VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: oldskool rich on June 11, 2008, 12:08:54 pm
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i cud do with a hand, dont understand what sum things are and i dont know what i need and dont need, if sumone whos built one can point me in the right direction that wud be great.
Jimfoo has already helped me alot, i understand you need the cam plate and springs off a tdi and obviously the bigger the pump piston the better.
then i get a bit confused after that
this on my aaz pump, what is it? do i need it?
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180250.jpg)
this is on my tdi pump, what is it? do i need it? if i dont have it will it mess up the ecu?
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180252.jpg)
this sping sum how advances the timing on the tdi, how exactly does this work? im guessing i need this on the M-TDI pump?
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180251.jpg)
is there anything else i need to do?
also can you buy 12mm pump piston/ head? if so how much and where from?
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also made sum engine progress, PD pistons are in, just waiting for the pd crank to be machined to fit a 1Z pully, new barings all round and ive got one very strong bottom end 8)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2170240.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2170242.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2170241.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2170245.jpg)
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i cud do with a hand, dont understand what sum things are and i dont know what i need and dont need, if sumone whos built one can point me in the right direction that wud be great.
Jimfoo has already helped me alot, i understand you need the cam plate and springs off a tdi and obviously the bigger the pump piston the better.
then i get a bit confused after that
this on my aaz pump, what is it? do i need it?
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180250.jpg)
Leave it hooked to power when running.
this is on my tdi pump, what is it? do i need it? if i dont have it will it mess up the ecu?
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180252.jpg)
Put the parts in the AAZ pump to make an M-TDI pump. So that way you won't need to worry about that part.
this sping sum how advances the timing on the tdi, how exactly does this work? im guessing i need this on the M-TDI pump?
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180251.jpg)
is there anything else i need to do?
also can you buy 12mm pump piston/ head? if so how much and where from?
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the white bosch plugy thing wont fit in the aaz pump, there is simply no where for it to go, i want to know if i need it, what it does and if the ecu can live without it, the other metal switchy thing on a pipe, just curious what it actualy does, its not connected to power on my aaz, and just wonderd why it exists?
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My big question, why care about ECU on mtdi? isn't the point of MTDi, that here is no ecu?
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im a little confused, so there is no need for any ecu what so ever,
what does the ecu normaly control?
what about knock sensor, lambda sensor ect
i wanted to run everyting standard apart from the cable throttle and have an LDA, isnt it possible to still have an ecu, or is the tdi pump like the heart of it all?
sorry if i sound a bit dum, im new to all this tdi stuff, i always thort that there was loads of electrics involved, didnt know exactly what was ment by m-tdi
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no...you do not need an ECU for a mTDI motor...hence "m" in TDI standing for "mechanical" ...so a non-ECU/ECM controlled, non-electronic pump. You could retain items from the AAZ pump such as electronic cold start (or from another pump)...but nothing ECU wise is need. The only real connection you need is for the fuel stop solenoid (switch 12v) on the pump head...
Joe
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Normally the TDI has all sorts of electronics because it runs an electronic pump, thus needing the MAF and the lambda sensor etc.
There's really no major differences between an IDI and a TDI engine except how they inject. They both us the same basic idea when pumping fuel, the electronics with the TDI tend to make it run "better", but we all know wiring's a ***.
so you're basically taking the IDI parts, slapping them on the TDI, so you don't have to have ANY electronics except for what an IDI would normally run.
all of the timing done inside the pump on an IDI is mechanical, all the timing done inside a TDI is electronic. Thus why it's an mTDI.
so you need your mechanical pump, with some parts from the TDI pump because of the way the TDI needs its fuel injected. Which is where your camplate, springs, and pump-head come in. TDI likes its fuel fast, so the camplate has an aggressive ramp-up to get it into the engine quickly.
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Actually...its not as easy as just "slapping" IDI parts into a IDI pump to have a good setup.
The following needs to be considered and/or modified...
-IDI advance timing mech is "not enough" for a mTDI setup. mTDI's like their timing advance and the timing advance needs to be modified accordingly. The TDI mech is an improvement....but still is not enough. There are several threads on here about timing advance as well as different methods for changing "total" advance.
-IDI gov. control lever DOES NOT have enough travel for use in a DI mechanical pump. The internal housing of the pump as well as the lever needs to be modified to allow for more total travel if you want to pull max power out of your pump. Otherwise, it'll always be lukewarm at 50% of its possible power when turned up.
