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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: fatmobile on December 14, 2019, 05:03:02 pm
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I'm working on the MTDI MK2 project.
It's time to play with the pump.
There's a lever on the pump that I haven't seen on any others.
After reading the MTDI FAQ thread it looks like it's not needed.
But it doesn't say how to get rid of it.
It does get in the way of the accelerator cable and generally clutters the place up.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219620572_3677dcd510_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZnqpN)
Should I just pull it out and cut the lever off the inside and trim down the lever on the outside?
On the old 1.6 pumps I always had to cut the nubs off the lid gasket
but the slots are wider on the landrover pump and it fit nice with the nubs.
I also need to swap the hub from the TDI to this pump.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49218918073_c2f7a91e4e_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZiPzK)
But as you can see the TDI hub has a small slot for the alignment pin to go into,
and the landrover pump has a large slot and uses a larger alignment pin.
I'm thinking i will just make the TDI hub slot as large as the landrover slot.
Is there a better plan?
Also wondering where to set this slot on the rover pump?
Use a dial gauge to set it to 154?
I'd like to use a MK2 accelerator arm and springs.
Has that been tried?
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To remove that extra lever, I have removed it, tapped the hole to NPT and threaded in an allen plug. What you propose would also work. That extra lever (if all is adjusted correctly) will reduce the puff of smoke at startup. That is all that it does.
If you want to be precise with the hub, then you could either cut the VW hub to match the larger hole or put a small bushing into the hole so it matches the VW hub. To install the hub, make sure the shaft keyway is aligned with the delivery valve for the #1 injector, make sure the dial indicator is rising as you turn CW, and when you arrive at the dial indicator setting you desire, lock the pump shaft with the side bolt. With the shaft locked, install the hub with the pin in place and tighten the hub nut. Whenever the pin fits should then equal the dial indicator reading you used previously. I think 1.40mm is a good baseline timing spec for the LR pump. You might want to adjust from there, though. Set to 12° BTDC at idle with the pulse adapter.
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I hadn't thought about plugging that hole with an NPT plug.
And filling the pin alignment hole in the front of the pump.
That might be easier than making the slot precisely bigger.
So take the dial indicator to it's lowest spot going counter clockwise.
Just like when it's on the car I'd push the car backwards until the dial gauge hits it's lowest spot.
Then turn it clockwise until it reaches 1.4mm.
Lock it in place with the allen head bolt on the side of the pump near the mainshaft:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49221007662_699b925268_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZuwK9)
Obvious, even through all that dirt.
After that the bolts on the sprocket get used for fine tuning?
I made a 12° BTDC mark on the flywheel.
Soooo use the short accelerator arm that came with it?
Or see if I can swap to the MK2 cable bracket and lever?
Thanks Andrew.
You went through some of this with me awhile ago.
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Yup, you've got all the main points. Just to reiterate, you need the shaft keyway pointing toward the #1 delivery valve when you're doing the process. From there you can rotate CCW to zero the gauge. I think you'll need a longer bolt with the same pitch to lock the shaft. Yup, fine timing is done by adjusting the alignment between the sprocket and the hub.
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Oh, so that allen head bolt gets pulled and a longer bolt gets used to lock the shaft.
I didn't get a chance to look at that today.
I got rid of the extra lever.
I tried to push it inward, take it out, and cut it.
But it runs into the LDA arm,..
as you can see in the first picture of this thread.
So I cut off the outside end with a cutoff wheel
which made it short enough.
Then cleaned up the edge and shoved it through.
The hole was almost too big to tap to 1/8" NPT but I think it will seal.
With that out of the way I should be able to use the 1.6 accelerator cable bracket.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49225869591_bfaf53f15f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZVs2v)
The whiteish paint shows what needs removed.
You can see the hole plugged below it.
I also got a chance to do the governor mod.
The MTDI FAQ thread suggested it works great with this pump.
But didn't really tell what kind of governor mod they did.
Here's how I do them:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49225386483_afac9239dd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZSYq4)
The spring gets removed and replaced by (in this case) 2 washers.
I tried one shim and there was some slop,
the spring wasn't under pressure.
Left to do are:
find hub swap bushing size.
Swap the TDI delivery valves to this pump.
Figure out best accelerator lever to use.
Set the hub on the mainshaft at 1.4mm.
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That all looks good to me.
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I got some more done with the pump.
For the rear mounting bracket I went with one from a MK1:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49255172348_48f66b729c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3vCHs)
There are holes in the metal high pressure head that are supposed to support the bracket.
