ALH mTDI Rover 300TDI / GT2052 build - lack of power?

[Chuck1978]

I'm in the process of buying/shipping an '03 Passat ALH engine that the previous owner bought, swapped to a mechanical pump and different turbo, ran very briefly in a jet boat, and then gave up on figuring out why it didn't have enough power, and swapped for a bigger gasser.

195,000 miles, and a supposedly a Land Rover 300TDI used pump that was rebuilt, as well as, in his words "I have the stock turbo manifold and a cast iron manifold that has a T3 mount and a new GT2052 turbo." He also has some other parts that came with it that he did not use in the boat installation.  Coolant piping was modified for the boat, so I'll need to source a new one of those, vacuum pump removed, and other unneeded accessories removed.




The guy knows less about wrenching on and tuning diesels than I do, so who knows where this went wrong, but he put the engine in a jet boat, and said that it seemed really down on power, and acted as if (from his gauge of experience) that with the propeller setup he had on it, that it only must have had about 80hp, and that was at 2100rpm which was the maximum he could get it to rev at full throttle.

What possible suspects should be looked at first here?
I'm not sure what rpm's that turbo spools up and reaches good boost levels at, but perhaps it is too big of a turbo for the application he was using it for, and the thing was never able to spool up? I had read a lot of good things about the GT2052, but still not enough specific for my desires of finding out if it will spool up fairly quickly with minimal lag, and what kind of boost it is good for, and longevity.
I also thought perhaps he has the timing set way off, but he said he followed procedures outlined on a VW diesel website pretty exactly on how to time it.
Injectors are the originals in unknown condition.
Could also be that maybe the fuel screw was far too lean? Or some problem internal to the pump that was hurting fueling?

For $1200 + freight, I feel like I can't really go too wrong here with a pricey newer turbo and a Land Rover 300TDI(?) mechanical Bosch VE injection pump, as it was running at least, and is said to have 195,000 miles.  Not bad at all for an ALH, they seem to last forever, so Libby and many others have said.  As in "much better metallurgy, to the point that a 200,000 mile teardown shows practically no detectable cylinder bore wear."  At any rate, I'd like to know what I'm getting into here, and where the problems could lie.

Something wrong inside the pump, post-rebuild (done at a shop in Oregon supposedly)?
Just simply not enough fuel?
Turbo too big to make power down low, and it never was able to spool up in his test run?
Injection timing way off?
Cam timing off?
Injector issues?
Governor issues on pump? I had read that the 300TDI Rover pump needs the governor modded or else it will not rev out, but I would think it would rev higher than 2100rpm under heavy load at least!  I had read that the 200TDI pump revs higher and does not have a restrictive governor. 


The numbers on the Land Rover injection pump are:
ERR 6700,  0 460 414 136
He said it bolts right on and the stock pulley/sprocket fit it perfectly.
Can anyone decode anything of any noteworthiness from those numbers?

[Chuck1978]

Test run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68V44fXAJdU



I'll be putting this into a Suzuki Samurai with a Toyota R151F transmission (it will have a deep 1st gear though, at 4.31:1), so developing really good torque early in the rpm range will really be something that I'd like to see in a 4x4 and utilitarian vehicle, but I don't want it to fall on it's face really early due to a small turbo like the k03 just running out of steam - I want it to still do well on the highway and have lots of pep and zip around down and on the highway.
Previously, I decided that an AAZ etc K14 sounded like the best thing for me, as 15psi may be plenty enough, but I'd like to be able to run 17 or 18 psi and keep some really good long term reliability.
How will a GT2052 do in this regard?

The Suzuki Samurai will hopefully eventually be getting an aftermarket Aqualu marine grade corrosion resistant 5.32" plate aluminum reproduction body in the Canadian/Non-USA market LWB (long wheelbase) version, so it will be slightly heavier and be able to haul/tow a lot more than a stock short wheelbase US version Samurai, so extra grunt beyond just 4x4 trail low speed use will be important. 

Thanks!

Chuck

[libbydiesel]

Interesting.  I assume it is the engine from this boat project.  http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,36680.30.html  It's a little sad to hear that he simply abandoned it rather than sorting out the issue(s). 

