the static timing number they provided.
Could have been the right choice, especially with a good cold start.... I'd still have to turn it while running. Rattle has alot to do with timing, retarding the timing a little can reduce rattle and still provide plenty of power.
I just took a look at the Bentley and they say the yellow dot pump is supposed to be set to .83- .93,... the later non-yellowdot was up around 1.10
I don't suppose we could get you to take the top off and let us see what they did with the extra post :D
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Nope, they don't know what I'm running my injectors at. As a matter of fact, they had no Idea what injector pressure I should run as I asked them multiple times, and they never got back to me on that.
This engine is an experiment, running allot of boost, to see if a 'over square' vw diesel will generate significant HP.
There is also some evidence that high cylinder pressure can cause secondary injection.
I had a recomendation to set the break pressure at 180 bar for the boost level I'm running.
Yup, its not set up like the yellow dot pump, its not set up like the standard 1.5 pump, and it seems to run very nicely with the 170 bar injectors at 1.00.
It rattled like mad at 135 bar.
170 bar effectively retards the timing.
Its my impresson from posts on this and other diesel forums that too much advance will melt pistons and not show a high EGT.
I have yet to see someone running retarded timing and running into big trouble. From my own observations, excessively retarded timeing ( jumping 1 toothe on the injection pump sprocket from an 85 MPH bird stick to the grill) makes BIG EGT. And this engine is producing discustingly low EGT, so too much retard doesn't seem to be a problem yet.
So, I guess, using the recomended timing, and jacking around with the break pressure is somewhat similar to timing by ear, without the possibility of secondary injection on full boost.
I do not see any other significant down side to running higher break pressure.
If some one can offer me evidence that this is bad jombo, I'll take it under advisement.
Hopefully, I'll have time this weekend when I'm changing over to a metal head gasket to pop open the pump and see what the Bosch pump bunnies left me, and I'll take some super dooper cell phone pics.
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Yeah, great work.
I suggest folks turn the pump and listen while it's running, even if they do know what the injectors break at. :D
About time someone built a 1.5 turbo diesel.
I want to know what kind of fuel mileage it will get, I expect it to be better then the 1.6.
I plan to turbo my fresh 1.5. Hope to have it converted to vegy and turboed for the energy fair in June. You aren't too far away maybe we can check each others cars out some time.
Did you use a 1.5 block or stick the 1.5 internals in a 1.6 block?
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Ive been working on my 1.5td project for over a year now and saurkraut has been helping to make it all work out with his supporting evidance and experiences...
Im soo anxous to see where the dyno numbers endup on this one...
1.5 shorter stoke td is a killer build
Props
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I'm really not upset at the questions. I'm just stating my thought process. I'm kind of data oriented, so I really like data points to go to when setting up an engine. And the pressurising cooling system and low EGT kind of absorbed my focus.
The engine is a bone stock 1.5 with new bearings and rings, head studs, metal HG (now), and a 1.6 flywheel and clutch. It lacks the piston cooling jets.
I suspect that running 155 bar injectors, and retarding the timing does about the same thing as going with the recommended static timing and jacking up the break pressure to reduce the static advance. The difference is high break pressure may combat the perceived perils of secondary injection.
Honestly, if anyone has some experience/evidence of bad things from too much injection retard, or high break pressure, let me know.
This time I got to work under an old Mercedes. Don't get too excited, its a gasser
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0144.jpg)
For those who have not seen head studs in a block, here you go. Doesn't this look allot easier for putting on a gasket and head?
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0139.jpg)
I'll never use a non-metal gasket again. The stock 1.5 gasket probably failed the first time it saw boost. Cylinders 3 and 4 gave up the ghost. Massive leaks on both cylinders. Thank goodness the head was still flat, so it was metal gasket time.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0145.jpg)
No evidence of heat damage on any of the pistons.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0138.jpg)
I used a streight edge and feeler gauges to measure piston protrusion with the flywheel on zero. Probably not the best way, but the vw diesel parts guy was out of stock on the proper tool, so I improvised. I came up with .034" so I went with the two hole metal gasket.
