VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: SDTS on April 22, 2014, 05:45:04 pm
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Two weeks ago I bought a Golf Mk2 with a 1y 1.9D engine, planning to convert it to mtdi later on. But last week it developed the well known cranck pulley problem, sooner than I hoped. So now I quickly need to replace the engine, but I have only 1 or 2 days to do this, and the only engine I can get is a complete 1z tdi engine from a Mk3, I'm picking it up tomorrow. So with only limited time to do the swap I was thinking of putting in the 1z engine, with turbo, using the 1y 020 transmission, and the 1y pump.
Will the engine run using the 9mm 1,9 IDI NA pump, or is this impossible?
I know that it probably won't have a lot of power, but this would be only a temporary setup. When I have more time in a few weeks to do it right I will build a proper mtdi pump and swap in the 02A transmission, but right now I just need something to get to work the next couple of weeks.
Dennis
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I don't think the 1Y pump will work well with the 1Z. It will have a smaller pump head that won't make as much pressure nor will it deliver as much fuel. The DI engines need fuel injected over a fairly short duration compared to the IDIs.
It will probably be enough to start the engine, but it will be totally gutless.
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Okay, so I will probably have to make the electrical tdi pump to work for now. The engine comes with wiring and ecu, but what else would be needed to make it work? I know I need the ignition key for the immobiliser, but do I also need the gauge cluster and electrical speedometer pickup? And if needed, will the electical pickup fit the 020 gearbox?
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it will run but be very slow, but perhaps you could handle that until you can find a land rover pump to swap on?
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Over here the 1Z does not have an immobilizer. I'm not sure if you can run it without the cluster or not, probably though since a gas cluster will work (which means your diesel one probably will)
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The 1y runs again after replacing the crank pulley and bolt, so now i've got a little more time to prepare for the swap if it keeps running. I picked up the 1z yesterday, and it is missing a few parts that are needed for the etdi, like the ignition key, accelerator pedal and gauge cluster, and I don't like the electronic control anyway, so it will become a mtdi.
So now I'm thinking of making a mtdi pump by combining an aaz pump and the tdi pump, or making it an NA DI engine, using the 1y pump with tdi camplate and 10mm plunger, if that is possible. For me reliability and fuel economy are much more important than power, I was satisfied with the 1Y engine, so if it makes the same power/torque and is a little more efficient I would be happy.
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Ahhh imo you will never be happy with franken pump vs a rover 300 pump... Itswhy tdi m has bad name... Rover pump is proven to be cake no bs set up...
Next... 1z and pre 99.5 jetta, passat tdi do not need instrument clusters or keys.... Just go pedal... Now if u used a 2000+ tdi.. You do... But yours too old.... Think vnt = issues with alarm...
My rover pump supplier still not made trip back to uk to get more... His next batch will cost more as i am going to show him how to unbuild pumps, bag
label things so i can reseal them prior to new buyer...
Phone fkup there...
I am also going to try and get some rear mounts cnc made for the swap along with throttle linkage so the next set of rover pumps will be resealed, have stuff premade for bolt in ease... But pump price will be around 1k shipped...
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I do not ship to canada though.... Hate customs as they steal loose things too often, i cannot eat lost items due too customs
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I do not ship to canada though.... Hate customs as they steal loose things too often, i cannot eat lost items due too customs
I have never ever had that experience getting stuff shipped here for what it's worth. Most packages arrive unopened provided the documentation is done properly. Ship via USPS, insured - that takes care of absolutely everything for you and provides the lowest cost 'to the door' price for the receiver while protecting you if anything goes missing.
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Maybe there is a difference between European and US tdi's, but over here the 1z does have an immobiliser, so without the key the ecu is useless. You can however have the ecu reprogrammed to work without a key, so that isn't really a big problem. With reliability being most important I like m-tdi, of m-sdi in this case better, so that is what it is going to be for now.
So now I'm thinking to combine the 1y and tdi pump to make an m-sdi, so without turbo, and maybe later convert an AAZ pump, or use a Rover pump, and put the turbo back on.
