VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: vanbcguy on January 18, 2014, 10:55:05 am
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So I know a few folks on here now have purchased and are using diesel pulse adapters for setting timing. Given that anyone doing anything M-TDI basically has to either make up their timing figures otherwise I thought it would be good to get some info together around what people are using, etc. The idea being that maybe this thread can become a sticky later on.
So, what I'm looking for:
- what kind of adapter you have
- any accessories needed to make it work with the VW?
- what kind of timing light are you using?
- any other info you can share
Thanks!
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I have a snap-on pulse adapter just like this (borrowed pic):
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/r_97-1_zps1a7ac050.jpg)
With it, I use an Actron timing light that has the tach and advance features. Actron is a cheap brand, IMO, but the timing light has worked flawlessly for quite a few years. If purchasing a timing light I would strongly recommend getting one with those two features. The advance function meas you don't have to mess with degree wheels or counting flywheel teeth and making punch marks... The tach feature means you can adjust the idle accurately and calibrate your tach.
I got the pulse adapter off eBay as NOS for $80 shipped. The timing light was $100. No other accessories were necessary. I had the dial indicator already and was a bit reluctant to spend the money 'whimsically'. Looking back, it was an excellent purchase that proved more beneficial than I ever expected.
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I'm all over this. You'd think there would be some cheap, adaptable tech out there to make a simple module. The available new units I've found are $190.00 and up. Ferret and Gunson are two manufacturers.
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Hey Andrew, you do 12° at idle, right?
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Yes, I use 12° BTDC.
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I'm all over this. You'd think there would be some cheap, adaptable tech out there to make a simple module. The available new units I've found are $190.00 and up. Ferret and Gunson are two manufacturers.
The pickup mine uses is pretty much the same as the piezo pickup that tinytach. Tinytach sells just the transducer for $60. I imagine that someone with a little prototyping skill could build up a signal processor easily enough...
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Here's one on craigslist here in central Wa. $50
http://yakima.craigslist.org/tls/4254923469.html
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That's a luminosity probe version. It will work in a similar manner, but the spec for timing would be different.
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Yes, I use 12° BTDC.
Are there other degree markings on the idi flywheels (other than the TDC mark) or do you have to make your own? How do you make your 12 degree mark? How many teeth are on my 92 Eco flywheel? I am in the midst of a project, playing with piezo sensors and circuitry to make a diesel pulse adapter.
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If you reread my first post it will answer your questions except how many teeth are you your flywheel. Obviously you can answer that question easier than I can.
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If you reread my first post it will answer your questions except how many teeth are you your flywheel. Obviously you can answer that question easier than I can.
Well, if you trust your life to the accuracy of the timing light's advance feature, then you don't need to make your own timing mark. ::) I was hoping I don't have to count the number of teeth and that someone else has done it already. ;D
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You could always take the initiative, count the teeth and post it up in order to contribute something other than your sense of entitlement. ;)
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All the ones I've counted so far have 125 teeth.
IIRC, Mark in UK might have a different count on the Quantum.
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Is this method more accurate than the dial indicator method?
-Todd
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Yes. More to the point it is measuring the actual start of the injection which is what really matters, and takes into account the injector break pressure and wear in the injection pump. The dial indicator does not.
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Its all relative anyway. If you are just playing with one pump on one motor, you do not need anything other than the dial indicator. If you even need that.
Set it IP timing at whatever you think is a good starting point. Stock specs are a good place to begin.
Make some Norwegian dyno runs. (Find a stretch of road that you can run flat out on through 3rd gear. Preferable uphill. Run that same stretch of road from a set speed, say 30 mph. Note your speed from some fixed point to another. Make the speed runs and note your "trap speed".
Adjust the timing to the advanced side a small increment, and make some more Norwegian dyno runs. If things are getting better add some more initial advance. If you are getting slower take some out and do it again.
Eventually you will find the sweet spot. It will be worth your time.
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Its all relative anyway. ...
Adjust the timing to the advanced side a small increment, and make some more Norwegian dyno runs. If things are getting better add some more initial advance. If you are getting slower take some out and do it again.
Watch out. That's close to HILLBILLY talk... and that word starts with the same letter as HERESY.
It also raises pesky questions like when does the piezo trigger?... start of delivery, start of injection, somewhere in between... how do you know?... (There can be 25 degrees of crank between the two ends.) Or, since the the piezo cannot detect needle lift, can it really detect the difference between break pressures? Not to mention the issues of combustion lag which changes with compression, engine temperature, spray pattern, fuel, etc. . Plus, piezo pickup only measures one line, so one must assume the injectors and delivery valves are matched, so timing is not based on a sole outlier, unless the flywheel is marked every 90o and each line is tested. But I digress...
Followers of Satan tune their engines based on performance.
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The piezo adapter fires at the start of injection. The micro-expansion of the metal line is what charges the crystal pickup and it fires it's pulse when the line starts to relax which is at the actual start of injection which precisely coincides with needle lift. Yes, the piezo pickup DOES detect needle lift very accurately.
With an engine at normal operating temperature (which is always what you time for), the start of injection and start of combustion is very closely related. The variations in engine operating parameters that you describe are factors with any timing method, including hillbilly. There is also not any timing method which times for the individual injectors and trying to time the injectors individually on a VE pump would be anti-productive. Having injectors in decent tune and as close to each other as possible in break pressure is necessary regardless of timing procedure. The piezo pickup method DOES allow you to check the timing of individual injectors easier than any other method. The crank only needs one additional mark at 180° on a 4-cyl 4-stroke. It is faster, easier and less subjective than any other timing method. Doing controlled dyno runs could certainly result in a better end result but the time and effort involved would be HUGE in comparison. 500 times the effort might result in a 1% gain?
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I would agree to point of 'satan' as these are not usually stock engines, Not speaking for the majority, but I look for peak performance. Since some are MTDI and usually larger nozzles than stock, stock setting are not going to be at 'peak performance'. I think a bit of both which is what I see in this post is what needed to get extremely to correct timing. I'm sure the diesel pulse adapter would help to confirm this.
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I have used the pulse adapter on a significant variety of pumps/injectors/engines and it will do a better job than 99.9% of the diesel tuners out there can do with hillbilly tuning and at in an extremely small fraction of the time required. A smart phone dyno app or G-Tech with multiple accurately controlled runs and slight timing adjustments between sets would probably return a marginally better timing spec but take vastly more time and effort. I certainly don't feel that 'Hillbilly tuning' is wrong or bad. It is just vastly more time consuming and labor intensive. The subjective aspect is also a real turn-off for me and in order to eliminate the subjective aspect one would need to either use something like gTech or Dyno app as mentioned above or some other piece of equipment more expensive or more complicated than the pulse adapter or take the long-term approach of multiple tanks of fuel which has even more margin for error due to varying fuel blends, driving conditions, etc...
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The piezo adapter fires at the start of injection. The micro-expansion of the metal line is what charges the crystal pickup and it fires it's pulse when the line starts to relax which is at the actual start of injection which precisely coincides with needle lift. Yes, the piezo pickup DOES detect needle lift very accurately.
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Is this info from the SnapOn pulse adapter manual? It would be interesting to verify with an oscilloscope if the injection line pulse coincides with needle lift. Wouldn't be too difficult to set up on an engine with a needle lift injector. I think all TDI's have one. IIRC needle lift is on #3 cyl? Why did VW do that instead of on #1?
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All the ones I've counted so far have 125 teeth.
IIRC, Mark in UK might have a different count on the Quantum.
Thanks for the info. I knew someone counted already. I have a spare Eco engine. When I can get to it, I will verify the count.
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The piezo adapter fires at the start of injection. The micro-expansion of the metal line is what charges the crystal pickup and it fires it's pulse when the line starts to relax which is at the actual start of injection which precisely coincides with needle lift. Yes, the piezo pickup DOES detect needle lift very accurately.
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Is this info from the SnapOn pulse adapter manual? It would be interesting to verify with an oscilloscope if the injection line pulse coincides with needle lift. Wouldn't be too difficult to set up on an engine with a needle lift injector. I think all TDI's have one. IIRC needle lift is on #3 cyl? Why did VW do that instead of on #1?
That would be great. Please get back with the test results ASAP. Which injector has the needle lift sensor is irrelevant to the engine management. It just changes the one variable in the code. I imagine they used #3 in order to most easily maintain the same metal line length.
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It occurred to me some time ago that we could make a timing device that plugged into the crank position sensor and the needle lift sensor, would that be right? And what sort of 'signal' do you find if you measure those sensors? What would the device be detecting? Probably not a difficult thing to set up with an arduino i'd guess, I may have a play with this.
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The piezo adapter fires at the start of injection. The micro-expansion of the metal line is what charges the crystal pickup and it fires it's pulse when the line starts to relax which is at the actual start of injection which precisely coincides with needle lift. Yes, the piezo pickup DOES detect needle lift very accurately.
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Is this info from the SnapOn pulse adapter manual? It would be interesting to verify with an oscilloscope if the injection line pulse coincides with needle lift. Wouldn't be too difficult to set up on an engine with a needle lift injector. I think all TDI's have one. IIRC needle lift is on #3 cyl? Why did VW do that instead of on #1?
That would be great. Please get back with the test results ASAP. Which injector has the needle lift sensor is irrelevant to the engine management. It just changes the one variable in the code. I imagine they used #3 in order to most easily maintain the same metal line length.
I would if I have a TDI and a pulse adapter. I have a scope though.
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... the start of injection and start of combustion is very closely related.
Hrrrrmmm.... not sure I buy that. Start of combustion is more dependent on fuel and compression. Start of combustion is regularly a few degrees after SI and that's with good compression. Low compression can delay combustion much further. Air in the cylinder needs to reach autoignition temp (~500F depending on fuel), which happens later in low compression engines.
Not sure I buy the relaxing lines bit either, but I'm open to seeing any mfr documents to 'splain that up.
As for timing individual injectors... nah. But checking each line and setting for the average... ja, I'd sure do that if I had the spendy toy.