I had the 50 notch :wink: ( 5 notch) 1.5 gasket in initially, so my compression should be a little higher, but the turbulence in the swirl chambers is probably better.
I used Audi80's idea of useing the oil fill cap gasket to fix the extra drain hole. With the gasket centered on the studs, the gasket protruded too far out on the front oil drain too. So i made a half moon from the rubber cap gasket too.
To take up the slop and center the 12mm holes of the metal gasket on the 11mm studs in the block, I used small slivers of rubber gasket material to shim the four corner studs, and hold the gasket centered.
This was very easy, on a 1.6 its a no-brainer
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0143.jpg)
With all four cylinders running on diesel, instead of a diesel/antifreeze mixture, I have more boost and have cured the EGT problem. I probably have a little too much EGT though. It shooting out a denser black cloud now too. If floored at low RPM, the EGT shoots right up and heads for melt down temps. (the Spruce thermocouple is the way to go, VERY FAST RESPONSE) If the boost is high, the EGT stabilises at 1250 F. I ran out of time to do any adjusting, but next weekend I'll be turning things down a little. Its kind of fly by EGT now.
I was going to pop the top on the pump too, but since the engine is getting more fuel then it needs, I suspect the stop pin has been bobbed.
I think I'll plumb in the ford probe intercooler I have and see if I can sneak it more fuel again.
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coming along nicly which metal gasket did you end up using? what year?model
happy to hear your pistons are ok, its looking so sweet, props
have you backed it down to 155injectors?
good fix for the exra space on that hole
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Netrz, got a new combustion leak into the water jacket. :?
I supose its a cracked head this time because both gasket surfaces were great, and I can't see a matal head gasket leaking.
Anybody ever put a 1.6 head on a 1.5 block? Seems to me that the major issue is the bigger front oil drain on the front of the head.
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did you get that intercooler on there before this happend?
what boost were you running while this happend on the metal Head gasket>?
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The head was an unknown quantity. It might of had a cracked prechamber when I got it. It was a bare block and crank in the car, and everything else in a box. The original owner of the engine/car neglected the beejeepers out of it.
Its a very small leak, It can be driven, but the cap on the coolant reservoir keeps hissing.
If the cap is taken off and put back on, the system slowly builds pressure.
With the head gasket blowing very early, and big, it may have masked this slow combustion leak.
I don't have an intercooler installed yet. The injectors are still at 170 Bar. My 1.6td has been running 25+ PSI for three years now with no intercooler, and no problems.
Its my informed opinion that the a bigger pipe is the first mod to be done. Intercoolers are a good thing if done right. There have been posts on this board of intercoolers that are too small actually screwing up performance.
I'm probably going to put the mechanical 1.6 head off of my 1.6td on my 1.5td. The 1.6 will get the 1.9 head. So I have to build that head first and put it on the 1.6.
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Awesome project. I've started digging back in to mine. So when can I come out for a test ride? 8)
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Awesome project. I've started digging back in to mine. So when can I come out for a test ride? 8)
Just as soon as I can get all the exhaust gases going out the exhaust pipe. :wink:
I have a line on a brand spakin new 1.5 head, so I'm not sure which head I'll use yet.
If the front oil drain thing between the 1.5 block and the 1.6 head is solvable, I'll go that way. But its nice to know I have a new 1.5 head as a backup.
Nerts, I was going to pick up a rust free rabbit today for the guy who supplies me my parts, but its freak'n snowing here right now. :roll:
More proof of global warming............
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Well, I'm going to try a 1.6 head on the 1.5. I'm guessing the swirlchambers are improved somewhat over the 1.5.
I'd really like to stay with the 1.5 head for nostalga sake, but I think the 1.6 head will be better for flow and strength.
At least I have access to both 1.5 and 1.6 NOS heads, incase it looks like a lost cause getting the front oil drain to seal.
