VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => FAQ/Tech Tips/Please Read First => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 13, 2004, 10:27:02 pm
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Originally posted by DVST8R:
Well since we don't have one on this board yet I supose I will answer this one so people have something to search for. That and I just wrote out the novel for another board so ignore the refrences to the 4x4's and other engines
What this didn't cover as I had already covered it during this persons build up are the upfront costs. **These things must be in place b4 any thing you start to mod.
1. ***Exhaust from turbo back at lest 2.25" mandrel bent 2.5" is ideal, 3" is doable but takes alot more fabing.
2. Gauges. egt gauge, boost gauge, are the minimum, if you are going to do the govener mod then add a tach to that.
3. Intercooler, a poor intercooler is worse then none at all so choose wisely ( I am not the authority on intercoolers so someone else will have to jump in here.
4.**optional but highly recomended**1.9L metal HG, and arp, or raceware or, jan b's cheap head bolts or studs.
****WRITE DOWN EVERY ADJUSTMENT YOU MAKE, SO THAT IT IS EASY TO RETURN TO STOCK SETTINGS FOR EMISSIONS OR WHATEVER****
Ok lets start with the max fuel screw as even with out extra boost these motors can still definatly use extra fuel, so for this mod just break off the coller (either remove completly form pump and then remove or find the seam and pry it off with a well pointed flat blade screw driver. Then start turning it in until ether you chicken out, or your idle goes above 1200 or so with the idle screw turned right out (with the exhuast and intercooler setup you have if you run enough boost to burn this fuel (ie around 15-20psi) you will run lower egt # then a stock vwtd.
From here lets move to the the top of the pump under which is located the starwheel the diaphram and the anroid pin.
On the very top is a cap with a 13mm lock nut around a torx screw (i think its a T-25) this is referd to as the smoke screw as it adjusts low rpm / load fueling by turing it clock wise you increse the fuel and normally the smoke and visa versa, a good place to start is about two turns in.
Now lets remove the four screws holding the cap down pull off the cap and you will see a large rubber diaphram **(there should be a puch mark on the metal center take note of the direction it is pointed), with some wiggling and sometimes the added help of a flat balde screwdriver prying on the metal center this should come out with a spring and a nylon washer, at the bottom is the ecentric cone that the anroid pin rides on, if you look around the cone you will see exactly where the pin rides (ware mark) now take the nylon washer and compare the its thickness to the the amont of pin travel to the top of the cone, remove that much from the washer so the pin now can travel to a hair shy of the top of the cone. Incase you havn't realized the amount that pin travels is the amount of fuel avalible under boost so now when we replace the cone and the diaphram we will replace it so that the pin is now riding on the steepest section, BUT before we replace it lets look down into the hole where the starwheel resides. The star wheel adjustment sets the spring tension on the fuel load delivery rate diaphragm. If your star wheel (under the AFC spring) is set too high, the delivery rate pin won't move downward as it should with increasing boost levels. Turning the star wheel up (counterclockwise) increases the spring pressure, and slows the delivery rate. I'd suggest turning the star wheel down (clockwise) in 1/4 turn increments until you smoke, then back off (counterclockwise) till smoke is gone to your satisfaction, or smoke on under power, a black haze, not a black soot cloud. The retaining lock spring doesn't have to be removed, the star wheel will rotate with a small screwdriver gently placed and pried between the wheel and it. Note the location of the wheel, mark it, and count any turns for reference. Remember: Star wheel down=less spring resistance=increased fuel delivery rate.
Ok so far all of the above mods have been free, just basic tuning built into the motor. These next mods may or may not be free depending on your skill and the tools you have.
First We Now need more Air so its time for a manul boost contoroler this can be anything form a fish tank bleeder valve, to a full on greddy electronic boost mangement system. personally I like the grainger valve its cheap, works well and is reliable, here is a link to all sorts of boost contorllers boost controllers once again this could be free or it could cost $600.00 depends on what you have and what you want.
Next is injection pump timing, ***IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN THE LAST TIME THE TIMMING BLET WAS CHANGED DO IT NOW WHILE YOU ARE DOING TIHS** With that being said you don't have to actually remove the timming belt to do this, but you do need the proper dial gauges, If you don't have them take it to sombody that does, get it set for 1.00mm - 1.05mm factory is .95mm incse anybody cares. once again if you have the tools this could be free if you don't it probably will cost you something.