-There are also a few other governor considerations and modifications to take into account as well...however, starting with the AAZ pump you'll have a few less obstacles in one way...but then the worry about pump shaft size when it comes to high power, etc. Though...comments on busted pump shafts are still far and few in between what what I have seen.
You can slap IDI parts into the pump and make it work on a DI motor...but, it'll never run completely correct, have the correct timing advance, etc. without some more work. Also, it will never put out its full potential efficiently with a 12mm head. You (as has been said) loose a bit of efficient in leaving the electronics in the first place when going mTDI. An essentially IDI pump with a few DI parts will net you even more loss in efficiency and power unless the above is considered.
12mm heads are readily available from several pump applications out there. Namely, Cummins pumps from the 4bt seems to be a popular source. Beware of new heads on the market...some are 12mm heads that you can get "new" for a really cheap price but take a look at how poruous the metal is on them, there camplates, plungers and you'll find they are chinese heads. There have been several failures and "leaks" that have occured thanks to them. Even busted plungers and camplates! Get a good...used or if you can find them..."new" Bosch head :)
Joe
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building a mtdi pump is a bastard compared to a 1.6 1.9 td . i am no expert i have been building or trying for the last 2 years ,i have got them running ok but power wise only 60% its a bit of a black art , but the guys above are the kings off the Mtdi pumps , i wished i just got a pump from them in the first place save a lot off greef my $2 worth
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ok point taken, since im in a rush to complete this car i might stick with the electric pump, can these be tuned? if i add a 12mm pump piston will that help?
how much power will i see with a big vnt?
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-clarify "big VNT" (I see your looking for a GT20? Is that for this car?)
-If you want to use electronics...thats cool, but the 12mm pump head upgrade won't do it alone. Def. not the "pump piston" alone. The pump piston and hydraulic head need to match and be considered one unit. Additionally, you need a camplate profile that will make use and be matched to the hydraulic head your running (and yet the same profile for the advance curve of the engine your using it on.
- You'll have to have the ECM tuned to acct for the increase in fueling and your injector nozzles will need to be much larger (as mentioned before .260 plus) to get the power your looking for (from another thread)
-Your tuning will depend on what ECM you have...the earlier...the harder to tune *and in some cases...can't be "re-chipped" if I remember correctly short of some soldering coming into play*.
Giving out power numbers is hard to do without having these items in place and exactly what your looking to run. *i.e. I have a 12mm pump, Race 520 nozzles (.263+) bar'd to XXX, xyz turbo running x psi, etc. etc*
Joe
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ok so the ECM needs tuning that doesnt sound too hard, i can get a 12mm pump piston, i have a cam plate off an 11mm pump, thats as close as i can get, .260 nozzles and and a VNT 20
whats the best i can hope for?
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The easy part for a person who has good skill in mechanics is to make enough work from the lever to the control collar on the plunger, more the came plate is aggressive, more work that need. (came plate lift have nothing to do with the fueling)
The hard part is to get the correct timing curve, what the engine request VS what the pump can allow, but there are no tool to monitor the timing you want, It's try and error test on the road.
Even if you put a 12mm head on a electronic pump, the pump need to be rework to give the requested timing, playing with harder regulator.
Here an example of 12mm head on E pump:
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/346/log2bd8.th.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=log2bd8.jpg)
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ok so now i see why people say just take a cable operated tdi pump off a different car. this all sounds extreamly hard, now i see how giles can charge that much for a custom pump
will any pumps off other cars fit straight on? also can the camplate and pp be changed for vw ones?
i just wana make life easy for myself tbh :lol:
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Its too hard to try and give an accurate estimate based on even that information provided...if I had to...maybe in the neighborhood of 200+...maybe less/maybe more. You tuning for a mechanical pump and/or the pump tuning and ECM tuning for the eTDI will be one of the biggest determining factors. If they aren't built to work with each other....you'll lose somewhere. You can push all the fuel in the world and if the motor isn't built to support it...then it just won't work.
For instance...if you stayed mTDI then you'd have to come up with another electronic solution (several have been theorized and/or suggested here) or mechanical control for the VNT20 that you are mentioning using... with the eTDI pump...that wouldn't be a problem, but the ECM would need to be seriously remapped in order to make the most of things and there are internal considerations as well that TinTin already mentioned. I don't think there is a "quick" alternative to "max" power to make life easier on yourself other than buying someone elses setup that has already put the work into it .
Joe
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The screw on the back of the pump does not have anything to do with "throttle power" Its simple fuel power/fuel enrichment...so not even really part of the discussion.