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Don't quote only half of the sentence I wrote. "When up to normal operating temperature..." Yes, Start of injection happens before start of combustion but once an engine has reached normal operating temp, the combustion chamber is always very well above ignition temp when the fuel is injected. Go ahead and read up on piezo pickups and how they work. When a crystal is compressed it stores a charge. When the pressure decreases, the charge is released. I'll let you spend your time to educate yourself on it if you want to. I couldn't care less.
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I'll let you spend your time to educate yourself on it if you want to. I couldn't care less.
Blah blah.
I did just get off the phone with a pal versed in piezo and dipoles and he did clue me on the charge reversal. We've been working with triboelectrics more than piezos.
As for the combustion lag, the fact that there is a term and graphs for it indicate that it occurs even when engines are up to temp. Consider that a cylinder with 200psi will have half the temperature or less since it is leaky, and while it may reach ~650F, it will do it quite a bit later than a 490psi air charge.
But you don't have to take my word for it... lots of papers on combustion lag online.
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I would think that timing an engine with 200 psi with any method isn't going to yield the best performance. If you are trying to ride a dead horse, don't expect to win the derby. I think the spec for rebuild is around 375psi and probably most engines with those types of numbers or above will have a temp more what you are looking for to light the fuel. If you publish the paper on here we could make a chart, if there isn't one already, on what the delay vs temp is. Also, the more retarded the timing approaching 0 degrees, I would think the closer the interval between injection and combustion is. As the piston would be further up the bore and compressing the air to ignition temps. I would think that even a whipped engine with 200 psi or 1/2 of what it should have will still light the fuel when it reaches the proper temp/compression. I am just thinking in my head and have no clue about this specifically, but to me it would seem logical like this: if normal optimum injection was at 12 degrees BTDC and if it is linear, then a 1/2 compression engine would light similar at 6 or when the air is compressed equal to where a healthy engine was timed at 12? Too many factors, but it interests me, I would love to learn more, and I think it isn't something that we all couldn't grasp if explained correctly.
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The fuel is already hot from being compressed, hot from being in the injector, and sprayed directly across the hot glow plug regardless of compression.
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What's the white smoke when timing is retarded? Unburnt fuel methinks...
So, despite a hot injector and a flame-front from initial combustion, the flame goes out and unburnt fuel goes out the tailpipe?
(fuel heating from compression in the hardlines is negated upon release and atomization methinks)
TheMan53, you are following my drivel correctly, compression vs temperature is generally a constant, but the leakdown of bad rings makes it more tricky. Consider the recent topic on push-starting vs cranking.... push starting can spin the engine fast enough to reach autoignition before leakdown and before the air-charge cools on the metal surfaces. Slow crank a cold engine with low compression... no autoignition, no worky. Conversely, high compression allows earlier injection timing, earlier combustion that can continue across TDC until the fuel is entirely spent.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bPCY4mOaW00/UTgQt7Qs7jI/AAAAAAAABE4/zHbTXauB1Tk/s800/InjectionGraphs.png)
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There is always some combustion lag and I never tried to say there wasn't. What I did try to say is that once normal operating temperature is reached the difference in time between start of injection and start of combustion on a fresh engine vs. one that is nearing the bottom end of spec is not significant.
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What's the white smoke when timing is retarded? Unburnt fuel methinks...
So, despite a hot injector and a flame-front from initial combustion, the flame goes out and unburnt fuel goes out the tailpipe?
(fuel heating from compression in the hardlines is negated upon release and atomization methinks)
TheMan53, you are following my drivel correctly, compression vs temperature is generally a constant, but the leakdown of bad rings makes it more tricky. Consider the recent topic on push-starting vs cranking.... push starting can spin the engine fast enough to reach autoignition before leakdown and before the air-charge cools on the metal surfaces. Slow crank a cold engine with low compression... no autoignition, no worky. Conversely, high compression allows earlier injection timing, earlier combustion that can continue across TDC until the fuel is entirely spent.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bPCY4mOaW00/UTgQt7Qs7jI/AAAAAAAABE4/zHbTXauB1Tk/s800/InjectionGraphs.png)
I cannot count that fast.
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Here's another way to look at it:
Without the cold-start advance of 5o (crank), a cold engine might run kinda crappy... that's from combustion lag due to low air temperature, IMO. The cylinders reach autoignition point later, and fuel goes out the tailpipe.
A 250psi engine might run pretty good with 5o advance of static timing. Insignificant?... Maybe not.
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Your imagination is, in a way, interesting... Your premise seems to be that, based on your imagination, compression that is half of spec might affect injection lag on a fully warmed up engine, making a more advanced timing spec beneficial. If a more advanced timing spec might be beneficial on a vastly out of spec engine, then a pulse adapter, in all cases, is a worthless tool and everyone (seig heil) should (moral imperative) ditch all non-subjective timing tools and embrace hillbilly timing their engines.
If you want to argue the uselessness of a tool that you've never used on the basis that it can't optimize a thoroughly worn out engine, that doesn't seem either logical or useful to anyone. Although, it is, arguably, entertaining. If you have a particular beef against diesel pulse adapters, then I can probably help you imagine even more potential issues... Let's consider the dynamic advance and case pressure. If someone installs an IN bolt in the Out bolt location, the vane pump is worn out, the pressure regulator is whacked out of adjustment and the dynamic advance piston bore is gouged, the dynamic advance will not work correctly. With the dynamic advance not doing it's thing, if you use a pulse adapter to set the timing at idle, then the timing will be progressively more and more off as the rpms increase. In that case, hillbilly timing the engine so that it is timed properly for cruising rpms will return better performance and much better fuel economy. When running a worn out injection pump with no case pressure and jacked dynamic advance, a pulse adapter is the wrong tool for the job... What about injector pop pressure? Maybe that affects the start of combustion even more than compression. You might imagine that larger droplets of fuel take longer to ignite that a super-fine mist. In that case, dropping compression would reduce injection lag as the pressure difference between pop pressure and cylinder pressure will affect atomization and a lower cylinder pressure will result in a greater pressure differential. You could argue that with injector pop pressure 1/2 of spec, you imagine the tool would also be ineffective. How about if the atmosphere had a reduced oxygen content. That also might make the tool less useful. You might imagine that if you were on a different planet then a pulse adapter wouldn't be nearly as optimal for timing your 1/2 compression, 1/2 injector pop pressure VW diesel. What if you were running it on unicorn piss? Everyone knows that the BTU content of unicorn piss is much higher than no. 2 diesel but the viscosity is proportionately lower. How do you imagine that running on unicorn piss would affect the usefulness of a pulse adapter for timing your 1/2 compression, 1/2 pop pressure VW engine with worn out injection pump, while living on the planet Zuark with it's reduced oxygen atmosphere?
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I think you have made your point. This tool seems very useful and needs discussion for those of us who don't have one yet.
Guys, I think this has enough information for us to get the basics on how it works now. If you don't think the thread does, why don't you wait a few days before firing it up again. There is nothing bad here...yet...I would like it to stay that way and we all be friends. So lets find some common ground and come back to this if we have to.
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This is very entertaining! I think everyone loves to have a diesel pulse adapter but don't want to spring the $$$ for one just yet without fully understanding what it can and cannot do. Since you have not answered my question from before (copied below), can I assume it is not from the SnapOn diesel pulse adapter manual?
Quote from: libbydiesel on February 10, 2014, 11:49:01 AM
The piezo adapter fires at the start of injection. The micro-expansion of the metal line is what charges the crystal pickup and it fires it's pulse when the line starts to relax which is at the actual start of injection which precisely coincides with needle lift. Yes, the piezo pickup DOES detect needle lift very accurately.
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Is this info from the SnapOn pulse adapter manual? It would be interesting to verify with an oscilloscope if the injection line pulse coincides with needle lift. Wouldn't be too difficult to set up on an engine with a needle lift injector. I think all TDI's have one. IIRC needle lift is on #3 cyl? Why did VW do that instead of on #1?
Your imagination is, in a way, interesting... Your premise seems to be that, based on your imagination, compression that is half of spec might affect injection lag on a fully warmed up engine, making a more advanced timing spec beneficial. If a more advanced timing spec might be beneficial on a vastly out of spec engine, then a pulse adapter, in all cases, is a worthless tool and everyone (seig heil) should (moral imperative) ditch all non-subjective timing tools and embrace hillbilly timing their engines.
If you want to argue the uselessness of a tool that you've never used on the basis that it can't optimize a thoroughly worn out engine, that doesn't seem either logical or useful to anyone. Although, it is, arguably, entertaining. If you have a particular beef against diesel pulse adapters, then I can probably help you imagine even more potential issues... Let's consider the dynamic advance and case pressure. If someone installs an IN bolt in the Out bolt location, the vane pump is worn out, the pressure regulator is whacked out of adjustment and the dynamic advance piston bore is gouged, the dynamic advance will not work correctly. With the dynamic advance not doing it's thing, if you use a pulse adapter to set the timing at idle, then the timing will be progressively more and more off as the rpms increase. In that case, hillbilly timing the engine so that it is timed properly for cruising rpms will return better performance and much better fuel economy. When running a worn out injection pump with no case pressure and jacked dynamic advance, a pulse adapter is the wrong tool for the job... What about injector pop pressure? Maybe that affects the start of combustion even more than compression. You might imagine that larger droplets of fuel take longer to ignite that a super-fine mist. In that case, dropping compression would reduce injection lag as the pressure difference between pop pressure and cylinder pressure will affect atomization and a lower cylinder pressure will result in a greater pressure differential. You could argue that with injector pop pressure 1/2 of spec, you imagine the tool would also be ineffective. How about if the atmosphere had a reduced oxygen content. That also might make the tool less useful. You might imagine that if you were on a different planet then a pulse adapter wouldn't be nearly as optimal for timing your 1/2 compression, 1/2 injector pop pressure VW diesel. What if you were running it on unicorn piss? Everyone knows that the BTU content of unicorn piss is much higher than no. 2 diesel but the viscosity is proportionately lower. How do you imagine that running on unicorn piss would affect the usefulness of a pulse adapter for timing your 1/2 compression, 1/2 pop pressure VW engine with worn out injection pump, while living on the planet Zuark with it's reduced oxygen atmosphere?