I don't know whether the pump is a 200 or 300TDI pump, but it is one of the two.  Set up stock they will rev up over 4,000 rpms.  Definitely weird that it was limited to ~2100.  Did it rev above that when in 'neutral' or was there not any neutral on the boat install?  The pump could certainly have been set up incorrectly on the rebuild.  Governor could be wrong.  The camplate could be installed 180° out of time.  Another thing that comes to mind is to make sure that the hub is installed correctly on the pump shaft and isn't 180° out.  The hub needs to be installed so that the slot in the hub aligns with the hole in the pump when the keyway in the pump shaft is point to the #1 cylinder delivery valve.  The stock land rover hub is installed 180° out of time.  In that situation it will still run but will lack power.  I don't know that it would be limited to 2100 rpms, though.  A good baseline timing spec is then 1.40mm for that pump.

   

[Chuck1978]

Why yes, that is the exact engine that I am buying! It is palletized right now and will be shipping on Wednesday.

I just read that entire thread to make sure I knew what I was getting into.
It is odd that he was getting smoke after turning up the fuel screw, and only getting 800 degree exhaust temperatures, & no boost registering on the gauge. At least after fixing some exhaust leaks that he found, the turbo was at the time finally spinning enough to be blowing a tiny bit of air as he tested it unhooked. Just not building noticable boost.

The injection pump was supposedly gone through by a shop in Oregon.

I suppose it is highly possible that the camplate is installed 180 out, or the pulley is 180 out on the hub - if you say either condition would still allow it to run, but that it would be limited on power and not likely to rev as it should.

Smoke at the same time as only 740-800 degree exhaust temps and still no boost is odd. I'm no diesel tuning expert by any means at present, but learning and reading up a lot in preparation for this build... I have 340,000 miles on my stock '83 Quantum wagon mechanical lifter 1.6TD-IDI (installed in my '82 Rabbit pickup), and have had to do very little repair work to that thing ever.  I am afraid to tune it for much more power, as a u guy I was talking to about buying a 90's Jetta 12mm/hydraulic head 1.6TD-IDI had told me that if I'm not breaking stock transmissions, then I'm nowhere close to the power potential of minor mods to the old 1.6TD's...

[libbydiesel]

From the linked video, the engine sounded decent.  I think you probably won't have much trouble getting it to run like gangbusters.  Just be systematic. 

I have not run the GT2052 so I do not know how well it spools.  I doubt that the issue was limited only to turbo choice.  IIRC they mentioned something about water-cooling the exhaust manifold before the turbo which ruin the turbo's ability to spool.  Maybe exhaust leaks, maybe an exhaust or intake that was too restrictive, etc...  Maybe a combination of factors that made it so the turbo never spooled and the engine was never able to develop enough power to get over the boost threshold. 

Regardless, I'm amazed that they put that amount of effort into it and then abandoned the project at that point.  It's like running a marathon and just deciding to stop two steps from the finish line.  Truly strange. 

[Chuck1978]

From the linked video, the engine sounded decent.  I think you probably won't have much trouble getting it to run like gangbusters.  Just be systematic. 

Excellent encouraging advice, thanks libby!

I have not run the GT2052 so I do not know how well it spools.  I doubt that the issue was limited only to turbo choice.  IIRC they mentioned something about water-cooling the exhaust manifold before the turbo which ruin the turbo's ability to spool.

Maybe exhaust leaks, maybe an exhaust or intake that was too restrictive, etc...  Maybe a combination of factors that made it so the turbo never spooled and the engine was never able to develop enough power to get over the boost threshold. 

He ditched the water cooled exhaust manifold early on in the project after being told exactly that - that it would reduce temperatures to the point where he would not be able to build any boost. He then fixed some exhaust leaks that he found, and he was then able to unhook the boosted side of the turbo while running and feel air actually being pushed out of the turbo finally, whereas it was not pushing any air before.  But still when hooked up, it still was not building any noticeable boost, even when he cranked the fuel screw in until it was blowing black smoke. 

Could there be any issue with the LDA? Or is that not even into the equation yet if it is not building any measurable boost?

Regardless, I'm amazed that they put that amount of effort into it and then abandoned the project at that point.  It's like running a marathon and just deciding to stop two steps from the finish line.  Truly strange.

I think a big part of the reason is that he was afraid that he would not be able to get durable sustained power out of it to the levels he was wanting to reach, as well as he was not familiar with diesels and diesel tuning and was a little discouraged and put off by it, and lastly, he was afraid that he would never get it to put out as clean of exhaust as a gasoline engine, as he had said that the back of the boat after some test runs was covered in soot, and that is after the exhaust was discharged into the Colorado River water, and then particles finding their way onto the boat hull.