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Your pistons are in backwards.arent they
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Yeah, looks like their in backwards
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Holy crap, what a bone headed mistake. How in the heck did I do that and not notice. (http://www.vortexmediagroup.com/images/banghead.gif)
Thanks for noticing! I probably would have spent an inordinate amount of time inspecting the head for cracks and not even noticed them again cause I don't make mistakes like this.(http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif) I guess I do now....I'll get it switched around next week end.
Runs pritty good for backwards pistons though
I had other issues to deal with that took priority.
Haul a recently aquired rabbit 250 miles for a friend. We have to save the species.
Its very clean:
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0171.jpg)
Pee break
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0173.jpg)
About half way there, the left rear wheel bearing on the Quatro started to howl and that had to be changed. So that kind of finished off the week end for me
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Party in swirl chamber No. 3:
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0178.jpg)
The cover was really loose too. Notice the soot track on the outside edges of the cover to the coolant passages. The metal head gasket was fine.
As long as it was appart again, I drilled the steam passages in between the cylinders
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0177.jpg)
Here is the holes drilled and the pistons flipped around to the proper direction. Thanks again dillenger1! I probably would have never noticed.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0179.jpg)
The rod/piston installation was correct. I just had to pop them out and rotate them 180. Rings and pistons looked great.
I put them in the first time with the block laying on a big sheet of cardboard on the floor. Must have had a major brain fart on block direction back then.
Here is the 11mm 1.6 head I'll be using, with the 'mod' to the front oil drain hole for the 1.5 block.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0180.jpg)
Its JB Stick Weld. Its a really stiff 2 part putty that cures solid, is oil resistant, and good to 250F sustained. It will mash down the rubber insert I used with the other head. If it comes loose, I'll have a massive oil leak on the front of the block, so i won't have to guess whats going on in there.
Hopefully I'll get it running next week end.
Tune in them.
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Well, here is the brand new 1.6 11mm head on and torqued:
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0182.jpg)
And to top the good news department, its still presurizing the cooling system. But, as an added bonus, it pressurizes faster, it runs poorly, and antifreeze is dribblig off the back of the block somewhere.
Cracked block? Probably.
I'm contimplating my options right now; should I find another 1.5 block, use a 1.6 block to get the 12mm studs and put in the 1.5 guts, or use a 1.6TD block to get the 12mm studs, oil jets, and put in the 1.5 guts.
I'm going to stick with the 1.5, as the pump is all set up. (It would cost me another $700 to get it recalibrated to a 1.6.) And I'm still intregued by the 1.5TD concept.
As long as I had my work cut out for me, I took a look at No. 3 swirl chamber cover:
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0184.jpg)
The picture isn't the best, but the groove at the base of the cover is packed with a hard depost of soot. Since I have less than an hour run time total, it was probably hozed up by the previous owner.
The program continues.
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i thought i had bad luck... keep up the insanity tho, i'd really like to see how this car runs with the pistons in the proper direction and with all the exhaust going through the turbo. i vote for a td block if you can get your hands on it, but if u go that route you'll be buying pistons too.
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Yah, it has to go. The little bugger pulls good.
I'm treating this as an R&D effort, so although I was somewhat dissaponted at the latest turn of events, I'm over it now and looking forward to further developements.
I'm also contemplating a k14 or VNT, as the thing makes hi EGTs at low boost and RPM. So if I can get more air to it earlier, that would make things safer.
I also have to compare the piston pin ends of the 1.5 rods to the 1.6 rods and see if 1.5 rods have enough meat to be machined to accept the bigger pins.
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That's what I'd do. If the 1.5 pins are smaller, couldn't you bush the 1.6 pistons?
Andrew
I'll have to take a look at all the stuff on the small end of the rods. Best of my recolection, the pins are smaller in the 1.5. So I'll either use the 1.5 pistons and notch them for the oil jets, see if I can make a thinner rod bushing so I can use the turbo pistons and bigger pin, or remachine the 1.5 rod ends to accept the bigger bushing, pin, and turbo pistons.