"Bending" the speed control is not what is done to achieve the corrected travel of the gov. control mech. I'm not sure where that was mentioned...but the modification to the speed control lever involves work on the internal housing of the pump as well as to the case housing itself.
What are you talking bout with increasing the high end of the throttle (huh?) with a camplate/shim spacer? Plunger shim thickness at the end of the plunger/camplate assembly is crucial for the proper operation of the pump...many pump heads and plungers have been seized for running an improper shim or not including the shim whatsoever. So how is removing the shim going to increase "high end throttle". High end RPM power will be more controlled by proper gov. setup combined with proper advance and fueling. Its not a one or the other sort of thing.
Longer spring and custom spring seat where? That same timing advance discussion (if regarding that) has been discussed before, so its not anything new. Proper timing advance on a mTDI pump involves working with and/or modifying the correct piston for max travel (10+degrees) as well as spring and cover considerations. If you want there is a fairly nicely detailed thread on modifying advance covers on IDI motors for more advance...but thats not the only place to start.
Probably the reason that such parts and a procedure doesn't exist is because someone will end up making money off of it based on others discoveries. The guys that do them, do them for a living (i.e. Giles namely on here....) and do them quite nicely and gurantee their work. Others (Tin-Tin, Karl Mullendore) have just as good pumps and know just as much inside and out but probably don't want to share "all" the info for that reason.
12mm pump head/rotor/plunger assemblies aren't required for a mTDI...but it depends on the power output you want. Wahoo that a 10mm pump head will net you over 100hp...but if you read on with the original post and post connected to the poster's original plan...he is looking for numbers in excessive of 200hp. For that...11mm or a 12mm head will be needed. If you want stock or slightly above stock levels...I'd say with the correctly sized nozzles, etc. 10mm will support 150hp but will be hurting above that in different areas.
All depends on what your looking for.
Joe
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In my opinion the 12mm head rotor is the best for a M-TDI swap in a heavier truck which does not have need to be powerful for race but torque needed for low end.
As for the M-pump, I think I have given much info on how to built it, in several post and I repeated several times the same thing.
However I think that the time is come to had just revised my old posts............
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these seem quite common in the UK will this or any parts fit?
can it be modified? the guy tells me that this pump is the same for tdi as td, is that possible?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180253989737&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38%26_nkw%3D180253989737%26_fvi%3D1
ive searched every breakers yard in the UK and the 2.8 LT 99-2000 doesnt seem to exist apart from a complete engine for £1600 :cry:
running out of options, i get my shell next week and still nothing anywhere near an engine to drop in :roll:
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The pump on Ebay is a Bosch Zexel, Zexel have only 2 hole bolting flange and It's low quality pump. dont touch.
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Try to find a 1.9L Fiat TDid pump, It's the better and cheap pump for a M-tdi, you can modified it later, I think Its easy to find one of this pump, I already see several of them on Ebay.fr, de, be...... etc.
It's 11mm head rotor and 20mm main shaft.
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If the rover are really a ''T''DI 4 cyl motor, look at this pump:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ERR6700-LANDROVER-300TDI-DIESEL-INJECTOR-PUMP_W0QQitemZ380036856754QQihZ025QQcategoryZ31348QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Here It's a 12mm pump:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/renault-master-fuel-pump-diesel-van_W0QQitemZ220245608289QQihZ012QQcategoryZ10410QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
etc.. etc...... I spent only 10min on Ebay and i already found lots of potential M-pump.
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so if i bort one of these and then im assuming i need to change the shaft, to take the vw pully?
is that it? bolt straight on and away i go? :D
dont sound too bad, or am i missing sumthin?
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What Martin is saying is that there are several options out there for good mTDI pump bases....some in particular (the ones that he linked you to...) that will be "bolt on" for the most part. For max power though, some modification will still need to be done. However, most of those parts are well on their way to being setup nicely for a mTDI application.
Joe
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The land rover seems to be a nice DI pump and ''R'' rotation (It's important) I do not know for the shaft, but what I see on the photo, that seems to be correct to bolt up a VW pulley and correct belt alignement.
If you do not buy this pump, I think I will buy it.... and resell it for 650$ héhéhé!! make fast!!
But, make sure that the land rover engine are ''DI'', in the case if it's a IDI motor, the pump It's not good.
Ask for the Bosch pump number and PM me the number.
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Land Rovers are DI, at least the 200 TDI and 300 TDI. I'm not sure about the first 2.5l versions.
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I think also its DI.
It's a 11mm pump for land rover 300tdi (2.5L motor) for 4000rpm pump redline or engine.... I'm sure you can reach 4500rpm without modif.