The Land Rover pump had them in a different spot so the TDI bracket had little support.
The MK1 bracket didn't line up with the right holes either so I drilled them into the bracket.
Where the 2 allen bolts are.
To drill the right spot I screwed the pointy bolt into the hole and bolted the bracket on,..
then tapped it with a hammer to use it like a center punch.
To make the pointy bolt I put a bolt in the drill press and held a grinder up to it while it was spinning,..
then filed a couple flat spots so I could grip it.
I took some other pictures but they aren't showing up on the SD card.
So I'll just explain what I did on the other end.
First off the shaft locking bolt is 10M1 thread and needs to have at least 1 3/8" of threads.
I made a bushing to fill the alignment pin hole,
instead of grinding the hub slot to fit the pin.
I found a piece of about 3/8" aluminum rod and drilled the center to 15/64" on my cheesy 1945 altas lathe.
It seemed cleaner but I ended up having to grind the hub slot too.
Because the alignment pin hole on the TDI is up higher
so I had to grind the slot deeper to match the LR pump hole.
I locked the shaft at 1.4mm,.. my dial gauge isn't metric so I used .055".
Then cleaned and degreased the hub center and shaft before sticking them together with a nut.
Where that pin hole is on the LR pump also stands out farther
so the 3 TDI sprocket mounting bolts hit the pump.
I broke out the bolt shortener but probably could have removed some from the pump.
Only talking about 1/8".
The TDI pump is bolted on from the timing belt side.
So it's threaded.
The LR pump isn't tapped.
I installed 8M1.25 helicoils.
The hole was almost too big to use a helicoil but I think it will work.
On the top of the pump I used the LR accel lever and spring setup.
I think the LR pump uses the tall bushing like the MK2.
So I think the MK2 accel lever and spring setup would work but I didn't have one to try.
The ball the MK1 and MK2 accel cable snaps to fits the LR lever with a little drilling.
But I might still weld a piece of early adjustable bracket to the end.
Having the cable attach farther from the center
means small movement of the foot moves the lever less.
Might not be as sensitive to movement.
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Since the pin sits lower I had to mill out a little from the sprocket slot
so the pin could be inserted with the sprocket on.
The timing belt and transmission are on.
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I used a 1.6 rear pump plate on my ALH mTDI (LR pump). I drilled the extra holes also, but I think they probably aren't even necessary. The 2 corner bolts and the mount bolt triangulate the plate nicely without the added allen bolts.
I ground the pump case to prevent the stock sprocket bolts from hitting it.
I tapped the 3 LR pump mounting holes to M10. The M10 bolts fit fine through the timing belt backing plate and the accessory bracket.
It wouldn't be a bad thing to get a new serp belt tensioner. I didn't replace the one on my mTDI ALH and it seized, shredded the belt and lots of belt pieces got wrapped around the crank.
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I'll check the price of a new tensioner,..
or see if Bill changed that when he did the timing belt.
Was that 10 M 1 you tapped the pump mounting holes?
Or something courser?
I'm going to have to get new sprocket bolts anyway.
So I might cut the pump down for clearance now and in the future.
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On the m10 bolts I used I don't recall offhand what pitch they were although I believe they were typical coarse (1.5). It was 6-1/2 years ago that I did it and those details got purged from my RAM.
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Oh, I have a 10M1, for temps sensors etc.
I'll have to get a coarse one for the next MTDI build.
I'll probably use long 8x 1.25 bolts in the top two holes,
using the helicoil.
I will back them up with nuts on the top 2,..
because that would be easy to do.
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If you would like to avoid the heli-coils, your heli-coil outside thread is probably m10 x 1.25 (or the holes could easily be tapped to that). Bolts of that thread should be available at most hardware stores and will fit through the bracket holes. The heli-coils are probably fine, though, and the added nut is a good belt + suspenders.
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The plug (shown in post #4 of this thread ) I put in place of the lever was a leaker.
So I put it in with JB weld and now it doesn't.
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Took it into town for the first time today.
It has plenty of power.
Enough to slip the clutch when launching,.. I know the wheels weren't spinning but something was.
This 1.9 is a little much for the 020 trany
so a slipping clutch will probably keep me from breaking it
before I install an 02A.
Still very driveable.
Only problem is the RPMs like to hang.
Rev it up and they don't go back down very quickly.
Just kinda hang there, and if the clutch is in; the RPMs climb.