If its going to be a Turbo block, I suspect a re-bore will be needed.
Any body have a turbo piston handy? Is there any additional webbing around the oil jet notch?
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And, with a 6.4mm or 0.252" shorter stroke, I wonder if a notch for the oil jets is needed with the 1.5 pistons?
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very very nice short stroke project
You have my support & respect!
Very nice information for anyone tuning into your thread
I look very eagerly for updates regularly
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what did you do to seal the main oil hole on the front of the 1.6head t 1.5 block
I tried to use viton o rings but *** blew oil everywhere
now im back to the 1.5 head and trying to make a custom copper h.gasket with the right thickness copper!
I dont see how anything cut and stuffed into that extra space would keep its seal///
How's that working for you? JB welds best option you think?
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what did you do to seal the main oil hole on the front of the 1.6head t 1.5 block
I tried to use viton o rings but *** blew oil everywhere
now im back to the 1.5 head and trying to make a custom copper h.gasket with the right thickness copper!
I dont see how anything cut and stuffed into that extra space would keep its seal///
How's that working for you? JB welds best option you think?
I used Audi80's idea and made an insert for the front oil drain hole in the gasket from a rubber gasket for the oil fill cap. With the 1.5 or 1.6 head, there was no leaks. Granted, the run time with the 1.6 head was brief, but it didn't leak.
Nope, JB Weld is not the best option. Its quick and dirty, and probably failure prone. The best option is welding in filler, and machining it flat again. Since I'm building a different block now, I'll probably do the weld thing.
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so did it run better with the pistons in backwards or forwards? haha. one mistake that i can't stop giggling about. but no worries, i would easily do the same thing
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Yah, I still can't believe I had that major brain fart. I had the rods on the pistons right, but forked it up putting them in the block.
But actually, yes, it did run better with the pistons in backwards. I think I had it up to 80+ mph on a multi-car pass with more to go, on the first head gasket. It was also the thickest gasket, so I think the piston orientation had very little impact because of the excessivly thick squish band. (five notch Vrs. two notch)
I think what happened is that four head gasket changes, in rapid succession, were too much for the block.
I wonder if all the 11mm blocks have stress cracks right out of the factory from the pittifully short thread engaugement length of the 11mm fasteners. I'll try to take a photo to show how bad it is. Its not the 1mm difference in diameter, its the length.
I'd really like to go with all 1.5 stuff, but finding a brand new block that has never had a head torqued to it is virtually impossible.
Also, from my experiments, the piston cooling jets are a band aid for a too small exhaust, and too low boost pressure on the original engine design. With a little pump adjustment, and the spruce thermocouple, I could have easily adjusted this thing to stomp the beejeepers out of a stock 1.6td rabbit, and never go over 1200° F.
All thing being equal, and given a choice of wether to have cooling jets or not, its definatly better to have them. But they are not a neccessity for drastically improved performance.
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very informative info youve been reaserching
Im very inpressed and im about to drop the turbo onto my n/a 1.5
good call about the largly undersized exhaust I think I agree....
we'll soon find out.
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So where and how did the 1.5 block crack exactly? Any photos? I've heard that the 1.6 blocks have strengthening ribs, but I'm curious to see where your 1.5 block failed... if it was in the same place. Had your block seen many head removals/retorques prior to your project, when you started using the studs (if the history is at all known)?
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I haven't torn the engine down yet. Probably get to it in a month or so.
My current focus is making a 1.9 mechanical head (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=15780.0) and installing it in my '79, and souping up my Audi 5000TQW.
On this engine, I went to studs after one of the original six point socket head bolts stopped going up on torque when I was putting this basket case motor back together.
I truly suspect all 11mm blocks have one 'hit' on them from the first torquing at the factory. The insertion length of the both OEM hex head bolts, and the stretch bolts is woefully inadequate, and probably damages the block the first time they're torqued.