Injector are 200Bar.
Go for it.
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ive asked about the part number, is the renault one not better as its 12mm?
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Finally I'm not sure if it's 12mm, I can check tomorow for reanult master 1997 2.5L.
For a 12mm pump, that depend waht your plans with your engine, If it's for drag and race, I suggest you 10mm, or 11mm, I,m not a fanatic of a 12mm head rotor for this application, but like Jimfoo in his landrover It's the best, (trail, rock crawling, towing, etc...) It's only my opinion.
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Actually I only have a 10 mm head, but the ladies who go for a ride say it seems much bigger. :lol:
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ive asked about the part number, is the renault one not better as its 12mm?
Tintin had a post a while back where he busted a 12mm head from revving it too much. i think he said it only likes to rev to around 4k... i forget where the post is located though. he also had pics of the carnage :twisted:
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if you are in 4k+ sustained...then no, that won't be a good thing and I remember Martin's post... he'll probably chime in on it though.
but...I don't know of many people that stay up in that 4k range for a long time. I've pulled my 12mm out to 4500 without an issue. Again...didn't stay there longer than shifting.
I've got a good 12mm BOSCH head that I'd trade for an 11mm pump head if someone was interested. I don't need the same fueling on the b3mTDI as I do in the mk1. So, let me know if there is interest.
Joe
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im confussed, i thort the bigger the pp the better, when i ran the quater in my idi i was loosing speed (time) by staying in the gears too long, if id shifted at 4500 i probly would hav got a much better time. but didnt realise that untill id had chance to think about it on the way home
how desperate are you for the 11pp i might swap in a few weeks
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FWIW, the TDI 12mm head is slightly different than the Cummins 4BT head. ;)
Karl
12mm heads are readily available from several pump applications out there. Namely, Cummins pumps from the 4bt seems to be a popular source. Beware of new heads on the market...some are 12mm heads that you can get "new" for a really cheap price but take a look at how poruous the metal is on them, there camplates, plungers and you'll find they are chinese heads. There have been several failures and "leaks" that have occured thanks to them. Even busted plungers and camplates! Get a good...used or if you can find them..."new" Bosch head :)
Joe
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There are lots of cummins 12mm head, lots of part number.
Cummins are also TDI motor.
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Correct. But in comparing the 12mm head from a 'VW' 2.8TDI and a new one of the same on my shelf, with all Cummins pumps I've done, the heads are different. The Cummins heads have a groove around the end of the plunger/piston. I've found the VW-style plunger hed with no groove work far better, so far.
There are lots of cummins 12mm head, lots of part number.
Cummins are also TDI motor.
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The grooved head it's from an old pump, the later model do not have the groove.
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Ah ok. I haven't seen anything newer than about 0460 424 144. When was that style introduced?
The grooved head it's from an old pump, the later model do not have the groove.
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FWIW, the TDI 12mm head is slightly different than the Cummins 4BT head. ;)
Karl
12mm heads are readily available from several pump applications out there. Namely, Cummins pumps from the 4bt seems to be a popular source. Beware of new heads on the market...some are 12mm heads that you can get "new" for a really cheap price but take a look at how poruous the metal is on them, there camplates, plungers and you'll find they are chinese heads. There have been several failures and "leaks" that have occured thanks to them. Even busted plungers and camplates! Get a good...used or if you can find them..."new" Bosch head :)
Joe
In that thread there Karl, I wasn't referring to any VW pump head directly. We won't even get into the complexities of the differences between plunger feet, etc. etc. I'm namely talking about the difference in quality between a BOSCH head and some other knock-off that exists on the market now.
Joe
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ok so i got a landrover 300tdi pump, virtualy everything fits, except the actual pump into the pump bracket, pump is too big, and not adjustable.
cud i machine a big enough hole so the pump fits and then use the pully off a 1Y n/a diesel to adjust the advance and retard? :roll:
(its an adjustable pully)
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Yes, It's the same thing when fitting a ALH pump on an 1Z/AHU engine, you need to enlarge the hole in the bracket, if you have a later AAZ with adjustable pulley, you can take the measures on it and reproduce it on the 1Z/AHU bracket, that also need ALH hub and pulley (adjustable)
Or take all the stock in the rover pump and swap it in older AAZ pump, but.... It's not the best idea.