I've moved the accelerator lever on the shaft a few times.
Pretty sure this is where it should be.
Have moved the max fuel screw in and out while playing with the spline settings.
Does it even when moved in and gutless.
I might have to go through the injectors.
Probably run some diesel purge through it first.
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Went to run some diesel purge through it.
Used really clear lines instead of the old "tinted" ones in there.
Started it up and ran it for awhile,.. until all the air was out of the lines.
Shut it off, let it sit, start it again and I see bubbles coming from the pump.
Let it run awhile and I see no bubbles going into the filter.
None coming out of the filter.
But a steady stream of tiny air bubbles coming from the pump,
want to call it foam because they are so numerous and small
but it's not enough to call foam.
Looks like a bad mainshaft seal.
I shut it off and looked for an air bubble to come out the front of the pump;
none.
Probably because the pump is so tilted air would have to go down to get out.
I did see air in the line coming off the input banjo,
going to the vacuum gauge. It is above the banjo.
What size seal do I need?
Is this a 19mm shaft?
I've heard other mention a 20mm shaft.
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LR mainshaft is 20mm. That seal comes in the turbo-diesel seal kit. I can get the kit number if you need it. Also potential culprits could be the copper inlet washers or the pressure regulator o-ring. It also seems like the angle of the pump and inlet banjo might result in a small amount of air being trapped and purging slowly.
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I already sealed the rest of the pump so I don't need a full kit.
The pump number is:
0 460 414 136
I'll give that to the local bosch guy and see if he can get me just the seal.
Not a hard seal to fix.
I can keep it on the car.
I'll put some fluid on top of the pressure regulator, see if it gets sucked in.
No seaps around the copper washers.
I could grease it up and see what happens.
I tried the test several times.
Running it until the air bubbles were small "fog" in the lines.
Shut it off, let it sit, come back and start it again.
Comes out pretty clear at first then larger bubbles and back to a slight fog.
I think I gave it time to purge any normal air in the lines.
There has also been white smoke.
I thought maybe the timing was retarded or maybe a bad injector.
But air in the fuel will cause white smoke.
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Changed the mainshaft seal.
Got rid of the air exiting the pump.
Runs better but still white smoke, hanging RPMs but not as bad and
I'm noticing an unburnt diesel smell.
Better pull the injectors.
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Now that you may have the proper internal pressure going don't forget to double-check that timing. It could be off now. Advanced is as bad as retard for smoke.
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I time it with a pulse detector and timing light.
Since I had to pull the belt and sprocket to install the mainshaft seal.
I just got done retiming it to 12 BTDC.
After reading the recent FAQ posts about MTDI pumps;
I'm not sure the internal pump pressure is high enough.
I was going by the 1.6 pump pressure.
It looks like Landrover pump might run at about double that.
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I have been wondering about internal pressure on my IP. I tapped the regulator down a while ago and got better performance but it still lacks some on the bottom end. I have a KO3 turbo on my 1.6l Caddy.
I was trying to find time to pull the line off the outbolt and fill a liter bottle and get a better idea about delivery. I used to have an adapter that went on as an outbolt but I broke it and haven't had the torch and solder to put it together again. Sounds like a Humpty Dumpty problem.
I do know that getting the proper IP internal pressure is key to proper advance. So we may see 12 BTDC on our equipment but when we put the boost on it just isn't there like it should be. I dare not set it up and try timing it under boost conditions. I will have it flying off the jack stands with my luck, at 4000 RPMs.
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Not sure if I mentioned this but,
the engine came from a vegy burning Jetta.
He was filtering/filling the tank with vegetable oil and saw a gloop of water go into the tank.
Shut it off.
Didn't think much about it.
Until the engine stopped.
Plunger seized in the injection pump,
ripped the pin right off.
Didn't mess up the engine but it sat for a long while after that,,...
with vegy,. and maybe water in the injectors.
aaand that's how you get a complete engine with a bad pump for $400.
I should bump up the internal pressure to the specs
listed in the MTDI FAQ thread page 12.
"It is sufficient to perform measurements at 1000 rpm and at 4000 rpm.
The pressure at 1000 rpm of the ENGINE should be about 5.5 bar, at 4000 rpm-9 ... 10 bar."
5.5 bar is 79.77psi so I have that at about 2000 RPM instead of 1000 like it's supposed to.
EDIT: Bosch service center guy said these specs are way too high and could crack the pump.