As a result, all the 1.5 stuff is going into a 12mm block. Which also means I'll have some 11mm Raceware head studs up for grabs too.
I have to get the 1.5 rods next to the 1.6 rods and see if I can overcome the piston pin difference issue. As far as I can tell, first over size 1.5 pistons are rare to non existent. So I can't just punch out a block to the first oversize and toss in the 1.5 stuff. I have some figuring to do before I proceed.
But rest assured, the 1.5TD will live again. Maybe in a more period correct chassis. :wink:
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Since the valves did not contact the pistons when they were in backwards, it begs the question: Are there flat top pistons for our 1.6L ? This would give a little higher compression ratio and therefore slightly higher efficiency.
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The pattern machined into the piston is not for valve relief. Its for flame travel comming out of the swirl chamber.
(http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/SAE/figure_12.jpg)
These things probably have huge cranking losses already from the 23:1 compression ratio. The 23:1 compression ratio was selected for very low temperature un-assisted starts. There is a SAE paper somewhere that discuss the selection for cold starts only while acknowledging that it was a compromise that had a negative effect on other performance parameters.
Higher compression is not the answer.
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Since the valves did not contact the pistons when they were in backwards, it begs the question: Are there flat top pistons for our 1.6L ? This would give a little higher compression ratio and therefore slightly higher efficiency.
you know that these engines pistons don't have valve reliefs right? i think the most effecient cr for our cars is something like 16 or 17, i forget where i read that tho.
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1.5 TD?!?!!? And your squeeeezin mad power outta that little bad boy!
MAJOR PROPS! Love your car, looks awesome in the last snow pic there :)
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Hey there do you still have the studs from the 1.5?? How much do you want for them and to ship them to 98520?? I am going to rering my 1.5 hopefully if the cylinders work out as planned.
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Since the valves did not contact the pistons when they were in backwards, it begs the question: Are there flat top pistons for our 1.6L ? This would give a little higher compression ratio and therefore slightly higher efficiency.
you know that these engines pistons don't have valve reliefs right? i think the most effecient cr for our cars is something like 16 or 17, i forget where i read that tho.
some of the newer diesels have CR as low as 16-18 :) but as stated before, the higher CR is mainly for cold starting. Mercedes created a variable CR engine that could run on gasoline or diesel... now that thing would ROCK!!! dial up the CR for that -20C start, then lower it once its all nice and warmed up for some good performance :twisted: oh yea and it also uses gasoline at higher rpm's :roll: :lol:
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SWEET!
That'd definitely make the 1.5L IDI Kart a little more exciting. lol
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Since the valves did not contact the pistons when they were in backwards, it begs the question: Are there flat top pistons for our 1.6L ? This would give a little higher compression ratio and therefore slightly higher efficiency.
you know that these engines pistons don't have valve reliefs right? i think the most effecient cr for our cars is something like 16 or 17, i forget where i read that tho.
Mercedes created a variable CR engine that could run on gasoline or diesel...
Have you got a link for that ? I googled and could not find it in the sea of M-B stuff. Sounds very interesting.... John Deere did a lot of research on the Wankel rotary engine. They developed a SCORE - Stratified Charge Omnivorous Rotary Engine. Would run on just about anything. Too bad they didn't take it to production. You fill up with what ever is cheapest. I bet it made the governments a little crazy as they would not have been able to social engineer the with fuel tax rates.
http://www.rotaryeng.net/Stratfied-charge-rotary.pdf
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I used Audi80's idea and made an insert for the front oil drain hole in the gasket from a rubber gasket for the oil fill cap. With the 1.5 or 1.6 head, there was no leaks. Granted, the run time with the 1.6 head was brief, but it didn't leak.
Nope, JB Weld is not the best option. Its quick and dirty, and probably failure prone. The best option is welding in filler, and machining it flat again. Since I'm building a different block now, I'll probably do the weld thing.