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This is very entertaining! I think everyone loves to have a diesel pulse adapter but don't want to spring the $$$ for one just yet without fully understanding what it can and cannot do. Since you have not answered my question from before (copied below), can I assume it is not from the SnapOn diesel pulse adapter manual?
Quote from: libbydiesel on February 10, 2014, 11:49:01 AM
The piezo adapter fires at the start of injection. The micro-expansion of the metal line is what charges the crystal pickup and it fires it's pulse when the line starts to relax which is at the actual start of injection which precisely coincides with needle lift. Yes, the piezo pickup DOES detect needle lift very accurately.
......................
Is this info from the SnapOn pulse adapter manual? It would be interesting to verify with an oscilloscope if the injection line pulse coincides with needle lift. Wouldn't be too difficult to set up on an engine with a needle lift injector. I think all TDI's have one. IIRC needle lift is on #3 cyl? Why did VW do that instead of on #1?
I read up on the function of the diesel pulse adapter before purchasing mine several years ago. I do not recall if the Snap-on manual specifically includes that info. At the risk of sounding redundant, if you doubt it, then I would welcome you to do your own research.
I happen to have a TDI (actually three), a pulse adapter and an oscilloscope but am not inclined towards accommodating your test for two reasons. The first is that it is a waste of my time as I already did do my research on the function of the piezo pickup and the diesel pulse adapter and have no reason to doubt what I previously read. The second is that I have not read up on the function of the pintle lift sensor and how it produces it's signal and so hooking up the scope to it would not give me any helpful info.
I did previously give my best best guess as to why they used #3. Which injector sends the signal to the ECU is irrelevant provided the program accommodates for which one is sending the signal. The metal lines all have to be the same length and maintaining that equal length with a tall #1 injector would be harder than doing so on the #3 which is closest to it's delivery valve.
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I agree that with an ECU, which injector to put the needle lift on does not matter. I like your explanation that it's easier to do on #3 since it's closest to the delivery valves.
I think the needle lift sensor is a variable reluctance type. If it has 2 wires and is between 30 to 1500 ohms, it most likely is VR. If it has 3 wires, it is hall effect. Wouldn't be hard to set up an O-scope to look at the outputs of the needle lift and piezo of the pulse adapter dual trace and see their relationship. If I have all the pieces, I would definitely do the test.
This is very entertaining! I think everyone loves to have a diesel pulse adapter but don't want to spring the $$$ for one just yet without fully understanding what it can and cannot do. Since you have not answered my question from before (copied below), can I assume it is not from the SnapOn diesel pulse adapter manual?
Quote from: libbydiesel on February 10, 2014, 11:49:01 AM
The piezo adapter fires at the start of injection. The micro-expansion of the metal line is what charges the crystal pickup and it fires it's pulse when the line starts to relax which is at the actual start of injection which precisely coincides with needle lift. Yes, the piezo pickup DOES detect needle lift very accurately.
......................
Is this info from the SnapOn pulse adapter manual? It would be interesting to verify with an oscilloscope if the injection line pulse coincides with needle lift. Wouldn't be too difficult to set up on an engine with a needle lift injector. I think all TDI's have one. IIRC needle lift is on #3 cyl? Why did VW do that instead of on #1?
I read up on the function of the diesel pulse adapter before purchasing mine several years ago. I do not recall if the Snap-on manual specifically includes that info. At the risk of sounding redundant, if you doubt it, then I would welcome you to do your own research.
I happen to have a TDI (actually three), a pulse adapter and an oscilloscope but am not inclined towards accommodating your test for two reasons. The first is that it is a waste of my time as I already did do my research on the function of the piezo pickup and the diesel pulse adapter and have no reason to doubt what I previously read. The second is that I have not read up on the function of the pintle lift sensor and how it produces it's signal and so hooking up the scope to it would not give me any helpful info.
I did previously give my best best guess as to why they used #3. Which injector sends the signal to the ECU is irrelevant provided the program accommodates for which one is sending the signal. The metal lines all have to be the same length and maintaining that equal length with a tall #1 injector would be harder than doing so on the #3 which is closest to it's delivery valve.
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I think you guys are working from a bunch of unfounded assumptions and confusing some different concepts.
First of all being able to "set" the timing with a fancy piezo sensor or a luminosity probe only gives you a more repeatable way to set the timing at the same point. This does not correlate to the "best" setting in any way.
If you think that you have found the holy grail if injector timing you are deluding yourself. I have played with the IP timing on close to 100 IDIs over the years and I can tell you that each one has its own sweet spot. I can also tell you that when you find the sweet spot it will run better that it ever has before. Setting with the IP dial indicator or the luminosity probe won't find the sweet spot. However, once you find the sweet spot, it can help you repeat the setting ON THAT ENGINE. The sweet spot on the next engine is most likely somewhere else. In other words, you need to find the sweet spot on one particular engine and then find out where it is set with you timing tool, what ever it is. Then you can always go back to it.
As I said before, its all relative....
Now, you can piss and moan about worn engines and pumps lousing up your perfect world of IP timing, but we live in the real world. A world where compression is uneven, pop pressures are uneven, internal leakage in the head differs. You holy grail of IP timing will not help you there, until you find the sweet spot and figure out where your tools says it is.
FWIW IDIs will start fairly well at 250 psi compression as long as it doesn't get too cold. Say below 45*F. There were also lots of then running around with horrible injectors.: widely varying pop pressures, squirting rather than spraying, sticking pintles,etc. And they were still running around getting 35 mpg.
So the idea that we are only dealing with things as they should be is a fallacy.
In addition, if you think that air temp, spray pattern, and compression do not greatly effect the start of combustion you need to pay a bit more attention. It is quite common to see a diesel with a good glow plugs but lower compression in one cylinder to carry that hole on start up for 30 seconds or a minute in very cold weather. So it seems that the delta here between compression temps is significant at any given point in the cycle.
FWIW I used to have the Snap On luminosity probe set up, but I sold it years ago, because it was not telling me what I needed to know in terms of making the cars that I was working on run better. I wish I still had it to play with for hobby stuff. I piezo set up would be the most fun, though.
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I see the benefit of the pulse adapter over the dial indicator, and I also see how different engines in different states will have different sweet spots, making setting 'by the book', with either method above, of limited value. But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?
Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? What range from extreme to extreme are we looking at?
And again, what output would you see if you monitored the needle lift and crank sensor? Simply a voltage spike?
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But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?
In testing a wide variety of engines/pumps/injectors with the diesel pulse adapter, provided the dynamic advance is working properly, the 'sweet spot' is within 1/2° of 12°BTDC with my setup. That wide array of engines/pumps/injectors includes both fresh and well-worn VW IDI, VW TDI and Mercedes IDI engines with both fresh and well-worn pumps/injectors. On the VWs, I have also checked the plunger lift on several setups in order to find what the plunger lift measurement coincides to with a particular pump or set of injectors. The plunger lift setting can vary fairly significantly but the 'sweet spot' with the pulse adapter does not. I also recently used the pulse adapter to time a freshly rebuilt 1.6TD injection pump on a good condition engine with freshly rebuilt injectors set to spec opening pressure. Because I was sending the pump and injectors to a friend who does not have a pulse adapter, I tested the plunger lift with the dial indicator so he could repeat it. It came out to exactly 1.05mm which coincides conveniently with the VW spec. Several years ago I did the reverse on another friend's engine. We installed a freshly rebuilt injection pump with fresh injectors on his freshly rebuilt engine and then timed it using the dial indicator to 1.05mm. I then checked his timing using the pulse adapter and strobe and it was precisely 12°.
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Kind of what I expected really. So, setting by injection pulse timing is preferable to the dial indicator (we are trying to time injection after all, dial indicator isnt necessarily telling us this due to breaking pressure etc), and it gets it very near to the sweet spot. So using a device like this for initial setting, then testing (a la hillbilly/ norwegian dyno run etc) either side of initial setting would be the best way for us to time these mtdis up well.
The 1st time I set up an mtdi i messed with the timing a lot, using the dial. The 2nd time, i did it by ear and it runs fine. Id like to find that sweet spot for sure tho, and being able to measure with a device like this has to be the most convenient method.
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Hillbilly timing on MTDi engine i don't find as easy as an idi.
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But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?
In testing a wide variety of engines/pumps/injectors with the diesel pulse adapter, provided the dynamic advance is working properly, the 'sweet spot' is within 1/2° of 12°BTDC with my setup. That wide array of engines/pumps/injectors includes both fresh and well-worn VW IDI, VW TDI and Mercedes IDI engines with both fresh and well-worn pumps/injectors. On the VWs, I have also checked the plunger lift on several setups in order to find what the plunger lift measurement coincides to with a particular pump or set of injectors. The plunger lift setting can vary fairly significantly but the 'sweet spot' with the pulse adapter does not. I also recently used the pulse adapter to time a freshly rebuilt 1.6TD injection pump on a good condition engine with freshly rebuilt injectors set to spec opening pressure. Because I was sending the pump and injectors to a friend who does not have a pulse adapter, I tested the plunger lift with the dial indicator so he could repeat it. It came out to exactly 1.05mm which coincides conveniently with the VW spec. Several years ago I did the reverse on another friend's engine. We installed a freshly rebuilt injection pump with fresh injectors on his freshly rebuilt engine and then timed it using the dial indicator to 1.05mm. I then checked his timing using the pulse adapter and strobe and it was precisely 12°.
I am going to pull the trigger on this eventually, but I am wondering what affects an injection pump with the advance section modified would have? On these pumps that we new or rebuilt, did you have one with the advance section modded to give more dynamic advance into the pump? I ask as I have that Giles pump and that is where I am at with that.
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Having more overall advance does not necessarily change the advance curve until you are above the rpm where the stock pump would stop advancing.
If the dynamic advance doesn't match the engine rpm properly then timing the engine properly is not possible with any method. If it advances too quickly, you will either have it very clattery at higher rpms (if you set the timing well for idle) or a dog off the line (if you set the timing for higher rpms). If the advance is too slow then the reverse is true.
If the advance curve is correct then a proper timing spec for the entire rpm range is possible. In that case, any timing method can arrive at that 'sweet spot' and of the timing methods I have used (dial indicator, hillbilly and pulse adapter) the pulse adapter is the quickest, easiest and most accurate way to do so.