Finally this last mod is not all that hard but, is high on the pucker factor which is why most people let a shop do it (preferabley at the same time as the mod listed above) this is the govener mod. The govener on this motor start kicking in about 2800 rpm with a limit to about 5450 rpm, now this mod will change your motor from night to day. Imagine if you will your driving along in a normal family car and as you press on the gas you get more fuel so the more load the engine sees and the faster you rev it the more fuel it gets, obviously to a point. no imagine that you are driving that same car and some one has put a govener on it that starts taking away fuel at 2800rpm and by the time you reach 4000rpm even with your foot flat on the floor you it is cutting out the fuel by 80%, now I know you wouldn't except it in a gas motor so why would you in a diesel. The reason I use this analogy is when most people hear rpm mod they think of getting more rpm's and that is partly true you now can take your motor to what ever rpm you think it will hold, however it start to run out of top end breathing at about 5500rpm, though people have had to 6000rpm. The point is that there is a lot of extra power and dirveability with this mod.
Now for the actuall mod, on the cover of the pump (below the boost enrichment device we previously discussed) are four allen screws and a spring assembley it is imparitve that the spring assembly go back to gether exacly the same and on the exact same postion on its shaft so take pictures mark it draw it, what ever you hav eto do to make sure it goes back together the same. (Normally If I am working on a pump Ido this all at the same time I.e. I will pull out all of the above listed pieces and have everything layed out and marked) Now once you are in there you will see a spring assembly that has three parts a very soft idle spring **leave this one as is** an intermidiate spring and a long main sping. These springs are set so that once the idle spring has been compressed it starts to work on the intermidate spring and once that has been taken car of it starts on the main spring, now this main spring is long enough that you never actually get to the end of it in the real world. Here is the options for this mod, you can:
1. replace the intermidate and main sping with a solid piced of tube or strong wire ect... somthing that doesnt compress (I have even heard of fuel line )
2. you can place shims (read washers or what have you) in the intermidate spring placing it in coilbind and preloading the main spring by about a 1/4"
3. or you can just replace the intermidate spring with something solid, and preload the main agin by about 1/4"
then re-assemble and double check the spring asembly on the outside cover.
Now go and dirve your new beast you will quite litteraly smoke any stock gti 16v, or 8v, and will probably even keep pace with a well moded gti
And if this still isnt enough let me know and we will talk injectors, propane, nitrous, bigger turbo's, or twin sequntials, head swaps, cams and pump mods to take care of the fueling needs :grinpimp: but all of those cost money.
The most you should spend to get all of the above done is about $350 cdn, (THIS IS NOT INCLUDING THE ** UPFRONT COSTS** SEE ABOVE) that is including replacing the timing belt and buying a manual boost controller (ebay is a great source lots of ricers to cater too :flipoff2: anyone will work don't worry if it says for a specific brand its just controlling air flow)
And that about wraps up stage one. (or mabey novel #1 )
Some one correct me If I am wrong, but I belive that at this point you are in the 120HP neighbour hood and depending on how much you can fab and the kind of deals you got along the way it will have cost you anyware from about $200.00 - $2500.00
link to boost controllers
http://www.fwdmopar.com/sites/dennis/boostcontrolbible.html
[fspGTD edit: renamed thread from "more power"]
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thats weird...why didnt I have to log in to post?
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The problem is fixed..
Marc/
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DIY Governor Mod thread:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=16606 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=16606)
We know this is a bad link. Unfortunately if we fix it it leads to something unrelated to the gov mod. If you know the thread this is suppose to be linked to, please IM a mod
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If you are planning on turning boost of your 1.6lTD up beyond 12psi, you will need to adjust/modify your blow-off valve to keep it from venting off the air when the boost pressure rises. Here is a link on "how to" perform this modification:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=2554.0
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It's worth mentioning to newbies that the "How to make your 1.9TD a faster car" thread also applies to 1.6TD for the most part. The main differences between the 1.6L and 1.9L tuning tips is the injection pump. That said, 1.6 owners should ignore the 1.9L boost pin differences and the wiring in the pump. Here it is (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=579.0).
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Is there a Limit Switch on a 1.6L TD ?
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Hi All,
Hi all, I'm a newB to this site, so first and foremost HI ALL, fantastic site :D , the info on this site is great!! keep up the good work, i had no idea these engines were soooo good to tune up, and the power they can produce.
I currently have a t25 caravelle with 1.7N/A engine , and have just purchased a 1.6td Sb intercooled engine for a winter transplant.
b4 I transplant i'm intending to pop the head and have a good look inside,
so will be needing a head gasket.
I have read posts in ref to 1.6td head gasket upgrade, can somebody clarify some points -
1/ the upgrade is to a metal one from 1.9td?