79.77psi @ is probably double what it should be at 1000 engine RPM.
So you're right. I should bump that up and recheck the timing
and see if it fixes the problem before I change injectors.
I'm still hoping they survived it but,..
not optimistic.
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Progress report:
I bumped the internal pressure up.
That didn't stop the white smoke and hanging RPMs.
Checked my injectors with the old 1.6 injector tester.
Kent Moore brand.
2 pissers. 2 that popped/sprayed nice..
672 stock nozzles for an automatic.
706 are stock nozzles for a manual car.
So I bought a set of used injectors from manual cars.
Actually a couple sets.
One set from a local guy, the #4 was banged up,
1 and 2 were great, couldn't get them to pee,
broke at about 2900psi.
Number 3 peed a little if I pushed slow then popped at about 2700.
The 2nd set,... well the second set I got ripped off he said they had 85,000 miles.
They were total pissers, he even had one apart and didn't tighten it back together.
Who takes good injectors apart? He knew they were junk/cores.
I have a paypal grievence with him.
The third set had 2 great ones that popped at 2900,
another one that popped at 3000 that wouldn't pee.
..and a #3 that pee/popped at about 2500.
I swapped in the best number 3 which popped at 2700.
The rest pop at 2900 or 3000.
I know these numbers are all low for a TDI.
So far the same results.
White smoke and hanging/climbing RPMs.
I have a new set of injectors coming.
Kerma recommended the DLC520s.
I'll have them in soon and see if that solves the problem.
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Thanks for the update. Here's hoping the injectors cure the issue.
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Got the new ones in today.
Still hanging and white smoke.
I tried turning the max fuel screw out and idle in.
That hasn't helped.
The idle is up higher than in the original pictures of the pump.
I'm not sure what to do next.
I tried disconnecting the boost line in case it was an LDA issue.
That didn't help.
Other than that, the boost controller is working pretty good.
EGTs don't go over 1200F.
Boost climbs nice.
If I floor it at 55mph, the clutch slips.
I don't see that as a bad thing.
I knew I'd need a beafier clutch, it slipping probably saves my trany.
I'll try pulling the top off the pump and take a look.
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I wonder... what about delivery valves? I had one 1.6TD injection pump that smoked white until I swapped the delivery valves. Just a thought. I assume you checked the timing after installing the new injectors as a change in break pressure will change the timing.
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Thanks Andrew,
I did check the timing it was still at 12BTDC.
The breaking pressure was around 3200 on all the new ones
and of course no pissing just pop.
I didn't think about the delivery valves.
Hadn't even concidered them.
They are different than the ones in the 1.6 right?
If so I don't think I have any others to swap in.
Gave the TDI pump (and pieces) back to the guy I got the engine from.
Not sure what happens on the TDI when it's 180 out.
Sometimes the 1.6s will still run and smoke white.
I was thinking the cam might be 180 out,
because you can still fit the cam locker in place
even if it is 180 out.
That wasn't it.
Maybe I put the hub or inside pin 180 out.
Doesn't look like it.
I have the pump out now,
I'll probably take it up to the local Bosch service center
get some ideas from him
probably have him bench test it.
He has always been very helpful.
We've both had this happen before.
Usually when we reset the splines and accelerator lever
then turn the max fuel screw up higher than usual.
RPMs hang until the brake or higher gear drags them down
then they are fine at idle.
It just hits that lower RPM and settles back down.
This time when it hits probably 2500 it will actually accelerate instead of hanging.
It's always been injectors pissing, timing retarded or I played with the max fuel screw.
It'll be fun to figure this one out.
I feel like I'll know more about the pumps when I do.
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I tried a few things.
Made it so I could adjust the allen screw near the timing belt,
while it was running.
Cut an allen wrench glued it in and removed some off the bracket.
That didn't help.
I took the lines and sprocket off.
Powered it up and watched to see what port it was coming from.
It was hitting the right ports,
kinda seemed like some was dribbling from the wrong ports, maybe.
Took it to the local bosch service center
and am bumping this post so he can find it.
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Bump because you left us hanging a month ago.
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Whaa I just updated it in the post before yours.
He called me today.
The hub seems to be brittle.
He removed it to put it on the machine.
When he went to put it back on somehow was using the sprocket mounting holes to hold it in place and the thing cracked.
We can all learn from others mistakes.
He ordered a new hub and I should have it back soon.
He couldn't tell me why the RPMs kept hanging.
He also put the old lever back into it.