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Giles just says since he builds so much dynamic advance into the pump the static timing isn't as nessesary. He says to shoot for .90-.95mm on my pump is why I ask.
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One of the sweetest things about the pulse adapter is it lets you return to a known spot in seconds after havign something apart for service. Also you can use it to check you advance function and curve, which you will never accomplish by hilbilly.
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But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?
In testing a wide variety of engines/pumps/injectors with the diesel pulse adapter, provided the dynamic advance is working properly, the 'sweet spot' is within 1/2° of 12°BTDC with my setup. That wide array of engines/pumps/injectors includes both fresh and well-worn VW IDI, VW TDI and Mercedes IDI engines with both fresh and well-worn pumps/injectors. On the VWs, I have also checked the plunger lift on several setups in order to find what the plunger lift measurement coincides to with a particular pump or set of injectors. The plunger lift setting can vary fairly significantly but the 'sweet spot' with the pulse adapter does not.
That is not something you could know unless you are doing some kind of performance testing at different timing specs. They may all run well at your 12* setting but you can only know if its the sweet spot by performance testing other settings as well. Are you saying that you did this on some large number of VW diesels.
FWIW It strains your credibility that every one you "tested" ran best in the same spot.
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But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?
In testing a wide variety of engines/pumps/injectors with the diesel pulse adapter, provided the dynamic advance is working properly, the 'sweet spot' is within 1/2° of 12°BTDC with my setup. That wide array of engines/pumps/injectors includes both fresh and well-worn VW IDI, VW TDI and Mercedes IDI engines with both fresh and well-worn pumps/injectors. On the VWs, I have also checked the plunger lift on several setups in order to find what the plunger lift measurement coincides to with a particular pump or set of injectors. The plunger lift setting can vary fairly significantly but the 'sweet spot' with the pulse adapter does not.
That is not something you could know unless you are doing some kind of performance testing at different timing specs. They may all run well at your 12* setting but you can only know if its the sweet spot by performance testing other settings as well. Are you saying that you did this on some large number of VW diesels.
FWIW It strains your credibility that every one you "tested" ran best in the same spot.
I see your point toby. You are thinking that if he hasn't tested 6 degrees bTDC then how would he know that 12 bTDC is best? Maybe he can chime in on how he started this way? Maybe he timed by ear and then ran it at a known spot and recorded where he liked it best with the light? Maybe he used the dial indicator and timed it to each .01mm from .90 to 1.20?
I think it is kind of like my old ford 400. I had 2 of them, my friends had them as well. With the 9 or 10 we had we played with timing settings from 0 TDC to 30 TDC until we found that all of them liked around 15-18 bTDC IIRC as the best for all our trucks and broncos. Now granted this wasn't 500,000 vehicles of testing, but it was enough that we all knew that they did the best performance wise to all of our "hill tests" and butt dynos that we went with it. Also, since I was the only one with the light they were not changing it in between, so we would do a day of running it and report back. Some of it was personal preference, as we all wanted the snap off idle, but with the short and long bed trucks and broncos we were all about the same on the timing we liked. Say all that to say this, Libbydiesel may have only tested a few and his results are best for what he likes. It sounds like he has timed at least 10 vw diesels in various different models and they all seem to run best for him from 11.5 to 12.5 bTDC. I think it is a little subjective to what you or I may like, as you could possibly want the power to come on differently than he does, but I don't think he is saying this is the "only" setting. I took it as this is the one that he found best and if you use a similar adapter it probably would be a great idea to start there. Also, with different pumps he was saying that the dial indicator plunger lift setting varied, but his timing light didn't, so I would think that would add to the credibility not take away.
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I think it might be sort of an inescapable law of physics if you have a 3" bore, prechamber and dynamic advance that it should start from right around there.
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jqVh46-FM4I/Uv7GIEVEr_I/AAAAAAAABb8/SkM0i5YHIe8/s800/I_Lag-factors.jpg)
So, bore change can create compression change and static timing may need to be adjusted.
12o BTDC may be a fine place to start, but performance tells all.
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no, I'm just thinking a, engine with a 4,5.or10 inch bore might need to start the fire a little sooner.
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I've come across that same 12º# in the GM 6.2, and VE pumped Cummins forums in similar conversations about pulse adapters.
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jqVh46-FM4I/Uv7GIEVEr_I/AAAAAAAABb8/SkM0i5YHIe8/s800/I_Lag-factors.jpg)
The only factor in that list that is engine specific is compression. Lower compression has an effect on cold start and pre-warm up operation but, as I've said before, does not seem to have any significant effect on the optimal timing once the engine is fully warmed up.
I've come across that same 12º# in the GM 6.2, and VE pumped Cummins forums in similar conversations about pulse adapters.
That's interesting to note. I haven't frequented any of the GM or Cummins forums and yet came to the same conclusion independently. It's also interesting to note that the Cummins 12v engines had a 17:1 compression ratio instead of the VW IDI 23:1 ratio.
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So then your *12* is best* was from a "thought experiment" and not from actually data. Or perhaps you read it somewhere?
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How could you possibly come to that conclusion? Bizarre. You probably ought to read this thread.
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I think he didn't.
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Oh, no I did read the thread. I asked him whether he had ever done any real world data gathering to substantiate his 12* +/- .5* for all kraut diesels and he went off waxing about theory. In almost every case where someone states categorically that such & such is the case and presents unreasonably exact data there is a reason. Whether it is wishful thinking, or self deception, or fabrication, one can never be sure. In the real world the best empirical data has an error/noise rate of more than the 1/730 that he is claiming. (.138%)
It is not believable that every diesel motor would run best when set at the same timing at idle. A motor with an IP with a faster advance curve will almost always run better if the timing at idle is retarded a bit from what most VW diesels come with. Conversely if the IP advance curve is slower, that motor will run way better with the timing at idle is more advanced, since that way the timing will be closer to optimum in the RPM range where most of the driving is done.
LD claims that is not the case.
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I'm certain though I am speaking for him... He has tested his theories on more than a few engines.. He alone has 3 home built vanagon tdis, a benz 300d and a vnt 1.6 rabbit.
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Oh, no I did read the thread. I asked him whether he had ever done any real world data gathering to substantiate his 12* +/- .5* for all kraut diesels and he went off waxing about theory. In almost every case where someone states categorically that such & such is the case and presents unreasonably exact data there is a reason. Whether it is wishful thinking, or self deception, or fabrication, one can never be sure. In the real world the best empirical data has an error/noise rate of more than the 1/730 that he is claiming. (.138%)
It is not believable that every diesel motor would run best when set at the same timing at idle. A motor with an IP with a faster advance curve will almost always run better if the timing at idle is retarded a bit from what most VW diesels come with. Conversely if the IP advance curve is slower, that motor will run way better with the timing at idle is more advanced, since that way the timing will be closer to optimum in the RPM range where most of the driving is done.
LD claims that is not the case.
He stated several times that this is provided "an advance section that is functioning properly"....even so, if it wasn't no timing method would be ideal I wouldn't think.
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Timing for performance is what works best on every single diesel or gasoline in real world time. Time it for what works best in your world. Is 12* best? I doubt it, none of the diesels I've ever timed were anywhere near the same. They all sound different, they all start differently, they all perform the same though. Butt-dyno at my 1000 foot elevation on all of them is the best real world for timing.
He stated several times that this is provided "an advance section that is functioning properly"....even so, if it wasn't no timing method would be ideal I wouldn't think.
Yeah, but the amount of different advance systems out there.. I have seen personally like 7 different timing piston springs, across four completely different timing pistons. Would this then not mean that all those engines need a different static timing value to start from?
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Timing for performance is what works best on every single diesel or gasoline in real world time. Time it for what works best in your world. Is 12* best? I doubt it, none of the diesels I've ever timed were anywhere near the same. They all sound different, they all start differently, they all perform the same though. Butt-dyno at my 1000 foot elevation on all of them is the best real world for timing.
He stated several times that this is provided "an advance section that is functioning properly"....even so, if it wasn't no timing method would be ideal I wouldn't think.
Yeah, but the amount of different advance systems out there.. I have seen personally like 7 different timing piston springs, across four completely different timing pistons. Would this then not mean that all those engines need a different static timing value to start from?
I don't think so, the spring is only one part of the equation. Also, he only stated that they needed to work as they are supposed to. I would assume that would mean that if it was designed to function properly with that spring, then it would still work. He can chime in if he so wants. I am just tying logic together from what was written.
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I also see how different engines in different states will have different sweet spots, making setting 'by the book', with either method above, of limited value. But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?
Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? What range from extreme to extreme are we looking at?
Surely the answer to the above is central to the discussion? Only libby has answered the above (saying the sweet spot was usually withing half a degree of 12*).
As far as I can make out, the pulse adapter may be the best method for static timing, and everyone elses argument is, essentially, AGAINST static timing being valid, not so much that the pulse adapter is junk.
It seems to be obvious to me that some sort of static timing should be used to get near the mark, followed by some hillbilly tweaking either side, to find the sweet spot if the static timing isnt enough.
So Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? Anoybody else want to quote figures for same? Only libby has so far, people are talking about burden of proof but have offered nothing solid to counter libbys observations.
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I also see how different engines in different states will have different sweet spots, making setting 'by the book', with either method above, of limited value. But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?
Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? What range from extreme to extreme are we looking at?
Surely the answer to the above is central to the discussion? Only libby has answered the above (saying the sweet spot was usually withing half a degree of 12*).
As far as I can make out, the pulse adapter may be the best method for static timing, and everyone elses argument is, essentially, AGAINST static timing being valid, not so much that the pulse adapter is junk.
It seems to be obvious to me that some sort of static timing should be used to get near the mark, followed by some hillbilly tweaking either side, to find the sweet spot if the static timing isnt enough.
So Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? Anoybody else want to quote figures for same? Only libby has so far, people are talking about burden of proof but have offered nothing solid to counter libbys observations.
I don't wouldn't say this is just about static timing, nor that anyone has regarded the piezo as "junk". This has centered on whether a single absolute setting (e.g. 12o BTDC) can be best - across engines -... or if "best" varies by engine and can only be determined by performance.