2/ are there are modifications needed to either engine or gasket?
3/ could someone provide a part number,
only reason I ask is that I saw a thread with pictures where holes were being drilled into the block?
Sorry if this has been covered already, i'd rather be safe than sorry i'm sure yo understand. :oops:
thanks guys,
ps this site is amazing
:D :D
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Since no one has done a write up with pics of the tear down of a boost aneroid, i decided too since many people have questions and are afraid of diving into the unknown, this should help many people with adjusting their pump, hillfolk did similar pictures for me which is how i learned. anyways here we go. these pictures are more to go with the 1.6 and 1.9 hwo to make your car faster threads, not as its own right up, use this in correlation with them to help understand. oh yeah, and if you screw your car up doing this stuff, i'm not responsible
Ok so here is the first thing you see when the pop the hood, woot woot a turbodiesel, oh the fun, but this thread is about making them even more fun so, this screw is often referred to as the smoke screw, just so everyone know s, it's better explain in the how to make your 1.9 faster thread, but this adjust the resting place of the boost pin when there is no boost, and if you have it adjusting down too far it can really increase smoke, i personally don't mess with it, i don't really see the point.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/tscrew.jpg)
So let's crack this bad boy open by removing the 4 flat head screws, sometimes they're a little tight, but be a man and put some elbow grease into it and you shouldn't have any trouble. So this here is the first thing you see when you open the lda, a nice rubber diaphram, not the contraceptive kind unfortunately. As you will notice i have noted the dot on the center piece of the diaphram clamp thing, and the notch on the edge of the lda. when the dot is directly facing the notch, the boost pin is turned to it's lowest fueling setting, and the steepest shallowest side of the taper. no fun there haha, as you can see i have mine turned completely opposite to the highest fueling point. you may also notice that i point a mark with a permanent marker on the opposite side of the pump to the notch.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/notchdot.jpg)
this is what it looks like when you pull the boost pin out, take it easy at this step, it doesn't pull out right away, spin it around and pull up and it should come out easy, don't be all rough or you could damage the seal on the feeler that rides agains the boost pin.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/removedboostpin.jpg)
it's a little hard to tell, but you can see the cone is off center here, this should help everyone to understand why turning the dot and notch toward and away from each other makes quite a bit of difference.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/DSCN0115.jpg)
ok so here is the star wheel, the spring sits in it and it adjusts the tension on the spring, turning it to the left raises star wheel and the springs seat, this increases tension, turning it to the right lowers the star wheel and decreases tension, which increases fuel, as you can see i put marks on this as well so that it is much easier to see how many times i turned it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/starwheel.jpg)
and just to better understand what you are adjusting, here is a picture of the feeler pin, it rides agains the taper on the boost pin, the further to the right this goes the more fuel you get, it is also what can hold the boost pin in, and the reason why you spin the pin to help push it back into the pump, this can also make it hard to put the boost pin back in, but all you need to do is push it back with a screw driver a little bit
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/pin.jpg)
and here is the max fuel screw in case someone couldn't find it, and if you are too dumb to find the idle adjust on a 1.6 pump, you should not be doing any of this stuff haha
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/maxfuel.jpg)
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(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e226/BD-Fuel/BoschPumpLDAvent.png)
In the picture, is the blue circled vent named correctly?
has anyone ever applied vacuum (like the suction side of the turbo)?
or do you get all the adjustment you need inside (as shown in your excellent DIY post!)
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there is no vacuum, on the intake side of the turbo unless your air filter is dirty, the vent is just to relieve air and pressure from the lower side of the lda
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please help me with some information. I saw the pictures and I folowed the steps exactly for checking the pin's position. When i opened the LDA I found a lot of fuel in that place ,in fact all the place was full of fuel .the pin was inside . The fuel goes outside from the top part of LDA trough that vent thing and is licking down . i want to mention that my golf makes a lot of smoke when i push harder the acceleration. what do i have to do for fixing this problem ?
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Just curious, about how much should I turn the starwheel nut when first starting this mod?
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please help me with some information. I saw the pictures and I folowed the steps exactly for checking the pin's position. When i opened the LDA I found a lot of fuel in that place ,in fact all the place was full of fuel .the pin was inside . The fuel goes outside from the top part of LDA trough that vent thing and is licking down . i want to mention that my golf makes a lot of smoke when i push harder the acceleration. what do i have to do for fixing this problem ?
a seal came out of ur pump, most likely the one around the feeler. probably when you removed the pin, but if removing the pin made it come out, then it was on its way out.