I was just on that river east of where he is talking about, on the whitewater sections for a 4 day trip (friend's bachelor party!), and as he said, everyone else on the river is primarily in rafts and kayaks, with a few rafts with small outboard motors for the "flatwater" stretches.  Where is is talking about, it is more wide open, so there may be a few more motorized boats, but the river is used by outdoor enthusiasts, and he was very worried about having a sooty diesel engine and the reactions he would get from the outdoorsey people on the river.

I know that it can be tuned to have little or no soot/smoke, especially when training yourself to ease into the throttle to allow it to build boost, but he did not have patience or confidence in it, and I believe is reverting back to gasoline engines that he knows much better. 

[libbydiesel]

As you summed up, IMO all of the described issues could have been resolved and likely fairly easily.  It seems to me that a boat application would be a very good environment for building reliable power from an ALH.  Plenty of readily available cool water for regulating the engine temperatures and cooling the intake charge.  I think his desired 150-200hp would have been relatively easy to achieve and without any soot.  A different turbo might have been necessary but I wouldn't have come to that conclusion yet.   

If it was not producing boost LDA was not of issue. 

Considering the inability to rev despite blowing black smoke and building no boost, I would heavily suspect an overly restrictive or very leaky intake tract.  Next I would suspect simply not reaching the boost threshold for the turbo, but I find that a lot less likely due to the descriptions of other people who have used that turbo.

Suspicions of an issue with the pump would be even lower on the list. 

[Chuck1978]

Here it is, ready to ship out on Wednesday when he drives from Moab, UT to the nearest town with freight shipping, Grand Junction, CO:



I'll obviously be needing to get a few parts such as the timing cover, and a water manifold piping part that was chopped up for the boat install. Comes with a different/spare exhaust and intake manifold, stock pump, stock turbo, plus the Rover pump and GT2052 turbo he was running.  And VW alternator. No AC or power steering unless my wife coerces me to move from the edge of Appalachia down to the desert southwest, then I may have to get AC...

[Chuck1978]

Well I'm happy to report that I got this engine finally, but the day it arrived for terminal pickup, I shattered my kneecap and had to have surgery, and now I am laid up for 6 weeks recovering! It's going to be a little while before I get to sorting this thing out now, but I've got it here finally, great bones to work with for my project.

I've also been reading up on using PD engine bottom end parts with an ALH top-end and probably an ALH block unless I go 2.0L (don't see the benefit in sacrificing cylinder wall thickness for 0.1L displacement, & the BHW/BRM/BEW PD blocks would need some modifications to accept the ALH timing pulley location and thinner front main seal carrier (dowells are correct just not bolt holes, carrier is thinner for ALH timing pulleys).
I'm not really looking to make 200+ hp, 180hp max, but looking to make a bulletproof bottom end that would not mind a fair amount of boost while pulling a motorcycle trailer up mountain passes in a Suzuki Samurai. My goal is to build the most reliable tough little 4x4 that I can and still have decent power and excellent fuel economy, and a vehicle that will last as long as I do on this Earth, if not longer. An intercooler and stronger rods would be the target, & the PD engines' cranks/rods have bigger big-end rod bearings, and a better rod design, but ALH pistons do not work with those rods' wrist pin design.

I'm planning to get the aftermarket Aqualu LWB aluminum body tub (14"? longer wheelbase, 55" cargo bed vs 32"), and stretch the frame, so towing and hauling capacity will be greatly increased, and a bulletproof engine putting down 140-180hp & 235-285ft-lbs would be EXCELLENT...
I figured using a Land Rover 300TDI pump, with the right boost levels to accommodate the Rover pump's fueling for a 2.5L Rover engine on the Land Rover pump, I would be making a minimum of 115hp/195ft-lbs @ base Rover tune levels since the ALH from what I am reading is an incredibly efficient engine. More power on tap with more boost and a turn of the fueling screw... The Garret GT2052 turbo is stated to be rated at 140hp up to 220hp, probably slightly bigger than what I really need, but it is a pretty efficient design, so I am going to likely just go with it. Being rated at 140hp "up to 220hp," I was wondering if I needed drastically more fueling just to be able to get this thing spooling up??

I think the previous owner had the timing off although he said he "followed the steps properly," but finding true TDC now without the VW bell/trans attached, & not even owning a VW flywheel now... This is a big "what if" factor in terms of troubleshooting know problems while looking out from my bedroom window wishing I was in the garage...
This is what I am most questioning in terms of why it was not running well enough to build any boost.