Notice any other issues with the 1.6TD head? I've pulled everything (turbo, manifolds, BOV, pump, etc.) off of an '84 Quantum with the same goal for my 1.5..
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Notice any other issues with the 1.6TD head? I've pulled everything (turbo, manifolds, BOV, pump, etc.) off of an '84 Quantum with the same goal for my 1.5..
Nope, just the front oil drain. And if i can go to a 12mm TD block, that goes away too. But from what i learned from my 1.9 mechanical head conversion, an aluminum pipe plug from McMaster Carr could be used to down size the 1.6 head front drain hole to work with the 1.5 block. Tap it, screw it flush, and drill it to size.
P/N: 44705K335
Low-Pressure Aluminum Threaded Pipe Fitting 1/2" Pipe Size, Square Socket Plug
In stock at $4.20 Each
(http://www.mcmaster.com/library/20081021/44705K335L.GIF)
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Looks like boreing out the small end of the 1.5 rods to accept 1.6TD pins might be an option.
The 1.6TD rod is on the left 1.5 rod on the right:
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0414.jpg)
The 1.6TD rod has a thicker fillet on the base of the small end:
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0416.jpg)
I have to remove the bushings and make some measurements yet. But looks like I'll be useing 1.6TD pistons and block with the 1.5 rods and crank.
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thats wierd Karl! seems that the 1.5 rod is longer then the 1.6?
i thought it was the other way around?
Duane
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1.6 stroke: 86.4mm
1.5 stroke: 80.0mm
the 1.5 rods are longer by 6.4mm or 0.252".
Here's some longer rod/piston dwell stuff from a couple different sources on the internets. Its the main reason that I'm putzing with a 1.5.
"A longer connecting rod gives more piston dwell at top dead center, and at bottom dead center. The advantage at top dead center is that ignition timing can be retarded because the increased long rod piston dwell gives more time for the mixture to be burned more completely in a smaller combustion chamber volume, closer to top dead center. This means the burning mixture has to work less against itself and the still rising piston on the compression stroke because the ignition fires before top dead center."
"Piston Dwell Time and Piston Speed
An often overlooked factor has to do with piston dwell time, the amount of time the piston remains at the top and bottom of the stroke. Increased rod length yields a longer piston dwell time. Longer dwell time allows for better flow of combustion and exhaust gases since the piston accelerates slower in the transition between "up" and "down" strokes. Intake gases have a longer time to enter the cylinder while exhaust gases are given more time to escape. This translates into more natural torque over a longer range of rpm."
"An engine's rod/stroke ratio is its connecting rod length divided by its stroke and is expressed in ratio form like 1.68:1 or something like that. Generally speaking, a higher ratio is better than a lower one. You should also know that a rod's length is proportional to its angularity within the cylinder, which means as rod length increases, the side load of the piston against the cylinder wall decreases - a good thing. Engines with low rod/stroke ratios - short rods or large strokes confined to low deck heights - are prone to premature piston skirt or cylinder wall wear because of their harsh angle and often increased piston speeds. Engines with higher rod/stroke ratios are generally high-rpm friendly."
"Piston Acceleration / DecelerationReducing piston acceleration / deceleration from and toward TDC will reduce tensile loading of the rod, the number 1 cause of rod failure. Again this can be done by using longer rods. E.g. [TODO]"
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ok, has anyone payed attention to the pistons yet? 1.5 pistons are taller from the wrist pin hole to the top of the piston. 1.6 pistons have the hole closer to the top, so it will have ALOT less compression if someone actually gets 1.6 pistons to fit on 1.5 rods.
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Thanks for the heads up.
Do you have one of each handy to do a side by side photo, or can you measure.
I have a 1.6TD piston with a busted ring land that I got from Dr. Diesel. I'll have to pull the current 1.5 engine appart and look at the difference.
There is a big difference in piston pin diameter. Is the pin diameter difference the difference your seeing as pin to crown height?