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Hi all, i need some help.
A friend removed the top cover (4 Ellen key bolts) I am sure he did not replace it correctly. The car refuses to start. That was the only thing he removed and put back together...
Any help to get it to start would be appreciated.
Oh, it has the advance...for the turbo
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As you will notice i have noted the dot on the center piece of the diaphram clamp thing, and the notch on the edge of the lda. when the dot is directly facing the notch, the boost pin is turned to it's lowest fueling setting, and the steepest shallowest side of the taper. no fun there haha, as you can see i have mine turned completely opposite to the highest fueling point. you may also notice that i point a mark with a permanent marker on the opposite side of the pump to the notch.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/notchdot.jpg)
I would just like to mention that I was having a terrible time adjusting my pump and not getting the results I was expecting after having read this, until I realized that on my LDA diaphragm, the dot placement is opposite to what is pictured above - that is to say that when my dot is lined up with the notch it is at its highest fueling setting.
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That can be true John unless someone has taken it apart and the dot isn't lined up with anything.
Realistically the pin needs to be lifted out of the bore to make sure the slope is where you think it is then reinserted. One could remove the pin from the diaphragm and realign the dot if desired as well.
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I'm a little new to the IDI pumps. After reading the first page I have a question. It describes two way to adjust fueling. One way is to realign the dot on the diapharam which will change the position of the pin and I get how that works. Then it talks about adjusting the star wheel. Are these two different way to increase fueling and I can pick one or the other, or both.........or do they usually need to be done together?
Thanks,
Chris
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The "dot" method should actually be done a different way. You should be aligning the sharpest part of the taper on the boost pin toward the left side of the pump (if you are facing the front of the car) if you want the most fueling. On some pumps the dot does not line up properly. This adjustment will allow more fueling when the engine is under boost.
The starwheel mechanism is used to adjust the rate that the fueling starts at. That is to say, the farther down you have the wheel, the earlier you will see extra fuel when boost comes on. Less spring pressure means less pressure required to push the diaphragm down.
Both can be used at the same time or different times. Depends what gains you are looking for. Obviously for the most and fastest fueling:
Starwheel down. Sharp part of the taper to the left.
Matt
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¿que es star wheel?
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op-ivy..... yes that makes sense with the dot. Since my car is a Quantum I'll just need to take all your directions and turn them 90 deg.
Once I get the car to start again I'll try this stuff.
Thanks for the help.
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Andrew, very good explaination on that one. Thanks for being so thorough. I'll reference this again in the near future. I won't be getting too aggressive as I don't have an EGT yet.
So when you say floored off boost do you mean a quick full throttle rev with car parked?
Thanks also for the help in the other thread as well.
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Interesting stuff.
I find that if i start at like 1,000rpm (when you first release the clutch) at WOT it seems a lot slower than if i gradually lay into the pedal, you know, the "sweet spot"! or is this in my head and with diesels such as ours there is no such thing. It seems to bog a bit. Is that a perfect example of where fine tuning these settings would optimize fueling with rpm, boost and so on?
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To really see what's going on you need both EGT and boost gauges.
I figured that would end up being the case. A boost gauge is easy enough to do on short order. An EGT will be a bit more of a process for me to jump on. So many projects around my place already, including a soon to be turbo Fox wagon.
Thanks for you help.
If I can't find anything reasonable around here, I'll prob be considering your resealing service. Do you have anybody on this forum that you've done pump for as a reference?
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I can appreciate the "maximum fueling" concept, but it's not the approach I take even if I want max power. My approach is to turn the max fuel screw in until it smokes a bit when floored off boost. Then adjust the starwheel, pin stop ("smoke screw" in the initial pic) and boost pin rotation in order to achieve a similar amount of smoke across all of the boost pressures the engine experiences, e.g. if the smoke clears as boost comes up then go for a more aggressive slope or lower the starwheel. Once a similar smokescreen occurs throughout the range of boost, then turn the max fuel screw in or out to increase or decrease all of the fueling across the board. Just turning the boost pin to max or lowering starwheel to max can result in excessive smoke/EGTs at certain times and in essence hurting max performance of other times when the fueling is less. Rotating the pin to more aggressive and dropping the starwheel can result in excessive EGTs at inopportune times, e.g. hill climbing. If going for an unequal fueling, I would actually prefer to see excessive smoke off boost and then clear on boost as it will spool the turbo faster and result in lower max power EGTs.
Andrew
Hey Andrew - would you recommend this same method for getting a good adjustment on a newly rebuilt pump? I think my Giles-built pump could use some fine tuning for my particular car. Too much smoke for my taste, but I don't want to be guessing around with adjusting it.