It's doubtful that anyone has recorded a dial-position after setting an IP by performance, because it wouldn't be particularly relevant to another engine. Setting "Best" by performance is often regarded as unique to any engine and a measurement of static timing is moot - reference marks scribed on the IP and bracket are faster/easier to use as relative reference (faster than a piezo).
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I don't wouldn't say this is just about static timing, nor that anyone has regarded the piezo as "junk". This has centered on whether a single absolute setting (e.g. 12o BTDC) can be best - across engines -... or if "best" varies by engine and can only be determined by performance.
The core counter argument was talk around the difference between injection timing and combustion/flame front, and hence implying you can't use a static timing setup for anything useful due to these differences in different engines. So that argument wasn't just against pulse adapter, but but indirectly against all static timing methods. You went on to say static timing is moot, how is this not an argument against static timing?!?!
It's doubtful that anyone has recorded a dial-position after setting an IP by performance, because it wouldn't be particularly relevant to another engine.
Not sure about nobody recording a dial position after setting by performance. Surely its not just about being relevant to other engines, but also about being able to return straight to that sweet spot.
Also, if nobody has recorded these settings after setting by performance, then nobody can argue that libbys assertion that the sweet spot will usually be half a * off from 12* is wrong!! Thats why Im asking, in the real world, how far from 12* was YOUR engines sweet spot. Is 12* a brilliant starting point? IS it almost always on the money? We dont know, because only Libby has posted figures. Everybody else has rushed in to argue against, but nobody has actually stated any alternative numbers.
Setting "Best" by performance is often regarded as unique to any engine and a measurement of static timing is moot - reference marks scribed on the IP and bracket are faster/easier to use as relative reference (faster than a piezo).
You say setting best by performance is unique per engine, but you're not saying anything new, you're just echoing what has been said here a 100 times already. What we really want to know, is HOW unique. Surely you agree that this is significant?
And timing marks scribed on the bracket / pump body are useless if you switch out injectors for ones with different break pressures, as the timing will have moved as a result (the pulse adapter wouldnt suffer this tho!). What about when fitting a new pump? Or a modded pump? Or a new bracket? Lots of reasons to want a static timing reference (hence people buying and using timing dials!) where marks on the bracket aren't useful.
This thread was started to make it easier for people to use the pulse adapter system, instead its full of people implying its pointless and that libby is full of it. Nobody has yet demonstrated how pointless, by offering up figures different from libbys. Nobody has disproved the +/- half a degree from 12*, and nobody has offered any data to suggest it is greatly varied. Libby has backed up what he says is a worthy method, with numbers. Those that say otherwise should be putting up numbers too.
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I just received a Mac Diesel Pulse Tester from my co-worker. I'll check the timing this weekend if the sensor fits the line OK. There's no instructions with it but seems self-explanatory. It's been reccomended to clean the line well where the sensor attaches, and put it as close to the pump as physically possible.
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Awesome! Definitely be interested to know where you are timed at before making any adjustments too.
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I don't want to get ahead of myself but when I'm through checking mine I'd like to lend this to other interested parties who are on a similar quest.
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I just finished checking the timing in my car with the above mentioned pulse tester. I know it may be hard for some to believe the results but here goes. The adjustable timing light showed exactly 12º Believe it. I gave a whoop and ran into the house to post this. The sensor wouldn't register at first because the coupling is for a 1/4" line and it wasn't really tight enough. I shaved the contact points on the edges where it shut to make it close tighter. Initially I got a pulse only when holding it but as I turned it slightly it flashed on its own. I turned the adjustable knob on the light in both directions to verify the reading. I didn't honestly expect it to be right on the number. Dead-on balls accurate. I'm thrilled.
Rich B
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Was your initial timing hillbilly or dial gauge?
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The proof is in the pudding. ;D
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Was your initial timing hillbilly or dial gauge?
I've checked my timing with a dial indicator dozens of times since my project's inception. I've followed settings of many others with similar pumps found in dozens of searches as a guideline. This is documented a bit in this thread;http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34290.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34290.0) I've timed it by ear while running several times, checked fuel mileage etc. It always came back to the smoothest running, best mileage spot was .83mm pump lift on the dial which on my car I've determined is exactly 12º BTDC. My timing is now set. Hillbilly means nothing to me. I've tried to be as methodical and concise as possible with the tools available to me to get to this point. This forum and its contributors have provided the bulk of the most important info. overall.
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Here's a link to my first ever youtube upload.
http://youtu.be/W1qBKMAaHMc (http://youtu.be/W1qBKMAaHMc)
You can see the zero in the strobe and the timing light knob is at 12. Look closely. It's an iPhone vid so whatever.
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The tester:
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg45/rbremiller62/file_zpsbccf1b26.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg45/rbremiller62/file_zps7e39e8c5.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg45/rbremiller62/file_zps56f4f479.jpg) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg45/rbremiller62/file_zpsd97cc9dc.jpg)
I must say the tester worked very well. Easy to use. It would be more improved with a correct sized (6mm) pick-up. As Andrew stated earlier in this thread they're available for about $60.00.
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I managed to snag one on eBay last night... (Snap-on brand). Stoked. Looking forward to trying it out.
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rich, looks nearer 11 not 12 on that photo!...
Good one Rich anyways. Looking forward to seeing data from a few more people. Am already sold on the benefits of this system. Regardless of how near to 12* the 'sweet spot' is, looks like a great static timing tool, (I hate the dial indicator method). But think ill be making something using lift sensor and crank position sensor and an arduino instead of buying pulse adapter gizmo.
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rich, looks nearer 11 not 12 on that photo!...
Good one Rich anyways. Looking forward to seeing data from a few more people. Am already sold on the benefits of this system. Regardless of how near to 12* the 'sweet spot' is, looks like a great static timing tool, (I hate the dial indicator method). But think ill be making something using lift sensor and crank position sensor and an arduino instead of buying pulse adapter gizmo.
It's really just the angle of the camera; timing light is in the other hand. When I say 12º, it was most certainly that. The vid shows it better actually. I'm not filming it again for any reason regardless. I have no reason to go this far with work then BS people about results. I expect naysayers due to where this thread has been; but I continue on in the service of knowledge. :)
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I don't want to get ahead of myself but when I'm through checking mine I'd like to lend this to other interested parties who are on a similar quest.
I've made arrangements to lend this to one of the members to check their timing. They'll have it for a few weeks. PM me if interested next.
Rich
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Great find and follow up. It is really nice when there is repeatable results with 2 different timing pulse adapters and lights. Glad you had so much timing by ear and gauge beforehand to follow this up with. Great news. I would love to get my hands on one of these for a day :D
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Mine is 1/4" too. It worked well at first but eventually needed the high spots filed down so it would close tighter for the 6mm lines.
On Rabbits isn't the square block of metal near the timing mark 12?
The '84 Rabbit has numbered timing marks on the flywheel. Someone got a pic with a tape measure?
All this talk of static timing is nice but I think most of our problems start in the dynamic range.
After all, how much time do we spend idleing?
The thinner fuel messes with the pressure regulator's curve.
Using the pulse adapter to find the best timing for 2500RPM would be nice.
Maybe someone will find a way to use one of these pulse detectors and a TDC sensor, to plot the timing curve on a graph in excel,.. maybe ;D
Anyone who thinks Andrew tried 12 and stopped there, never trying another setting; doesn't understand the basics of how his mind works.
Some of us use a dial gauge to set the pump within range or to a number we are told to and never check to see if it would run better somewhere else, (then brag about how profesionals use this method, while slamming hillbilly tuning as primative,... sorry I digress).
I can't imagine Andrew doing that with a dial gauge, or a pulse detector. Not sure how anyone can.
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You don't need anything fancy to plot the timing curve.
run at 1000 RPM, advance knob till o shows at the pointer, write your advance number down
" @1500
" @2000
" @2500
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On Rabbits isn't the square block of metal near the timing mark 12?
Yeah that is what I thought. Anyone care to confirm? Could mark it and use a regular timing light then could we not?
In process of picking up both the adjustable light and the adapter so we should have a couple of these pieces of equipment around. Time to update the loaner tool page.
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My mechanic says the timing advance on the light isn't very accurate so I've been using marks.
I know contrair to what others are saying but he's an old fart and his opinion is usually based on trial and error.
745 I know graphing the timing curve in excel and having it so it prints out it's a high tech solution to a low tech problem.
That's common these days, ha.
I've been thinking about it for years and working on it for almost a year and it's probably really close.
The code needs a little adjusting, one more parts order and some testing should do it.
I got it to somewhat graph the timing curve on (Pa)Tina once and my curve looked bad.
Hard to find a place to tap into the ferret 765 without effecting the circuit. I might have to build my own pulse detector circuit.
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I would think accuracy of the light has more to do with the brand and the age of the equipment. I bet you could verify the accuracy pretty quickly by running it in comparison with a light that doesn't have the fancy adjustment. Shoot a gasser engine with the degree scale with the low tech light and read the number. Then connect the hight tech and zero out the light on the scale by moving the knob. Read the dial and see what you get between the two.
Or am I messed up on this?
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Well my snap - on adapter showed up but the injection line clamp isn't there. The seller decided to refund be $25 for that, but the price from snap - on for just the clamp is $395.00 which ain't happening. Grrr.... So I've got half of a pulse adapter!
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VanBcGuy, Is this the MT 257 model? I have use of rbremillers MAC for a bit and I just picked up on an older Snap-On MT254 Lumy adapter. My trouble is the special tube that goes into the glowplug spot is meant for the Izuzu Pup engine. They have really long GP's and so trying this adapter in the glow plug hole in a head that is off the engine I saw it was about 3/4 of an inch too long. So I was all over town looking for a fitting that would go into the head and allow me to insert the adapter into it instead and take up that 3/4 of an inch. No one sells metric threads in this town. Very few at one place that allow folks to use standard 1/8 inch American brass on Honda or VW or Toyo. engines for an oil gauge setup but that is it.
Going to look at Grangier tonight in hopes they have one. I will be near one of their places tomorrow and can pick it up when out of town.