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ill go down to my grandpas today and dig through the pile of dead engines and see if i cant find a piston from each kind of motor for a comparison. but the difference is visible when you put them side by side. its less than an 8th inch, but its still different. only reason i know this, is cause the current engine in my rabbit had a bent(rather crushed) rod and broken piston, and i didnt feel like doing a complete rebuild or spending any money, so i went and grabbed a used piston and rod from my grandpa, got home, didnt fit.
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Here's one of the non-turbo 1.6 pistons (left) that came with my 1.6TD block (separately) next to a piston from my 1.5 (right):
(http://www.drrtybyl.com/img/rabbit/piston_comparison1.jpg)
(http://www.drrtybyl.com/img/rabbit/piston_comparison2.jpg)
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Well, looks like the next step is to get a 1.5 piston and measure the actual pin height difference between the 1.5 piston and the 1.6TD piston, and then get the block decked when its getting bored to first over.
Anybody have junk a 1.5 piston laying around so i don't have to take the engine appart?
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Good point.
I really need to make some measurements befor any chips fly. We know for sure there is a .252" stroke difference, but everyhting else is up in the air.
The main bearing journal to deck height should be the same for both the 1.6 and 1.5 blocks. I just have to measure the 1.6 rods and piston, the 1.5 rods and piston, and then figure out what needs to be cut/bored to make it work.
I have everything but a 1.5 piston, except for the four in the cracked block, in the car.
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EDIT:
Looks like the pin hole diameters are 22.5mm (1.6L) vs. 24mm (1.5L). Distance from the bottom oil ring groove to top of the pin hole on each appears to be 1.25mm (1.6L) vs. 4mm (1.5L).
Interested in drilling some holes in your dead 1.5 block to confirm that oil squirter passages line up similarly between the 1.5 and 1.6 blocks? :D
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The distance from the top of the wrist pin hole to the crown on a 1.5 piston would be usefull.
I can probably try drilling a couple of holes in the cracked 1.5 block, but thats a few months away.
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the distance is 1.305" from top of wrist pin hole to piston crown on a 1.5.
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Just received lightened balanced 1.9 rods from Dr. Diesel:
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0459.jpg)
I have a fresh overbored 1.6TD block with new pistons and an extra 1.5 crank standing by. Time to bolt stuff togather and do some measurements. By rough calculations, .063" has to come off of the top of the pistons. So I need to verify actual protrusion, and go from there. Oh yah, I got to come up with a bushing deal for the wrist pin end of the 1.9 rods....
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EDIT:
Looks like the pin hole diameters are 22.5mm (1.6L) vs. 24mm (1.5L). Distance from the bottom oil ring groove to top of the pin hole on each appears to be 1.25mm (1.6L) vs. 4mm (1.5L).
Interested in drilling some holes in your dead 1.5 block to confirm that oil squirter passages line up similarly between the 1.5 and 1.6 blocks? :D
Bump from the dead here, but what?
You're saying a 1.6 diesel has a smaller wrist pin than the 1.5 diesel? That's weird.
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i really dont think they are smaller. i think the 1.5/6's have the same size wrist pins. but im not sure, i will check. and whatever happened to all the activity on here? am i going to have to revive this and start building my 1.5 td?
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i really dont think they are smaller. i think the 1.5/6's have the same size wrist pins. but im not sure, i will check. and whatever happened to all the activity on here? am i going to have to revive this and start building my 1.5 td?
Well, the post I quoted seems to be saying that the 1.6 pins are in fact smaller than the 1.5 pins. 22.5mm pin bore diameter on the 1.6 versus 24mm pin bore diameter on the 1.5, according to that post. It seems... backwards.
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Well, I have everything running right for once. Time to resurect this puppy.
I found that the Raceware studs don't hold up to multiple torquings on my 1.6block/1.9head project. So I suspect this motor may have suffered the same fate.
I just finished lubing all the Raceware studes with molibdinum disulfide grease like the ARP studs in my 1.6/1.9 project, and retorqued it to 50 ftlbs. It torqued really smoothly, and all the studs took the full 50 lbs nicely.
