Author Topic: Pulling Hard  (Read 2928 times)

July 15, 2020, 03:01:55 pm

BryanP

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Pulling Hard
« on: July 15, 2020, 03:01:55 pm »
Hello again!
After much electrical and tailgate work done to my rabbit (thank you all SO much for your input and assistance!!!), it was finally time to justify an alignment to see if I can get it to quit pulling to the right so hard.
However... after the alignment... it pulls to the right WAY harder. Like now I won't drive it at highway speeds because I have to tug left on the wheel so hard all the time, if I take my hands off the wheel for 1/10th of a second I'll be in the ditch on the side. Under 35mph or so I can handle it, but not any more than that. I do know that they jacked up the camber when they did alignment, as the tires went from brand new to showing wires within a couple hundred miles, both front tires wore to the wires on the inside. So I fixed the camber in my driveway (at least enough to get me to a different shop for another alignment soon), and checked that the toe was correct and it is. I just put new rotors and pads on front and back, and serviced the calipers on the front and rear (yes, rear discs from PO), so I'm confident that the brakes are free and clear. I also gave her new wheel bearings all around, so everything is unbound and rolling smoothly.
So where would y'all start diagnosing? Bent frame? Tweaked rear axle? Control arms, tie rods, bushings, suspension? Any direction would be very helpful and greatly appreciated. Otherwise I'll just start pulling parts from my parts truck one at a time and diagnosing it that way. I don't really want to do another alignment until I've fixed what's causing it, you know?



Reply #1July 15, 2020, 05:40:10 pm

Iamvandemon

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2020, 05:40:10 pm »
The shop that did the alignment didn't give you a printout of pre and post alignment specs?

And why didn't you pull it right back into their lot when you saw that it was pulling even harder?
91 Jetta 1.6l IDI
85 Golf 1.6l IDI

Reply #2July 15, 2020, 11:27:31 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2020, 11:27:31 pm »
I would have been back to the shop in minutes if that happened to me. 

Don't start tearing into your frame and suspension until you visit the shop and have them correct the problem.  They should be able to TELL YOU what is causing the problem. 

That is if they are any kind of alignment shop or just a bunch of hacks with at device they hang on the wheels to make it look like they know what the heck they are doing.

Bad Actors they are. 

Reply #3July 16, 2020, 01:59:06 am

fatmobile

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2020, 01:59:06 am »
Turn your steering wheel all the way to the right,
 then the left.
 Find center and put the steering wheel straight when centered.
 All they care about is the steering wheel looks right.

Might not keep it from pulling but it must be done before going to get your tires alligned.

Have you tried measuring your tires at the front and back to see how far off they are?
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #4July 16, 2020, 07:31:26 am

Iamvandemon

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2020, 07:31:26 am »
-a little copy paste-

Car Pulls To The Right: The Possible Reasons And Solutions

Uneven Tire Pressure
The first thing you should check when your car pulls to the right is the tire pressure. For example, the height of the vehicle will not be proportionate when there are underinflated tires on one side. Low tire pressure increases rolling resistance, leading to the misalignment issue.
Over inflation is equally bad, making the car to pull to one side. It happens because the overinflated tire makes the car to push away from it.

Misaligned Wheel
A car or truck pulls to the right when the wheel is out of alignment. Uneven wear of the tire tread is another indication of this problem. Delay in addressing the issue will lead to more serious problems.

Brake System Complications
Complications in the brake system including a stuck caliper, dry slide pins, and collapsed brake hose can create the pulling issue.
A stuck caliper is the most common of all the issues. Calipers exert pressure to the brake pads by drawing power from the hydraulic brake system. They are crucial in halting the vehicle after pressing the brake pedal. The car will pull to one side if one of them does not function properly.

Torque Steer
The condition arises when the engine torque affects the steering. A front-wheel drive (FWD) car pulls to the right when accelerating in the event of torque steer. Several components can be the source of the trouble – a loose steering element, a failing lower control arm bushing, a damaged motor mount, a pliant tie rod, or excessive motion in a ball joint.

Bad Steering Linkage
A loose, deteriorated, or weak tie rod end is another reason why a car pulls to the right when taking a turn. The wild shaking of the wheel will be a regular occurrence when the condition gets worse. The newer vehicles use a rack-and-pinion system instead of a steering box.

Deteriorated Wheel Bearing
The bearings are crucial to the smooth rotation of the wheel. When one of them wears out, the car will show multiple warning signs and pulling to one side is one of them.

Worn Out Suspension Parts
The suspension is likely to give up at some point. There are several parts including ball joints, control arms, struts, shocks, and bushings that can wear out over time. The deteriorated components will make the vehicle move one side at the time of braking.
91 Jetta 1.6l IDI
85 Golf 1.6l IDI

Reply #5July 16, 2020, 08:35:06 am

Iamvandemon

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2020, 08:35:06 am »
Is it power or manual steering?

Does it pull hard at all positions of the steering wheel?

Will it continue to steer right until to full right lock?

If the alignment guys had correctly aligned the vehicle (you said camber was way off so who knows) then my first guess would be a fault in the rotary control valve in the (assuming its power) power steering rack. Maybe disable the power steering and see if it still fights to the right...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 08:44:27 am by Iamvandemon »
91 Jetta 1.6l IDI
85 Golf 1.6l IDI

Reply #6July 16, 2020, 11:25:29 am

BryanP

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2020, 11:25:29 am »
Whoa thanks for all the replies!