With rover pump you mean from a land rover? Which type would that be, and do the pumps fit without a custom bracket or pump pulley? Maybe there is something for sale around here, or in the junkyards.
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Land Rover Defender 200TDI or 300TDI. If 300TDI make sure it is from a manual transmission vehicle - many of the automatic 300TDIs have an electronic pump like a TDI. The pumps are fairly common on eBay and will probably be available in the wreckers around there too. You're looking for a mid-90s vehicle.
The IP bracket does need to be modified - the Rover pumps have a larger pump snout, same size as an ALH pump. I just dropped my pump and the factory bracket off at a local machine shop, they opened up the hole in the bracket to match the pump and had it ready for me the next day.
I strongly recommend getting an ALH IP pulley and hub, it makes setting the timing sooooo much easier. If you try to use the 1Z pulley you will need to modify the pump itself as it doesn't have slotted mounting holes for adjustment. The 1Z pump had slotted mounting holes and you would rotate the pump in the bracket to get the timing right like the older diesels. It is a big huge pain in the butt, plus you have to grind away at your expensive injection pump to be able to do that with the Rover pump.
If you do go with the ALH IP pulley you will need to get the 'hump' machined off of the pulley to have it fit behind the 1Z timing cover. Again not a big deal for a machine shop to do.
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I think I will try to make a relatively simple mTDI pump. I have collected some pumps I can use for this purpose:
mk3 10mm TDI pump, for the pump head and plunger:
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/10mmtdi_zps2e2fb264.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/10mmtdi_zps2e2fb264.jpg.html)
mk3 GTD 9mm AAZ pump, with real LDA inside, starwheel and everything, never seen that on an AAZ:
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/9mmAAZ_zps7f51298a.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/9mmAAZ_zps7f51298a.jpg.html)
mk3 electronic AAZ pump, is complete, just dissasembled
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/AAZelect_zps9297937b.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/AAZelect_zps9297937b.jpg.html)
1Y pump 8mm, still on the engine in the mk2
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/1yEngineBay_zps2b397197.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/1yEngineBay_zps2b397197.jpg.html)
Fully mechanical AAZ pump, from a mk3 vento, in my mk1, could be swapped for another pump if neccesary, car will be sold.
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/AAZenginebay_zps77c1d510.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/AAZenginebay_zps77c1d510.jpg.html)
1.6D pump from a mk1, complete but disassembled
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/8mm16D_zpse2b32425.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/8mm16D_zpse2b32425.jpg.html)
So I was thinking of simply using the AAZ pump from the second picture and swapping in the TDI camplate and pump head. I probably will make the TDI NA, so without turbo for reliabilty and economy, but maybe in the future I may decide to put the turbo back on, so a LDA would be nice, but not absolutely neccesary.
Anyone got any tips or thing I am missing? Would this setup run acceptable, or are things more complicated than I think they are?
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I would think you would want to take the advance section out of the TDI pump as well.
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I would think you would want to take the advance section out of the TDI pump as well.
^^^ What he said...
The TDI engines really need their advance as the combustion chamber only really exists at TDC (unlike an IDI where it is always sealed in the head). As soon as the piston starts going down its bowl is no longer in the spray of the injectors. They've got a deeper advance cap which allows the advance piston to slide further, not sure about other internal differences with the pump body itself.
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Ok, thanks, tonight I will take the heads off of the AAZ and TDI pump, and swap them and the advance piston. I will take some pictures of what is inside.
I've never taken a TDI pump apart, so I don't really know wat I'm going to find inside, but I suspect the advance piston doesn't have the pin for the cold start lever (KSB), I think this is not requiresd on a TDI?
I've been reading a bit about mtdi pumps on this forum, and some are talking about a modified governor spring assembly or something? Is this absolutely neccesary, or will the AAZ governor be allright?