Just got done with the 1 hr block heater application. Tomarrow I'll retorque it and see if the gasket holds. If it blows again, Ill get ARP studs and try again. :)
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Surprize, surprize. The raceware studs failed to privide enough clamping force on the fourth use. The head gasket leaked like a seive.
The block is not cracked. Which is good news/bad news; I can use the block, but the long rods, 1.5 crank and turbo block will have to waite.
The ARP 11mm undercut studs are on order from headbolts.com.
Next week, fire in the hole.
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1.6 has 24 mm wrist pins.
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Yah, and the 1.9 pins are even bigger. 26mm maybe? I have 1.9 rods so I guess I'll just measure.
I'll get this 1.5 block/1.6 head thing running and thrash it for a while. Then I'll gather all the pieces togather and build a 1.6 turbo block, 1.6 turbo pistons, 1.9 rods, with a 1.5 crank and swap it out for the stock 1.5 block.
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yeah the 1.9td pins are 26mm.
I have heard that the 1.5 rod journals on the crank are smaller than the 1.6/1.9 which would make installing the AAZ rods on a 1.5 crank difficult...
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Oh snap.
I guess its time to get all the Bentley manuals out and check big end diameters. Maybe I'll luck out and be able to use undersized rod bearings for the 1.9 to get it down to the 1.5 journal diameter.
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Theres ~1,8mm difference. Pic (http://www.kotinet.com/matti.farm/img01.jpg) is in finnish, but you´ll see the measurements.
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Its running. ARP to the rescue. Its doesn't leak, and its had its hot re-torque. Boy, 1.5 motors sure sound different. They also don't have the lower end torque of the 1.6. But they sure are rev happy.
Its been sitting so long that the registration has expired. I'll renew it and report my observations.
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Its running. ARP to the rescue. Its doesn't leak, and its had its hot re-torque. Boy, 1.5 motors sure sound different. They also don't have the lower end torque of the 1.6. But they sure are rev happy.
Its been sitting so long that the registration has expired. I'll renew it and report my observations.
its amazing the difference 100cc makes isnt it? my 1.6 was no fun compared to my 1.5
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Yah, Its must be all in the shorter stroke. Its really a whole different power band. Nothing on the bottom, but a good kick up high
I got to look in the all the Bentlies and see if there are rods to work with the 1.6TD pistons and 1.5 crank. I'd like to find out what longer rods do to it. I got half a mind to get custom rods....
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i like the way the 1.5 powerband is. and i have a vnt also, and the vanes arent hooked up, so when it spools, it really spools hard. no vanes to smooth out the transition. my 1.6 would never have pulled as many RPMs as my 1.5 does. its completely different power too. the 1.6 has more characteristics of a traditional diesel, while the 1.5 kinda acts like a gas engine in a way.
im kinda curious to see how the 1.5 likes a K24 turbo instead? it spooled low and hard on the 2.0 i took it off.
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The k24 on mine is a little laggy. The way i have the boost pin, governor screw, and fuel screw set right now, it smokes like a tire fire at 12 PSI and shoots up to 1200 F EGT. Then the boost builds to 25 PSI, EGT drops and it really scoots to redline.
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my vnt was laggy too, so nothings gonna be new. never had the vanes hooked up tho.
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I discovered new twist. In a hard right turn I'm getting oil up the crank case vent hose. Must be that oil sloshes to the left side of the pan, hit the crank and then goes up the tube and into the motor.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0055.jpg)
I did it a couple of times and verified the phenom. It occurred on a freeway off ramp posted for 20MPH taken at 40MPH. The line to the boost gauge has allot of oil in it too. I'm going to remove the hose and cap the barb.
I suppose it vents the crank case better. But if you drive 'em like you stole 'em, you'll get a good dose of oil in your intake, and a little surprise when you up-shift coming out of the corner. ;)