Thanks!
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Sorry to bump a new thread, but I'm here to get a little clarification if I may? So I've currently removed all the bits and pieces to get to this star wheel. Now I've turned it to the right to increase fuel economy, yes? I was wondering, how many turns should i put in, or just as many as I can until it wont turn?
Also after turning the star wheel for fuel economy, which way should I align the dot on the diaphragm to maximize the effects? Oh and is there any harm or risk in doing this, like long term use will damage the engine? Will it need checking monthly to make sure it is all still correctly aligned?
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I'm also interested how it afecct on fuel economy after fixing fuel??
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economy with the fuel turned up is controlled by the right foot....with the starwheel spun all the way up, however, the pump will require more boost to deliver extra fuel....with the (pre-load) screw on the top cover backed off and the starwheel spring tension set high, at low boost levels there will be a minumum amount of fuel delivered...at least thats how I see it... ;)
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that mean if i put star wheel down I increase full usage, or if i put star wheel down I will safe the fuel.
also I wanna now with max power whics is usage of fuel ( l/100km), where should be the golden middle of power and fuel usage in that settings
thanks
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tuning ;D
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at first I need to buy boost gauge, and egt gauge to see what's happening. I only modify boost pin and starwheel more up, lo the left side and boost pin to the full fuel delivery.
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I'm sory but I really don't understand exacly how to get fuel economy, I spin diafragm to extra fuel and starwheel more up, what else should I do to get fuel economy, and that car have acceleration.
now I have fuel usage 7l/100km
thanks again
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You can't have acceleration AND fuel economy. You have to pick one.
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what should be the highest fuel usage (l/100km), with fixing fuel
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You can't have acceleration AND fuel economy. You have to pick one.
True. 1,6TD, 170hp/7seconds 0-100kmh and 5,8 litres/100km :(
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this is great, I only rotate boost pin too max fueling and put starwhell more down and I have 7l/100km, how to make smaller usage of fuel
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Hi, I'm Thor and I'm new here!
I bought a caravelle with a 1.6TD a few weeks ago, and I'm planning to start messing with it soon. I won't be doing anything extreme (yet). After looking around a little i have a couple of questins.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/tscrew.jpg)
This is what my engine looks like:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_mG3n0QYKZXc/Su7NPM0KUmI/AAAAAAAACLc/XbpUra8dxyU/s720/dscf4520.jpg)
I cant seem to find the boost aneroid? maybe I've misunderstood something here, but shouldn't it be on top of the pump?
and here is the max fuel screw in case someone couldn't find it, and if you are too dumb to find the idle adjust on a 1.6 pump, you should not be doing any of this stuff haha
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/maxfuel.jpg)
Anyone have a pic to illustrate that on a JX? I think I have located them but I'm a little reluctant to start messing with it until I'm shure.
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Thor it doesnt look like you pump has an lda (where the boost aneroid is). Looks like a normally aspirated pump hence, no aneroid pin.
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i agree wholeheartedly with both your ideas, cant see what else you could clean up besides that...
go for it
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so if I have too much on fuel boost I just rotate the pin so the steep side faces the tab on the pump that rides on it. AND raise the spring pressure of the star wheel. My on boost fuel just won't stop climbin no matter what.
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you must grind off pin something about 50% part up. So when you have more boost violently then you get a lot of fuel , but if you have shy boost you get shy fuel... But you must have gov mode with it and preferably timing mode.
sorry for my English
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I've done a lot of mods mentioned in this thread, and i've now gotten to the subject "injectors". Mine are worn, so i would like to replace the nozzels. Preferable by some upgraded versions. I've heard some stories about Mercedes Benz nozzles from a 300D, but i can't exactly find which ones. Can anyone tell me which nozzles are the best nozzles for tuning?
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from what I have read, no experience with these injector nozzles because my rebuilt standard ones (155b) are sufficient 8)), the spray patern is not right for our typical prechambers. If some here can get more than 150cv with the standard injectors why change for potentially worse?
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from what I have read, no experience with these injector nozzles because my rebuilt standard ones (155b) are sufficient 8)), the spray patern is not right for our typical prechambers. If some here can get more than 150cv with the standard injectors why change for potentially worse?
the mercedes nozzles are not well suited for our pre-chambers.. and there is really no good performance gains..
FWIW, the guys on the Merc boards run VW injectors.. lol.
i would just run a set of GTD nozzles, or GM nozzles.. Owen ran a set of those, they worked good from what i can remember..