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Read the faq section, I think it's on 2nd page, if you want to stay with VW stuff, you have to do some mods to the control lever as the stroke of the control collar needs to be different than any of the pumps you have.
That is why the rover pumps are so great. The camplate is good for the 11mm head it comes with and the control lever already has longer setup, better adjustment setup, etc. (but the lever is a bit different than the VW, or at least the one I have is)
Changing the contol lever looks pretty involved, with fine welding skills needed, as well as colbalt or carbide drill needed as the control lever is not just mild steel.
As for the AAZ governor, I've read others have used it with okay results with the modified control lever.
I didn't want to have to do any machining to the bracket, so I've basically done what you are thinking. I had a AAZ pump I basically pulled apart and put all the rover bits into it. I will be installing it this weekend to make sure it's going to work; as the housings are basically the same, only it has the longer timing cover, a better camplate and control lever. All seals were replaced doing the swap over as well. I will update if it works fine after this weekend.
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Tonight I took the pumps apart and swapped everything, but I didn't expect a problem with the contol lever, so I'll have to look into that and modify it next week if neccesary, the welding and drilling shouldn't be a problem.
Now I have an AAZ pump, with TDI advance mechanism, TDI camplate and 10mm plunger and pump head. Orther than that nothing changed.
I noticed a few things:
When I had the pumps apart, I notced the TDI has an extra spring pressing against the camplate from the inside the AAZ doesn't have, I hope that won't be a problem.
TDI inside:
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/TDIempty_zps61ab0a91.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/TDIempty_zps61ab0a91.jpg.html)
AAZ inside:
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/AAZEmpty_zpsa38e664d.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/AAZEmpty_zpsa38e664d.jpg.html)
Also, having the pumps apart the differece between camplates is clearly visible:
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/camplates_zpse8097026.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/camplates_zpse8097026.jpg.html)
TDI on the left, AAZ in the middle and 1,6 on the right.
TDI and AAZ both have 3mm lift, 1,6D has 2mm. Also the TDI has a much steeper slope on one side, so the AAZ camplate probably wouldn't have worked.
Luckily the 10mm pump head already had the holes for the conrol lever spring pre drilled, because there are no springs in the tdi pump, so that could have become a problem:
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/pumpheads_zps349f0d41.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/pumpheads_zps349f0d41.jpg.html)
The advance pistons and covers don't appear to differ very much, onlt the spring is different, double for AAZ, and a single, thicker spring in the TDI:
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/advancecaps_zpsaced2b34.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/advancecaps_zpsaced2b34.jpg.html)
when fitting the assembled pump, it turned out there is little room around the lda because of the fuel lines, but it is just enough for the fuel screw and out banjo fitting:
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/pumpfitted_zps771e3e69.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/pumpfitted_zps771e3e69.jpg.html)
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This week I finally had the time to swap in the 1Z engine.
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p521/dennisschiffelers/IMAG0096_zpsa7b1cac5.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/dennisschiffelers/media/IMAG0096_zpsa7b1cac5.jpg.html)
At the last minute I decided since I don't use a turbo I would better use the 1y pump instead of the aaz pump, because I know it is in very good condition. So I decided I would only swap the TDI camplate and 10mm head into the 8mm 1y pump, thinking it probably wouldn't work because of different advance mechanism and control lever, but giving it a try anyway. To my surpise it fired right up at the first try and idled very smooth, without adjusting anything. Then I went for a test drive and it ran great, even a little more power than the 1y engine.
Only thing is I now timed it by ear, because my timing gauge doesn't fit (m8 for IDI and m10 for TDI I think?). Also it sounds like the advance curve isn't exactly right. At idle it sounds allright, but at about 1500 rpm and about 2500 rpm it is a bit loud, as if it is running too advanced. Would placing the thicker tdi advance spring solve this?
Also, what would be a good figure to set the timing at? I read 1,3mm and that you should move the pump to the most advanced position to get to this number, but when I did that it sounded way too advanced from idle to 3000rpm. I'll probably modify my timing gauge to fit the TDI tonight, so it would be nice to have an idea of where about to set the basic timing.