Iamvandemon:
Manual steering, pulls in all positions, doesn't turn the steering wheel (at least not that I've noticed).
Tires are all equal at 35psi, alignment is definitely jacked (more later), did a full brake service, torque steer worn out suspension and steering linkage seems most suspect out of that list.
The shop did not provide me with an alignment printout, even after I asked. I also paid them to check the bearings and suspension and brakes, and they failed to notice that my rear pass bearing was toast and my rear brakes were completely seized. Lol I intentionally brought it in that condition because I was suspect that they were cheating and wanted a better case for BBB.

fatmobile:
They told me to recenter the wheel myself after the alignment, and I did. In which way are you suggesting I measure? like to check for square?

ORCoaster:
So, I did the alignment, then brought it home and didn't drive it for a month, did some work on the interior and did all the brakes. By the time I noticed the problem (drove to Bend from Eugene, 3 hours was enough to show tire wires...) I was "out of warranty" and there was "nothing they were willing to do about it." After much back-and-forth, in their shop, I decided I'd be best off going somewhere else to do it again and reporting them to BBB, it's the second time they've screwed up bad and done nothing about it. Good 'ol Les Schwab, thought  they were supposed to be respectable. I've got an appt at a different shop, dude that runs it had 3 mk1 rabbits in his driveway (that are his).

So I guess next step is take it to alignment guy. Said he'd do a full inspect of the steering system, suspension, and do the alignment. Hopefully he'll be able to determine if the frame is straight, too. I'll turn this pickup into the parts truck and get the current parts truck spic-n-span. I'll let you know what I learn, thanks for all the replies!

Reply #7July 16, 2020, 12:18:53 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2020, 12:18:53 pm »
I do alignments myself.  It takes longer than taking it to a shop, but using fairly basic measuring tools, the end result is as precise as any alignment machine and the fact that I care about my vehicle and most techs don't makes a big difference.  The thought of paying someone money to mess up my alignment is painful, but the idea that an alignment tech might not take seriously the safety issues involved is downright alarming.  I'll do it myself, thanks. 

Reply #8July 16, 2020, 12:20:01 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2020, 12:20:01 pm »
Torque steer is obvious when the vehicle pulls more or the direction of pull changes when power is applied vs. cruise. 

Reply #9July 16, 2020, 05:05:39 pm

Iamvandemon

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2020, 05:05:39 pm »
hmm, you ruined my power steering theory...

Make sure he drives it and experiences the pulling. Step one of being a good mechanic is to verify the complaint. and the last step is to verify the repair (ie. the resolution of the complaint).
91 Jetta 1.6l IDI
85 Golf 1.6l IDI

Reply #10July 17, 2020, 12:06:34 am

fatmobile

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2020, 12:06:34 am »
 So your steering wheel wasn't sitting straight when they were done with it?
 I once got a tire alignment so off center that when I turned all the way to the left,
 the wheel hit the control arm.

 I just mean measure between the wheels.
 Front of tires compared to rear of tires.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #11July 17, 2020, 12:58:15 pm

BryanP

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2020, 12:58:15 pm »
Thanks again for the replies, y'all!

fatmobile:
Correct, the last time I did alignment on my other rabbit, when I got it back the steering wheel wasn't centered radially any more, they told me to pull the steering wheel and turn it, which I did. Haven't experienced any problems with that rabbit yet, that shop did a great job (so far as I can tell, but it was just a different tech at the same place...). Perhaps with this pickup the rack and pinion is no longer centered, and is too far to one side to cause problems? Like maybe over time the tie-rods have been adjusted the same way too many times, and now the whole thing is out of whack. I'll check that this evening, could be problematic. I'll also measure, I thought that might be what you were referring to.

Iamvandemon:
Yeah, no power steering, just beefy arms.
He did drive it and said "woah, pulls right pretty good." Then when I got it back, he said "the alignment's good, brakes are all good, and bearings are all fine, but it still pulls right pretty good." uuugh... brakes were seized, bearings were shot, and the camber was way off. He said "radial slip" was the cause of the pulling and blamed the tires/wheels. I've put on three different sets of wheels/tires (cause I happen to have that many sets) and have ruled out wheels/tires being the problem.

libbydiesel:
Might not be torque steer then, it pulls equally under any load. It's just more noticeable when I'm going faster.
I'm 100% going to get me the proper tools. Bentley manual has the procedure, I've just been too nervous about destroying tires if I screw it up. Figured a shop and $100 would ease my mind, but seems like the wrong shop just makes it that much worse... doing it myself from here on out.

Steps for this evening:
Still gonna take it to the shop. New guy I found really knows his stuff, even told me that it felt like I removed the spacer in the dynamic timing housing... which I totally did. And he only took it for a 5-min joyride. He also complimented my bean-can and hose air intake upgrade. Plus the fact that he has 3 of his own rabbits in the driveway gives me some confidence. I'll pay him for a full inspection and to reset the alignment, like $150 or so, and he'll give me a list of what HE would do if it were his vehicle. I'll do myself what I can, and pay him to do the rest.

Reply #12July 18, 2020, 12:29:28 am

BryanP

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2020, 12:29:28 am »
huh. would you look at that... after some research inspired by libbydiesel... turns out it only takes an hour or two to align the thing in my driveway. And guess what? Straight as an arrow now. Took my hands off the wheel (carefully) at 65mph and stayed in my lane for a half mile (figured I should probably grab the wheel again). And all it took was a pencil, a level, and a long scrap of 2x4 I found lying around. toe on the passenger wheel was off by 3/8" or so, and the camber bolt's nut was completely stripped. 10/10 would recommend against Les Schwab.

Reply #13July 18, 2020, 10:27:21 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Pulling Hard
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2020, 10:27:21 am »
Nice!

 

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