Hopefully I will be able to start making it out into the garage again in another 10-15 days or so, but on very light duty & on crutches with knee immobilized... Very eager for my bones to mend so I can go full bore on rehabilitating my leg & full-bore on living my life!!!!!


Any further thoughts on this "140-220hp turbo" on this engine, and thoughts on the timing and TDC-finding/marking process without a VW flywheel and trans?
I do have a Eurovan Camper trans here come to think of it, it was mated to an AAB 5cyl until a CV joint let go and the CV shaft blew a hole through the trans... Would have to find a loaner flywheel, or use as excuse to buy a 2nd ALH as a spare, or a BHW/BRM/BEW for an ALH hybrid build...

[Chuck1978]

Whattttt?
Wrong forum I believe, that Mustang certainly is not a diesel!
How on earth did that get accidentally posted here?
Spammer?!?

[Trunganh1131]

What's up??
I don't think Mustang is a diesel engine

[Chuck1978]

Ahhh...looks like the post got deleted. Must've been a member here who has a Mustang also, & had multiple web forum pages open, & accidentally posted his Mustang info in the wrong forum!

[Chuck1978]

Well, I am finally getting back to this project after a lengthy recovery time (still rehabbing and only about 65%) after knee surgery from a shattered kneecap...  I bought the engine days before the accident.  Was immobilized or in a poor mobility state for over 3 months after... Been enjoying moderate functionality August-October, motorcycle riding and camping...
Weather is cooling off, so it's wrenching time! Machine shop equipment setup and learning, and some motorcycle restorations/performance builds are also slated, but I HAVE TO GET THIS mTDI and Samurai running!  The Samurai will get a a junkyard engine block swap (cracked block in it now) just to get the 1.6L 8V Suzuki gasser running so I can then mothball it knowing it was a good complete running engine, and so I can drive it while I work on light refurbishing and overdrive gear swapping in an R151F transmission and transfer case out of a 2009 HZJ79 Land Cruiser, a parted out Canadian mining operations work truck. Was only ran in 4WD low range, shifter removed, only maybe 25,000 miles total... but pretty crusty.
Also want to clean up the mTDI, replace rear main seal while it's out, and get things sorted to get it ready to install...




I am thinking that with the newer ultra-low sulfur diesel these days, and 196,000 miles on this 2003 ALH engine out of a wrecked Passat, before I even try and get it running, I will pull and inspect the injectors. I may just go for some DLC-1019 NextGen Bosio injector nozzles (216um orifice diameter) with a stage 1 or maybe stage 2 flow setting. One website that mentions setting them up for stage 2 means more power with less smoke? Does this mean a wider injection window? Via different spring shimming pressures? ? ?   Or is something else modified within the injector body?

"NOTE: Increasing Flow volume above "Standard Settings" allows for lower smoke output with a wider range of performance from the selected nozzle. This allows us to fine tune the injector/nozzle combination to meet specific performance targets. Increasing the flow volume will cause incremental increases in EGT since fuel delivery will occur over a slightly longer period of time.
Stage I: 120-160hp (Standard Flow Setting for most cars)
Stage II: 140-170hp"

Since the turbo I have (brand new wastegated GT2052) is rated for 140hp-220hp, I felt it necessary to match injectors to this power range. 
If I had no turbo, I would probably be looking for an older VW IDI's K14 and call it good at 15psi maximum boost, but honestly I would love to find a combination that would yield very little lag, and good lower rpm boost, good throttle response.  Then I could run some DLC520 nozzles at .502um orifice diameter, and tune it and call it good at maybe 110hp, but definitely considering that I plan to stretch this Samurai with an aftermarket aluminum Canadian Long Wheelbase version body tub, more hauling power will definitely be a good thing. 
I recognize that I need to pay careful attention (and research) to timing and cylinder pressures when modifying an mTDI, in regards to low end torque and performance.  I don't want to destroy any rods pumping out more power and pulling loads...  This is no 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton pickup, but I am planning to make it a daily driver and ultimate small utility 4x4.



I'll have a lot to get sorted out this winter, and will surely have a lot of questions along the way... Any comments on turbo, injectors, tuning, etc is much appreciated.  And a link to any good mTDI timing procedures would be very very appreciated (EDIT - I see the sticky at the top of this forum).  I have no VW bellhousing to reference the TDC/timing mark from, so that makes it more complicated yet again.  I do have a blown up transmission out of an AAB 5cyl diesel Eurovan (1995? CV joint blew and put hole in side of trans case!!!), but I'm not sure if the timing inspection hole will be in the same place??