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It'll be hard to time "by the numbers" since you have a do it yourself pump. You'll basically have to adjust till it sounds / acts right.
There are a lot of variables in the dynamic timing system. There is the case pressure regulator, the spring and whatever shims may be there. Adding shims will cause the advance curve to start later. A stiffer spring will make the curve come on slower. Heck even the timing cap is a variable as it determines the maximum deflection of the timing piston.
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I think I have got it close to perfect, tried some combinations of static advance and advance springs, caps and shims, and now it drives perfect. Only thing is somewhere along the testing and adjusting it suddenly does't return to idle like it used to, the rpm drops quickly to 1500 and from there it slowly drops to 900, instead of going straight to 900 like it used to. I can't imagine I disrupted something by just changing the timing springs, so could this have anything to do with timing, or could something be broken inside the pump?
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I have driven the car for about 600km the last few days without any problems, very satisfied with power and economy, but today something strange happened. I was driving home from work, 100km/h at 2500 rpm constant, and suddenly the car started to accelerate, so I depressed the clutch and rpm got to 3000 and stayed there. So I got off at the next exit, to see what was going on, couldn't see anything (it was dark, so I couldn't really have a good look), trottle lever works fine, so I backed out the fuel screw 1 turn, this got the idle down to 1000rpm. I got home, but the engine lacks power this way. When I shut the engine off, it kept running at about 200rpm, so I had to shut it down by letting the clutch go.
So tomorrow I'll have to see what is wrong, but where do I start? Could some spring or something have come loose, or something stuck in the governor?
Also the last few days the idle kept climbing to 1000rpm, every day I reset it to 800 using the idle screw, I think this also has something to do with it.
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Interesting problem.. The fact that it ran fan, and then all of the sudden had a idle hang issue. Very weird.
Just a little tip however, had that of been an oil caused run-away pushing the clutch in would have allowed it to red-line and likely blow up. Never push the clutch in when the engine is running away, ever.. Disastrous results may follow.
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Just a little tip however, had that of been an oil caused run-away pushing the clutch in would have allowed it to red-line and likely blow up. Never push the clutch in when the engine is running away, ever.. Disastrous results may follow.
Yes I thought of that before pushing in the clutch, but it wasn't accelerating very fast and still had some throttle response, so if rpm's would rise too much i figured I could let the clutch out again. If it started to run away, it would probably be time for a new engine anyway, so I could just as well let it happen if that was the case. Over here tdi's are very easy to find and very cheap compared to north america. I bought mine for 200 euros, including transmission, wiring, turbo and everything else.
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I got a whole donor car running and driving for 275 Euro ;) Canada is the same way as Europe though for VW diesel stuff.
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So I got the pump working perfectly and have been driving the m-sdi for 3000km now getting a constant 50mpg. But there is still one thing I would like to improve. The idle on my previous diesels felt much stronger, you could drive away just using the clutch and not touching the throttle. On this engine the idle feels more like a gasser and with every increase in load the idle drops, so the fan starting, switching the light on, or even the power steering drops the idle down quite a bit. Is there something I can adjust to get the idle to feel stonger? I have read a lot using the search on this forum, but couldn't find any way to make the idle more stable.
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Hello.
What's the news?
Do you the codes of the 8mm mechanical pump and of the 10mm electronic pump?
Is it possible to make the engine to run on a frunkenpump without levers cutting,drilling and welding?
Standard parts only.
The same power of a 1Y engine for a NA DI is enough for me too.
Thank you.
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SDTS, Sounds like you are right on the edge of the fuel screw keeping the engine running. Try turning it in by a 1/4 or 1/8 of a turn. Should increase the idle a very little. But more importantly it will get you that tiny bit of fuel earlier when you are playing the clutch or adding an electric load.
If that gets the idle up too high for you, like 1050 RPM then turn the idle adjustment screw on the back of the throttle arm to a setting that is more to your liking.