He of course couldn't tune it to TDI specs because they are in milivolts or something.
Probably should be tuned to the specs of the AAZ pump.
Anyone have pump numbers for that one?
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Bosch service center guy said my internal pump pressure was way too high and could crack the pump.
79.77psi @ is probably double what it should be at 1000 engine RPM.
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Bosch service center guy said my internal pump pressure was way too high and could crack the pump.
79.77psi @ is probably double what it should be at 1000 engine RPM.
I wonder if that is a discrepancy between crank rpm and pump rpm (1/2 crank).
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Might be.
Here's the quote from reply#22 in this post.
Copied some from the M-TDI pump info thread:
"It is sufficient to perform measurements at 1000 rpm and at 4000 rpm.
The pressure at 1000 rpm of the ENGINE should be about 5.5 bar, at 4000 rpm-9 ... 10 bar."
5.5 bar is 79.77psi so I have that at about 2000 RPM instead of 1000 like it's supposed to.
So it's supposed to be close to what the 1.6 uses.
About half that.
Glad I didn't crack the pump.
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What? Why am I confused?
In reply #32 you state your IP pressure of 5.5 bar is twice what it should be. Then in Reply #34 you say you have 5.5 bar at 2000 RPM instead of at 1000 RPM.
A lower RPM would equal lower pressure at idle, yes? So is your idle pressure 3.5 and the higher 2000 RPM is 5.5? This isn't making logical sense to me.
But then somethings never do.
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That whole section is a repost from post #22.
When I was reading specs from the MTDI info thread.
I brought it back, reposted it as wrong.
Wasn't as clear as I could have been.
Thanks for pushing me to clear that up.
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Got the pump back.
The RPMs still hang, it doesn't seem to climb as much just hangs..
He mostly dealt with things inside the pump.
Nothing with the high pressure head.
Something weird I noticed:
When I was priming the pump with a vacuum pump on the "OUT" banjo, it wouldn't prime.
I heard a hissing and it was coming from one of the delivery valves.
I pulled the cap and I could prime the pump if I covered the delivery valve with my finger.
Turned the pump 90 degrees and it did the same thing on the next delivery valve.
Even weirder yet, it was number 4 (bottom left) that was sucking in air when the pump and engine were set at #1 (top right).
There was no power to the pump.
I haven't noticed this before.
I don't know if it was because I always had the injector lines on before I primed the pump.
Or maybe the screw-on caps sealed the delivery valves.
Hard to believe after all the pumps I've primed this way that this would be normal and I wouldn't have seen it happen before.
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I haven't seen that before either although I typically install the lines onto the delivery valves (loose at the injectors) before priming the pump.
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I'll try powering it up and turning it with a wrench and see if it's still pushing out fuel on #1 when it's at TDC.
Because it's weird that it leaks on 4 when the engine is at 1.
Also wondering if the plunger might be bad and air/fuel is leaking past it.
Has been a couple time that I shut it off and it didn't shut off right away.
Also times when I rev it and it kills just stops.
Thought it might be that butterfly in the intake shutting,.. but reved it in the engine bay and it killed
but that didn't move.
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Did you find any resolution to your pump issues? It sounds like it was running pretty well aside from the odd running condition issues with revving it just killing it outright. There seems to be some internal issue going on without a doubt I'd guess.
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I'm putting a timing belt on a 2003 TDI.
I'm going to swap this pump onto that engine and see if the problems move with it.
I can't see how these problems could be caused by the engine but
this should rule it out.
I see I haven't posted the numbers on the pump.
Sometimes I wonder if it's a left handed pump.
Here's a pic of the plunger next to the 1.6 plunger.
I can see all the way through the holes on the end.
Flicker is upgrading or something.
I'll post them later.
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I put the pump in the 03 TDI Jetta wagon,..
and it did the same thing in.
I put it back in the Golf and swapped delivery valves.
Still had hanging RPMs.
I'll post the pump numbers.
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Well, that was a good test. It pinpoints the pump as the issue.
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Bought a pump from Andrew Libby.
It's spinning tires and burning clutches like it should.
Runs great.
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Excellent!
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Took it into town today.
Idle is a little high.
That's an easy to fix.
I usually bring a toolbox on the maiden voyage but tools are spread all over between projects right now.
I'm taking it easy for the first thousand,.. hard as that is.
Breaking in the pump nice.
Got boost up to 15 and EGTs to 1100 for a short bit.
I think the boost controller is doing pretty good but more boost might be needed.