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take out the 3 studs out of the pump and elngate the holes and put bolts in that will sort out your addvanc retard , was that the pump for £107 the bay , i thot you were broke :lol: have you tryed to see if the pump will fit strate
on the 1z and dose the pully line up, or the tdi pully fit , is the key in the pump used with the disqo pully ? be good to no for ref you no , good luck with the build
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it looked like its the same but now you mention it im not sure :oops:
i am skint, im having to sell and weigh in everything i own to build this car, its only half mine so only have to pay half 8)
i found a pump on the bay for £50 not very well listed, its so similar to an aaz pump apart from a few subtle differences. will tell you how it goes.
need sum .260 nozzles first, having trouble sourcing them atm :cry:
think thats everything apart from the head then.
anyone know if its worth porting and polishing? or shud i just not bother?
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i think the head flowes good up about 180 200 hp all i would do is give the inlet port a quck whiz over(ruff parts and lips) with a steel bur and 3 angle seat the inlet valves, exhaust give a wee port to the throt and a whiz over the rest of the port , i would 3 angle the exhaust valves to but leeve a biger seating lip cos its a exhaust valve , and i would not wast my time polishing any ports ,
and i would match the manafolds to the head , this is what i would do if it were me bro
you going to put 8 13 ally cats on the crado :D and paint the side back wondows the same col as the car and say to the nobers that it is a van and dont need wheel arches :wink: :twisted:
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thanx ill giv it my best shot, never done head work b4 and im a bit scared im gona grind a hole though the head :(
lol no this cars gona be mint, more of a weekend car than a daily.
the plan is metalic grey, decked 80mm smoothed bumpers angle eyes black leather interior, 16" audi steels with hubcaps, just gona keep the VR stickers and ***, gona be stealthy and quiet pretty much OEM (a wolf in VR6 clothing) :lol:
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[(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180252.jpg)
Put the parts in the AAZ pump to make an M-TDI pump. So that way you won't need to worry about that part.
quote]
Sorry for the hijack but what exactly does this part do?
Or could someone point me in the direction of some info on this part?
At the moment on my peugeot i have it hooked to a constant 12v+ supply and the car seems to run fine but id like a bit of reassurance.
Thanks
Anton
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No clue as that is on a regular TDI pump I believe.
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[(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180252.jpg)
Put the parts in the AAZ pump to make an M-TDI pump. So that way you won't need to worry about that part.
quote]
Sorry for the hijack but what exactly does this part do?
Or could someone point me in the direction of some info on this part?
At the moment on my peugeot i have it hooked to a constant 12v+ supply and the car seems to run fine but id like a bit of reassurance.
Thanks
Anton
you must have the only peugeot that has one off theas valves . i have never seen one on a peugeot, thay only do idi or comen fuel rale, what i no off, and i have seen lots off peugeot diesels
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that is the selenoid that controls dynamic advance on a tdi VP37 pump.
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sorry to pull the topick but would be relavent if you were building a moded
tdi with fly by wire , i am not shure how to mod this dynamic advance valve, but it must open a bit to alow more fuel to push agenst the timing piston , the ecu controls this valve , so maby a ristor in line may pull a bit more timing over the rev range , i may have this a bit wrong so just chime in and help out
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Leave it unplugged and the pump run like a normal pump, but this pump do not have mechanical load dependant, you have to drill it.
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[(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/P2180252.jpg)
Put the parts in the AAZ pump to make an M-TDI pump. So that way you won't need to worry about that part.
quote]
Sorry for the hijack but what exactly does this part do?
Or could someone point me in the direction of some info on this part?
At the moment on my peugeot i have it hooked to a constant 12v+ supply and the car seems to run fine but id like a bit of reassurance.
Thanks
Anton
you must have the only peugeot that has one off theas valves . i have never seen one on a peugeot, thay only do idi or comen fuel rale, what i no off, and i have seen lots off peugeot diesels
It came on 2 pumps i have, both came off a 1.9td 406.
The 406 unlike the 306 is semi ecu controlled, it uses a sensor in the no 2 injector i imagine to adjust the timing of that solenoid.
PS tintin - i originally left it unplugged on my pump but i could not get the timing set at all properly.
By twisting the pump both directions in their full range of motion i could not get that "sweet spot".
Only when i plugged this to a constant 12v+ could i get a sweet spot.
However i seem to lack top end pull, could this be the cause?
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Some AAZ have this selenoid too (N108)
You have to change the pressure regulator for one from a pump without this selenoid if you leave it unplugged, and make pump housing modification to add the load dependant fonction.
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What exactly is the modification to pump housing to add the load dependant function?
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Unfortunately its too long to explain.
Take a selenoidized pump housing and compare it with 1.6TD pump housing, and you will see what is the difference, and reproduce it.