The Tiny tach 6 mm pick up works on the MAC so that might be your only means of getting the unit functional. The seller did give you some of the price back so it won't cost all that much more to make it work. What good is it if it won't work?
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VanBcGuy, Is this the MT 257 model? I have use of rbremillers MAC for a bit and I just picked up on an older Snap-On MT254 Lumy adapter. My trouble is the special tube that goes into the glowplug spot is meant for the Izuzu Pup engine. They have really long GP's and so trying this adapter in the glow plug hole in a head that is off the engine I saw it was about 3/4 of an inch too long. So I was all over town looking for a fitting that would go into the head and allow me to insert the adapter into it instead and take up that 3/4 of an inch. No one sells metric threads in this town. Very few at one place that allow folks to use standard 1/8 inch American brass on Honda or VW or Toyo. engines for an oil gauge setup but that is it.
Going to look at Grangier tonight in hopes they have one. I will be near one of their places tomorrow and can pick it up when out of town.
The Tiny tach 6 mm pick up works on the MAC so that might be your only means of getting the unit functional. The seller did give you some of the price back so it won't cost all that much more to make it work. What good is it if it won't work?
Yep, it's the MT 257. Good tip on the Tiny Tach transducer - $58 is a whole lot better than $395. The MAC adapter is apparently identical to the Snap-On one internally from what I've heard so it should work. With the partial refund I got that makes it much more appealing. Order submitted!
Sorting out the adapter for the luminosity probe sounds like "fun"... Those glow plug holes are pretty small and recessed pretty deeply.
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If the internals are the same then I know the transducer will work. I have a Tiny Tach and I installed the lead from Richs MAC to it and got the red LED to blink in time like the one he provided. The TT actually worked better because of the smaller 6 mm diameter. His 1/4 inch reduced down by file was still a little touchy.
So, good you will have what you need. I didn't find my reducer so I think reducing the total length of the Lumy adapter is in order. Only one more thing to check and that is threads on the adapter. Will they work in the VW holes. I almost forgot that they might be slightly different than the Izuzu pup engines.
Later DAS
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I read through the manual of my adapter today - it specifically mentioned luminosity adapters too in terms of relative differences in timing. It said that the pulse adapter will read about 8-10 degrees more advance than a luminosity adapter, just as a data point for consideration.
That would put the ideal advance as measured by the luminosity probe at about 2-4 degrees versus about 12 on the pulse adapter.
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I found a manual for the MT 480 Snap on tool and they describe a proceedure for the GM and Chevys but then another for the VW/Audi engines. They talk 12 BTDC on the pluse adapter and 20 degrees on the Luminosity detection. One is getting signal at the top end of the injector and the other senses the actual flash in the combustion chamber. Well after TDC or you would be on the upstroke of the piston and we all know that noise don't we.
I did get an advancing timing light today in the mail. Craigslist special, Snap on early version, no tach.
Lumy gets it to flash on the bench.
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Oops, backwards math on my side I guess!
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I would think accuracy of the light has more to do with the brand and the age of the equipment. I bet you could verify the accuracy pretty quickly by running it in comparison with a light that doesn't have the fancy adjustment. Shoot a gasser engine with the degree scale with the low tech light and read the number. Then connect the hight tech and zero out the light on the scale by moving the knob. Read the dial and see what you get between the two.
Or am I messed up on this?
The accuracy can be easily checked if you have timing marks on the flywheel.
Just set it for 0 degrees advanced and see where it points. Then advance the timing light until it shines right on the timing mark and compare.
It would be easy to see if my mechanic is right. He was selling me his timing light when he mentioned the noticed inaccuracy of the advance setting on the snap-on timing light.
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The pulse adapter & strob is only usefull if you have a stock engine in good shape and a stock pump in good shape, it can be accurate for the mechanical timing but not optimal for the timing curve, but close enough if all is in good shape, a good tool overall for stock or lightly modded IDI engine.
If you have an E TDI, you don't need it, Vag-Com do it for you.
Now if you'r into M-TDI, it's completely useless, since what matter is the dynamic timing at the end, and the timing curve you need will be very different from a stock set-up to a modified one.
To first find the proper curve you need, you have to look at how much fuel you need for your goal/set-up and how much time (crank degrée rotation) it take to inject the amount you want, and then do your calculation, your goal is to not to inject too much fuel after TDC, if timing need to be too advanced, then increase inj. pressure or enlarge nozzle hole.
I've found the pulse adaptor does not work very well past 1500rpm, and even.... you need to take into consideration the load on your pump when you check the timing, it's impossible to do at neutral, you have to drive the car at various rpm and load.
Best to do if you have an M-TDI, is to tune an ECU in a way to be able to use it for timing reading only and with the help of vag-com log to tune your pump dynamic timing.
Another way is to bench test the pump and tune it according to the curve you need.
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If you know your timing advance curve is correct then it is totally helpful to set the static timing.
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If you know your timing advance curve is correct then it is totally helpful to set the static timing.
Exactly, yes, that's what this tool is for.
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I received the TinyTach line clamp today - it looks IDENTICAL to the Snap-On one in the user manual (at least from the line drawing). Hopefully they really do work together!
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/13586361905_c236be1b66.jpg)
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The clamp that came with my Tiny Tach was not like that. It was not meant for quick removal I guess. Two small hex head screws it had. That one looks more like the one on the MAC pulse adapter. Funny that I have the Lumy Snap on pulse adapter MT 254 and it looks every bit like your MT 257, but works on a different principle for the flash in the cylinder to set off the timing light. That has me thinking that it might just be possible to hook a secondary wire to the ones where the optical ends and see if the Tiny Tach clamp will fire it off. I may just have a combo adapter. I can check the fire in the hole and the click on the top side too?
Across the states for awhile so not near the tool to find out. Going to be a weekend experiment when I get back for sure.
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Found an '84 flywheel:
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5791/sxzm.jpg) (http://img22.imageshack.us/i/sxzm.jpg/)
As you can see the 12 degree mark is right in the middle of the metal block/standoff.
The distance from 0 to 20 degrees was 41.25mm.
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I've found the pulse adaptor does not work very well past 1500rpm, and even.... you need to take into consideration the load on your pump when you check the timing, it's impossible to do at neutral, you have to drive the car at various rpm and load.
I am having this problem as well with my newly acquired Mac pulse adapter. I'm using a known good Ferrett 84 advance light with tach, but for some reason I'm not getting accurate rpm readings while using the pulse adapter. At idle it reads a steady 940 rpm which seems correct to me, but with even the slightest increase in speed that reading quickly doubles and by the time mid-range rpm is reached i'm seeing a reading of 6k+. I'm using the 6mm piezo clamp as tight as I can get it by hand and have it mounted at the #1 (timing belt side) injector on a well sanded fuel line. Does anyone have any ideas as to what the problem could be, and would it be safe to say that timing readings above idle can't be trusted with it acting like this?
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I'd guess noise, maybe try damping the lines.
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Be sure the pick-up is clamped next to the line nut where it leaves the pump. Line clamps should be in place also.
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Since the #1 and #4 hit TDC at the same mark you might get less vibration. Just my thoughts.
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Now that you mention it.
I've read better than 1500 before but not much.
I think the line expands then might not have time to shrink at higher RPMs.
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Thanks for the suggestions, I experimented with it a bit this evening and never could get accurate rpm readings above about 1500, but at idle my light seams to give very precise advance readings. The light even jived with the 0 - 15 degree marks that I just etched onto my crank pulley, so with fair confidence in my equipment and method, here is an overview of my findings. - This is an AHU with a stock Land Rover 300 pump.
My dial indicator timing setting when I first installed the pump was 1.25mm. I had only previously experimented with it in the 1.15 - 1.25 range. The engine had always pulled very strong almost right off idle, but quickly fell on it's face just past mid-range with egts always sky rocketing to an easy 1500+ with high load high rpm accelerations.
Unfortunately I didn't think to take a dial indicator reading before messing with it again, but I think last time around I had set back to 1.25. Whatever that setting was I got a strobe light reading of only 9° BTDC when I checked it today which confirmed my growing theory that all along I had been suffering from (injection timing) retardation. Since I had been thinking about advancing my timing anyway, I decided to give this 12° thing a go that everyones been talking about.
I cranked my pump back to a strobe reading of 12 BTDC, unstressed all the lines, then proceeded to put my dial indicator on and take a reading the old-fashion way. This gave me a result of exactly 1.40 mm which seems to be the upper range of what I had heard from a few other people and way out of the range I had ever used.
Just getting back from a quick test drive, I am very impressed with the results. Right off the batt I do notice more turbo lag at low rpm but this is more than made up for in mid-range thrust. Power delivery is still linear but it now has more of that turbo-car kick and in a more usable rpm range to boot. Torque steer is more pronounced, it accelerates noticably faster and EGTs are noticably lower at high speeds.
I think I will leave it at this and see how it does for awhile. When I install my bigger turbo and a taller 5th gear though, a slightly lower setting might be ideal so I will definately revisit it later.
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Nice summary and results. I think we are learning something here about our pumps and age and equipment matching. I would have not gone to 1.4 either. But that is what it takes to get to the 12 degree mark where things seem to be designed to work best.
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Interesting! I had read elsewhere that the Rover pump should be set at 1.45mm - which is pretty darn close to your measured 1.40mm. Excellent!
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Great info. Another 'confirmation'. ;)
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This experiment has made me see why people spend $$ on professionally tuned engine specific pumps. The fact that I lost bottom end power by moving the pump's max advance point closer to the sweet spot of the engine tells me that a pump with a slightly wider advance range would be a great improvement. Oddly though, from what I've seen the 300TDI engine that this pump was originally on doesn't redline very much lower than the VWs.
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Don't forget about the big "E" word - emissions. Advance causes NOx levels to rise. As a result the "factory" timing curve doesn't necessarily have as much advance built in to it as it would if performance was the only concern.
And yeah, this is exactly the point where a pro with an electronic pump calibration bench PLUS extensive experience with the engine in question becomes very very valuable. Or alternatively where suddenly the e-TDI starts to shine.
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...............................................
