Engine Specific Info and Questions > mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions
TDI-M pump setup
4BTA4ME:
I'd like to find out if my 1985 non-turbo pump (0 460 484 031) is suitable for building a Tdi-M from my ALH engine. The ALH engine pump number is 0 460 404 977 R700. I'm interested in finding out what parts would be swapped over to the mechanical pump and what parts I would need to find; assuming that I can use the 1985 pump.
Also, how much more H.P. is the 4BT pump making than what I can get out of the 1985 pump?
RabbitGTDguy:
Depends on how complex you want to get...
You can swap the camplate, plunger, hydraulic head assembly, timing internals, etc. from the TDI pump to the IDI pump...find an LDA, etc. etc.
or you can really get fancy and use the larger drive unit from the ALH pump swapped into the IDI pump housing (requires some machining to accomodate larger shaft (20mm vs. 17mm), shave the timing piston down and still swap all of the above as well...
However, DI pumps...the TDI units specifically and many of the DI mechanical pumps when you look at the housings are "reinforced" more in some ways...however, I don't think anyone on here as complained of problems with cracking housings, etc. using the older pump housings. If memory serves me correctly someone recently on here did the aboved mentioned...that is a mTDI pump build using the larger shaft, etc. swapped into the older IDI pump housings and such...
Both styles of pumps require work and calibration to do them correctly...and the name of the game is CLEAN.
Pump H.P. isn't a number that I think can be just "given" out...it depends on your particular engine setup, nozzles particularly, turbo specs, etc. etc. etc. I suppose a HP estimate could be made but it'd have to be run on a test machine more than likely. The ease of the 4bt pump is "less swapping", and it is DI specific...but it still involves work to get it there. Both can be built nicely and supply anywhere from stock power all the way up to 200hp or so...once again, depending on your setup.
Joe
4BTA4ME:
1."shave timing piston down"- Turn down the diameter?
2."Use the larger Drive unit from the ALH"- Does this get you more fuel pressure?
3. "Machining to accomodate larger shaft"- Drive shaft? sounds like I can do this with a reamer in my mill.
4. "Calibration" of pump- Injection timing or injection breakover pressure?
5. "Nozzles"- any suggestions on which nozles might be appropriate and safe for an older IDI pump? Rough estimate of pricing?
Any suggestion for models and prices of an aftermarket divorced fuel pump back at the "gas" tank?
RabbitGTDguy:
--- Quote from: "4BTA4ME" ---1."shave timing piston down"- Turn down the diameter?
2."Use the larger Drive unit from the ALH"- Does this get you more fuel pressure?
3. "Machining to accomodate larger shaft"- Drive shaft? sounds like I can do this with a reamer in my mill.
4. "Calibration" of pump- Injection timing or injection breakover pressure?
5. "Nozzles"- any suggestions on which nozles might be appropriate and safe for an older IDI pump? Rough estimate of pricing?
Any suggestion for models and prices of an aftermarket divorced fuel pump back at the "gas" tank?
--- End quote ---
1. No, diameter is not turned down...the top of the piston is shaved to increase travel and hence increase timing advance... Tin Tin will tell you...mTDI's like advance...
You can also swap the TDI pumps timing piston and internals as well...
2. the larger diameter mainshaft of the pumps is a "safety" measure. there is a debate out on it...many have run mTDI's and big IDI pumps without issue using the 17mm (smaller shaft...your IDI pump), others have not and have had the smaller unit snap. The larger 20mm shaft is a safety measure for increased torque on the mainshaft as well as the injection pressures that are higher in the DI engine. Not required...but a nice safety measure...and my philo is to do it once...do it right...so...
It does not increase injection pressures...
3. Sounds good..
4. Pumps are calibrated on pump test machines by bosch...the other method of testing is just setting it up on your car... injection pump timing is part of it...the indexing of the throttle shaft (you keep this in the same place when removed) is part of it, making sure internal components are torqued to spec and shimmed correct (i.e. plunger), etc.
5. Umm...safe, well...if the pump is built right you can run what you want. You need the pump to produce the fuel you need as per what your looking to get from your motor...then consider nozzles...
Which nozzle size depends on where you are going with your motor, etc. Also...quality is to be considered. There are nozzles out there for about $100-150 if you want them... then there are nozzles out there for 220-385.00. Quality does make a difference and in this case...size does too. If it isn't...you can still run what you want. Stock TDI injectors from the 1z/AHU motors are set at 190bar.... ALH units...220bar.
Check out ebay and www.tdiracing.com for the lower cost nozzles and www.kermatdi.com for the more expensive units and read/research about what each particular brand has (or may not have) to offer. Nozzle design is very important... there are many testimonials here, as well as over on www.tdiclub.com as to experiences with different brands and such.
There are alot of considerations here. I'd suggest maybe digging a bit more into the operation of the pump, etc. and how/where you want to go with things for a better understanding. Naming "what something costs" can get pricey... and you could be dissappointed in the end (in that you may end up with overshooting how much you thought it'd cost..)
In all...expect to pay 150-385.00 for nozzles...depending on the quality, etc...
100.00 if you need to reshim your injectors, or 60-100 to have pop testing and shimming done (large injectors need to be reshimmed)
the pump...expect to pay anywhere from 400.00-1300 to get something setup up. Depends on what you have to start with, where your going, who is doing it and what you want to do... core pumps add up, used pumps, etc. etc. The list goes on and on...
There are a couple really good builders on here offering services...Tin-Tin is recommended, Giles is there... there are DIY'ers too.. and there are DIY'ers that use these guys services too...
Trust me..I've been there as have many others.
Joe
hillfolk'r:
been runnin my small shaft /12mm pump on my tdi for almost 30k now.....
and probably another 30k on the previous idi engine ihad it on,with no problems
chances are,you wont break a shaft
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