I've found the pulse adaptor does not work very well past 1500rpm, and even.... you need to take into consideration the load on your pump when you check the timing, it's impossible to do at neutral, you have to drive the car at various rpm and load.
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Tintin, can you provide more details on this please? Is this 1500 rpm limit on any particular brand of pulse adapters, or all of them? Is this limit applicable to rpm measurements only, or strobe measurements, or both? And finally, why does it have this limitation? Is it due to the timing light, or the pulse adapter, or something else?
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Someone alluded above that the lines don't have time to relax properly between injection events at higher RPMs. The piezo clamp works based on physical changes to the line itself (it expands slightly when pressurized) so this is an easy one to imagine.
As to the second part (load) these pumps have load dependant timing. The amount of advance at say 2500 RPM with low load is not the same as when the accelerator is pressed down. So you can't really measure the actual timing under load with a strobe in neutral.
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Finally used my pulse adapter on my engine today. And yes I can confirm that the $50 TinyTach clamp works fine with the Snap-On box, so if you have a Snap-On box and don't want to pay them $300 for a new clamp the TinyTach one is great! I found that the clamp did not work reliably at all near the pump, but works great when attached to the #1 line near the injector.
I actually dropped my timing back from 1.40 to 1.30 today as the clatter was overwhelming. I think my great big .275 injectors have the same effect as advancing the timing a bit since the actual injection duration is probably extremely short versus stock nozzles - the entire injection event likely only takes a fraction of the time of stock .183 or whatever nozzles. With my timing at 1.30 I read 8º advanced, so it was probably pretty darn close to 12º when I had it set to 1.40 initially.
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Yes!!! That Tinytach clamp has to go towards the injector. Now that you have it purring and have the two measurements mech dial and strobe degrees you can play around with it a bit. With those big wide nozzles going I wonder if the fuel cycle is that much different than stock. You build pressure against the needle same as stock before it pops right. Still 130 or something BAR? So the delivery time is still controlled by the pressure that way. It would be the shut down time that would be different. All that volume going through a bigger opening would do so much faster. So the swirl time would be longer and the mix better. Detention occurs when compression gets high enough to light it off.
Or am I in need of drink?
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Combustion begins with the pilot spray (the first "pop" of two stage injectors) and continues until all fuel is burned - if the injector sprays longer then you keep burning longer. There's not really any mixing time after injection, combustion starts as soon as the fuel hits the hot air. That's why the timing adjustment is so picky.
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Finally used my pulse adapter on my engine today. And yes I can confirm that the $50 TinyTach clamp works fine with the Snap-On box, so if you have a Snap-On box and don't want to pay them $300 for a new clamp the TinyTach one is great! I found that the clamp did not work reliably at all near the pump, but works great when attached to the #1 line near the injector.
I actually dropped my timing back from 1.40 to 1.30 today as the clatter was overwhelming. I think my great big .275 injectors have the same effect as advancing the timing a bit since the actual injection duration is probably extremely short versus stock nozzles - the entire injection event likely only takes a fraction of the time of stock .183 or whatever nozzles. With my timing at 1.30 I read 8º advanced, so it was probably pretty darn close to 12º when I had it set to 1.40 initially.
Can you post a pic of the Tinytach piezo? Is the opening round or square? I picked up a used MAC Tools ET18DPM diesel pulse adapter. It looks like it's had very little use once I cleaned off the dust and dirt on the case. Manual still inside. Works fine on my Mercedes with nice and steady RPM and strobe readings but on my Jetta, it jumps all over the place. I am going to clean the #1 injector line better and remove the injector line clamps and see if that helps.
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I will try and pic one tomorrow if it isn't raining. I want to do the compare and contrast thing with the two adapters I have. Been trying for a month or more on that. I have a Tiny Tach and it is working well and the clamp is right on top so pic be easy to do.
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Can you also get a pic of what the 12 deg BTDC mark looks like on the flywheel? On my 92 Eco, it's rectangular 1/8 x 1/2" but does not look anything like the pic Fatmobile posted earlier.
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I think the tab you are looking at is the 12 degree one. Sounds like what I have. Didn't get to doing the compare and contrast thing. Mom needed a drive to the Ocean, a walk and a pizza. Will go grab a picture before the sun goes down.
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OK, here you go. One from the top looking down then the 45 degree view from the end of the block and then sideways for a look at height above the injector nut. This is on the #4 cyl just in case you are wondering. RPM is RPM don't matter which one I am measuring on the block. I can see in the photos that I never did clean the fuel lines before attaching the take off. Hasn't been a problem either.
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/IMG-20140511-00390_zps094c2caa.jpg)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/1c79ce51-446e-47f2-a35f-cf34587d9458_zps327b2a99.jpg)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/IMG-20140511-00392_zps8ec25b83.jpg)
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A bit different from the ones they are selling now... Pic of mine in post #107 of this thread.
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The one in Post #107 is the same one that came with the MAC tool I have on loan from another forum member. Fabricated for more on and off applications I think. Temporary for timing purposes not hard install as the tach would normally be on long term.
Can't really re tool it either. I like the simple two bolts and done application myself. I can touch the MAC sensor wire to the tach sensor and get better results than if I use the supplied adapter.
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The line clamp is suitable for permanent installation (that's what they sell it for after all) but the electrical connection is definitely lacking for anything other than occasional use.
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OK, Twas sunny and very nice in the driveway today so I pulled out the optical and the pulse adapters and the timing light. Also dug out the timing dial gauge and all the needed sockets to do a multitude of timing setups.
I started with my base setting of 85 on the dial gauge just to test out the process. That being set the timing to the desired dial mm number, Spin engine by hand and recheck setting. Then pull the dial off and set it up to run and take two measurements. One with the Pulse adapter located about 3/4 of an inch above the injector nut and the other with the Optical (Lumy) adapter. I worked up the scale to 110 mm and then picked up the 70 and 80 measures on the bottom. Once I had all the readings I wanted I rest the timing to 88 as per label on the strut.
The base setting I had 85 mm was giving me 33 mpg in the stop and go city traffic on my short 3 mile jaunts to work. Temps in the 40s generally during that time. And ran the car for 450 miles between last fillup. I added an extra five gallons to the tank some time in March.
So the results are charted below and I just have to wonder why my pump does not get down to the 12 degree mark that I was expecting at the lower settings. Or at the base setting for that matter. Perhaps my internal IP pressure is too high, and I am running some advance at idle al the time? I have read that one might need to run the idle at 1000 RPM doing this sort of thing but I kept mine in the 840-870 RPM range. On the chart the red line is the Pulse adapter and the left axis is the scale, on the right is the Optical readings per mm setting. I threw in the linear trend line to see how well it lined up and to allow others to perhaps get to the numbers one would expect to be here. I am not sure why there is that stairstep effect going with the optical readings. Maybe I was not aligned with the pointer dead on.
Just the same a lot of time to make all the adjustments and double check all the process.
Open for discussion on what we can learn here.
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/DieselTimings_zps8235d993.jpg)
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Nice work.
Couple thoughts... what is the pop pressure on the injectors?
WRT the reading at low settings, maybe the tach pickup is not the correct polarity? If the timing instrument is designed to register when the line relaxes, the polarity of the element in the pickup would be critical, no? Whereas with the tach, polarity wouldn't necessarily matter.
"If the acquisition circuitry is designed to capture a specific polarity of pulse, it will be necessary to define the
direction of the force and the desired polarity of the output signal in order to guarantee the device will
consistently work in the desired application. "
http://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/Supplier%20Content/PUI_668/PDF/PUI_UsingaPiezoBenderasaSwitch.pdf?redirected=1
(End of page 2)
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Pop pressure on injectors is not verified and may be some of my smoke on heavy throttle, like between 2nd and 3rd. I did find a small mechanics shop that specializes in foreign cars that has a pop tester on his bench but he says he doesn't rebuild them anymore. He just sends them to Portland. But he did offer to take all the injectors I have, 12 of them and tell me which ones would need rebuilding and which were in spec. I thought about offering to buy the pop tester but didn't at the time.
Interesting on the polarity thing. I have not read that before but will see if it makes any difference today. I have two of them, one for the pulse adapter and one for the Tiny Tach. Which was the one I used as it clamps tighter than the modified 1/4 on that is in the adapter kit. I was also thinking that position on the line wouldn't matter either but just for grins I may try moving in from the injector to the back of the IP. It shouldn't change as the pulse is the same down the line correct?
I also have a pressure gauge on the IP. I may pull that regualtor out and tap the pin out and reset it at a lower pressure at 1000 RPM. And since I have two gauges that read pressure, oil and IP. I might see if the IP gauge is off at all. Yeah, trying to work out the variables.
OK, till this evening then.
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I bumped my timing from 1.30 up to 1.38mm today. I've noticed some smoke that was a little lighter than I was expecting. After I changed the battery in my pulse adapter (left it on last time I used it - Doh) it measured at exactly 10 degrees versus 8 degrees when I had it at 1.30mm. So with my pump and injectors anyways 0.08mm equals 2 degrees.
Oh and my engine is running noticeably smoother... :-)
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Hhmm..... Maybe because they all have a different sweet spot?
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Not sure what you are implying?
I started initially at 1.40. To me the engine sounded extra diesely, though I was moving from an IDI to a DI with monster injectors. I backed it off to see if I liked how it behaved better. Answer was NOPE, so I advanced it upwards again. I never took a reading at 1.40 previously, I just assumed it was probably too advanced. Thanks to my tester I can now say it was actually just a hair over 10 degrees which is a totally fine setting.
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Not sure what you are implying?
I think that two identical engines may actually run differently at the same injection timing setting, because their respective injection pumps are not actually perfectly identical, and vary slightly because of differences in wear and calibration.
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Yup, that's the whole point of the pulse adapter. All of those variables are moot since you are measuring the actual start of injection rather than the plunger position.
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Except they are measuring it at peak HP somehow.
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Somehow is maybe (?):
(http://www.nantai-china.com/alb/manage/editor/UploadFile/2011622141730725.gif)
That '79 is of course a 1.5L, with 125bar injectors and .83mm static timing.
The 1.6 stickers can vary depending on D or TD and ECO.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GyN59liDOt0/U5JOWq8CO3I/AAAAAAAABjM/UblAqAWj3fI/s800/IMG_9430.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MBLibUQoGQE/U5JOWZMLHbI/AAAAAAAABjQ/Di1Fc01YKdc/s800/IMG_9431.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OfSHF_Dzqhs/U5JOWnE8WdI/AAAAAAAABjU/8vPA_UuNE6o/s800/IMG_9429.JPG)
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Except they are measuring it at peak HP somehow.
I took it as "for this HP time it to____ with the timing light"
Also, in the pics above I do not see a timing spec for the timing light, just the mm gauge style, so they are kind of irrelevant to this thread.
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I took it as "for this HP time it to____ with the timing light"
Also, in the pics above I do not see a timing spec for the timing light, just the mm gauge style, so they are kind of irrelevant to this thread.
If it were as simple as "time it to ___ with the timing light", why would VW change the spec for the next decade or more?
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I took it as "for this HP time it to____ with the timing light"
Also, in the pics above I do not see a timing spec for the timing light, just the mm gauge style, so they are kind of irrelevant to this thread.
If it were as simple as "time it to ___ with the timing light", why would VW change the spec for the next decade or more?
I don't understand you question. I was commenting on the picture. I can separate this into another thread if you want as it doesn't make sense at all to me.
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VW changed the way the timing spec was expressed, but not the spec for start of injection. The differences in the plunger lift spec are directly related to injector break pressure, camplate profile and plunger diameter but all result in the same 10° BTDC for start of injection. I believe that VW has consistently given a lower than optimal timing spec in order to reduce NOx emissions.
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I believe that VW has consistently given a lower than optimal timing spec in order to reduce NOx emissions.
How dare they! Going for clean air over performance and or engine life. Dirty buggers.
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I was also told many years ago by someone at VW that they were also quieter at the "US" spec and because Americans did not like clattery diesels our diesel Rabbits were slower than those of the rest of the world. They claimed that when they set the timing at the "European" timing spec people complained because of the noise. This would have been around 1980, IIRC.
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Yes as far as I know the "Clatter" of the diesel of the day back in the early development and use of them had Americans flat out refusing to even consider them. Now look at the Pick up truck on the street today. Sure used more for pulling and doing work most of the time. But plenty on the road. Diesels now are ubber quiet compared to mine but my mileage beats theirs hands down. Largely due to the additional half a ton of safety gear on their cars.
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The piezo adapter fires at the start of injection. The micro-expansion of the metal line is what charges the crystal pickup and it fires it's pulse when the line starts to relax which is at the actual start of injection which precisely coincides with needle lift. Yes, the piezo pickup DOES detect needle lift very accurately.
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I am revisiting this and trying to find reference that the piezo outputs a pulse when the line relaxes (as opposed to when the line expands). Can you provide a source of that info?
Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity there is a simulation that shows voltage rise as the piezo crystal is compressed, not when it is relaxed.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/SchemaPiezo.gif)
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Regarding the timing for performance versus NO reductions. Does anyone have a reference on the number of degrees difference that would be? I thought the 1.6 L was best at 12 BTDC. Libby says so I think. Just wondering as the use of the pulse adapter makes changing the IP timing a lot easier now. All that stick it in and dial work is a thing of the past. For me, pull a glow plug and time away.
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12° BTDC using my pulse adapter and strobe has consistently yielded the best results for me. I would encourage everyone to arrive at their own conclusions, tho, as no further 'proof' will be offered by me. YMMV and it has been proven to cause cancer in California.
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What was really interesting to me was how the actual timing in degrees was varied from the dial indicator. I had my pump mechanically dialed in at 88 to 95 mm at different times and this equated to about 15 to 20 degrees BTDC. So Now I am back to 15 and see what I get for mileage around town.
It is quieter but I am looking for MPG so we will see.
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You seem to have a different experience from mine. I have checked several, and with spec injectors and a properly functioning pump timed to stock timing with the dial indicator I have not seen a pulse timing over 13°BTDC and more typical is to see 9-12°. At 15° it is obviously too clattery and 20° would be advanced enough to make it hard to start. Are you sure your cold start knob wasn't pulled?
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OK, Twas sunny and very nice in the driveway today so I pulled out the optical and the pulse adapters and the timing light. Also dug out the timing dial gauge and all the needed sockets to do a multitude of timing setups.
I started with my base setting of 85 on the dial gauge just to test out the process. That being set the timing to the desired dial mm number, Spin engine by hand and recheck setting. Then pull the dial off and set it up to run and take two measurements. One with the Pulse adapter located about 3/4 of an inch above the injector nut and the other with the Optical (Lumy) adapter. I worked up the scale to 110 mm and then picked up the 70 and 80 measures on the bottom. Once I had all the readings I wanted I rest the timing to 88 as per label on the strut.
The base setting I had 85 mm was giving me 33 mpg in the stop and go city traffic on my short 3 mile jaunts to work. Temps in the 40s generally during that time. And ran the car for 450 miles between last fillup. I added an extra five gallons to the tank some time in March.
So the results are charted below and I just have to wonder why my pump does not get down to the 12 degree mark that I was expecting at the lower settings. Or at the base setting for that matter. Perhaps my internal IP pressure is too high, and I am running some advance at idle al the time? I have read that one might need to run the idle at 1000 RPM doing this sort of thing but I kept mine in the 840-870 RPM range. On the chart the red line is the Pulse adapter and the left axis is the scale, on the right is the Optical readings per mm setting. I threw in the linear trend line to see how well it lined up and to allow others to perhaps get to the numbers one would expect to be here. I am not sure why there is that stairstep effect going with the optical readings. Maybe I was not aligned with the pointer dead on.
Just the same a lot of time to make all the adjustments and double check all the process.
Open for discussion on what we can learn here.
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/Adapting%20adapter/AdapterChart_zpsaf823cf4.jpg)
OrCoaster, please clarify the units of the vertical and horizontal scales and what they represent.
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I tried for a bit to put text on those vertical axis and will do again. I thought in the thread I discussed the pulse adapter needed BTDC readings so that is the left side. That crazy Lumy thing a ma gig that goes in the glow hole reads the actual fire of the piston stroke so it is ATDC readings.
I will see if I can edit it proper and reload. Kind of like a map without a North arrow or a scale isn't it. I should be coaled for that.
Thanks for asking. Like I need more homework. DAS
Best to bump it forward but I did correct on initial page.
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/DieselTimings_zps2620e09b.jpg)
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I have more home work for ya. Horizontal scale need decimal points. Numbers on blue line need ATDC label.
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MOAR Betta? Or do I have to go back to my desk and do MOAR to it?
Kind of been that way at work this week. Second time ever in my 35 yr career that I have been ordered to do a job because someone else did not. Only in the govt.
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The limiting factor of the max rpm for the pulse adapter can not be the lines! If it were, a Tiny Tach would be useless as it would only measure to 1500 RPM. The most likely limiting factor is the timing light itself, which must have time to produce the high voltage the tube needs, and the less likely, but still possible pulse adapter itself, being the limiting factor. Tiny Tach says their unit will measure up to 19990 RPM, so lines can't be a factor at our RPM range.
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The limiting factor of the max rpm for the pulse adapter can not be the lines! If it were, a Tiny Tach would be useless as it would only measure to 1500 RPM. The most likely limiting factor is the timing light itself, which must have time to produce the high voltage the tube needs.
Snap on says the light is within 1 degree from 30 to 9900 RPM I doubt any of us can push even the cheapest of timing lights in terms of RPM.
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Jimfoo, My Tiny Tach reads from 600 to over 3500 since I have had it. Depending on idle and shift point. I am not sure I follow the 1500 RPM limitation.
There are several factors to any reading I made. Lots of interactions between Adapter type, clamp position, Timing light type and the electronics of either adapter. Remember we are taking a signal off with a sensor driving it into a device that amplifies it to a point that a regular inductive timing light can then be switched on or off.
I did get a Snap on light to use that way I tried to minimize the possibility that the adapters signal and timing light pickup would be a variable.
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Hey folks, cleaned out a bunch of the pointless bickering that was still lingering in this otherwise extremely useful thread and made it a sticky, enjoy!!
Oh and for what it's worth, my M-TDI is currently timed to about 1.43mm which is 12 degrees with my light - appears to be quite happy there... ;)
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Good for you and us. If my equipment wasn't so hard to find, I would be up for sending it around the country for all to use but IF it was lost in transit or in someones tool box I would never feel good about that. Hard to have this stuff and not be able to share without being the one to do the work.
Yeah, we could insure it for a billion dollars but the fact is they don't make them anymore and replacements on Craigslist, or EBay are just not there. The downer to owning a 30+ year old car with no electronics. The Plus side, no ECU to replace for 500 bucks minimum.
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Schematic for my Snap-On pulse adapter. It should work fine with the tinytach piezo sender. Component list is included in my next post. Bear in mind that there is one zenner diode (D1) that does not have any definitive markings. I do not have the means to test it, and will not be removing it to do so. For that diode, trial/error or further research would be required. The components aside from the sender would cost approx $20 at Mouser/Digikey.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/diesel-pulse_zpssxgx2fbh.jpg)
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Good work Andrew!!
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(http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34340.0;attach=1910;image)
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Schematic for my Snap-On pulse adapter. It should work fine with the tinytach piezo sender. Component list is included in my next post. Bear in mind that there is one zenner diode (D1) that does not have any definitive markings. I do not have the means to test it, and will not be removing it to do so. For that diode, trial/error or further research would be required. The components aside from the sender would cost approx $20 at Mouser/Digikey.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/diesel-pulse_zpssxgx2fbh.jpg)
Parts list image is broken
I've been looking for an electronics project for a bit, just got a new iron and (old) scope to play with. I haven't etched a board in a decade or so. that should be fun.
any way to make this drive a tach?
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It was uploaded to this site as an attachment. Apparently that option was removed. PM your e-mail to me and I'll forward a copy to you.
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Is there anyone around the Richmond, VA area with a pulse adapter on here? I was scratching my head last night for a few hours and am still fighting my cummins pump swapped ahu.. This would be very handy to eliminate yet one more minor swap setback.