Author Topic: My 1.6D is running aweful  (Read 18364 times)

Reply #15December 13, 2013, 12:43:27 pm

bbob203

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 12:43:27 pm »
So you say you took your pump apart.. Gurus is it possible that the pump head has some float in it causing it to be clocked 1* either way?
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Reply #16December 13, 2013, 12:45:20 pm

Derekxj

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 12:45:20 pm »
So you say you took your pump apart.. Gurus is it possible that the pump head has some float in it causing it to be clocked 1* either way?

I didnt take it apart no,

i did the two cold start seals, and i VERY carefuly followed directions to replace that head seal where you back out two bolts at a time, only enough to expose the O ring. Thats all i did though. those 3 and then a few copper washers on line inlets and such.

Reply #17December 13, 2013, 12:51:15 pm

bbob203

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 12:51:15 pm »
OK so you didn't fully dismantle it but had the head off thats the important part.
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Reply #18December 13, 2013, 01:00:32 pm

Derekxj

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 01:00:32 pm »
OK so you didn't fully dismantle it but had the head off thats the important part.

not off either, the head was slipped up, off the pump maybe an inch. everywhere that i've read, this is the only safe way to change that oring. It took me about an hour, thats how cautious i was to be sure nothing moved.

Reply #19December 13, 2013, 02:37:07 pm

8v-of-fury!

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 02:37:07 pm »
Hard to start and white smoke, usually means over advanced. I too think you may be at 1.04mm.

However, in your explanation of the process.. upon reaching TDC, you only moved from the 0 to the black 10. 1/10th of the gauge sweep correct?

If you followed this;

Yup, Easy peasy...

TDC the crank
Preset the gauge with >2.5mm reading
Turn back the crank until the gauge just stops moving
Zero the gauge
Return the crank to TDC
Insert Locking pin
Set IP to spec by turning the IP body

Then you did it correctly, and the pump does in fact need pushed towards the head to reach the proper timing of 0.97mm. If this does not satisfy you, you could always skip the pump pulley one tooth CW in the belt so that the same setting will be much further away from the head. The locking pin will not line up anymore, but you won't be so close to the head. Pick your poison lol.

Reply #20December 13, 2013, 02:47:06 pm

Derekxj

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2013, 02:47:06 pm »
Hard to start and white smoke, usually means over advanced. I too think you may be at 1.04mm.

However, in your explanation of the process.. upon reaching TDC, you only moved from the 0 to the black 10. 1/10th of the gauge sweep correct?

If you followed this;

Yup, Easy peasy...

TDC the crank
Preset the gauge with >2.5mm reading
Turn back the crank until the gauge just stops moving
Zero the gauge
Return the crank to TDC
Insert Locking pin
Set IP to spec by turning the IP body

Then you did it correctly, and the pump does in fact need pushed towards the head to reach the proper timing of 0.97mm. If this does not satisfy you, you could always skip the pump pulley one tooth CW in the belt so that the same setting will be much further away from the head. The locking pin will not line up anymore, but you won't be so close to the head. Pick your poison lol.

Well yes, upon reaching TDC i think i may have made ONE mistake. does the cam lock pin HAVE to be in, while i rotate the pump?
anyhow. I rotated it, to the point where the gauge red where i put the red mark in the photo. however, if it were 1.04, wouldnt the small little gauge indicating how many times it goes around, be between 1 and 2, not 0 and 1?

Reply #21December 13, 2013, 03:24:23 pm

8v-of-fury!

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2013, 03:24:23 pm »
Assuming you started at one yes. So basically you are confirming you have it at 0.04mm then. I don't even know how it is running.. lol

The pin is not necessary, so long as everything is staying at TDC.

Reply #22December 13, 2013, 05:04:31 pm

ffgb

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2013, 05:04:31 pm »
You say that you replaced the headgasket. Did you double check the timing mark on the flywheel to make sure that it coincides with piston #1 being at top dead center??? I know that when I replaced my 190mm flywheel to a 210mm lightweight flywheel, that at piston #1 at TDC, the timing mark on the flywheel was off to the left. I had to make another mark on the flywheel at true TDC. If this is the case with you, you would essentially be a couple of teeth off on the timing belt, meaning your car wouldnt run right.

Reply #23December 13, 2013, 08:10:40 pm

Turftech

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2013, 08:10:40 pm »
I would go back and confirm that the crank, cam and pump are all set up right. I messed it up somehow last time and it ran much as you describe: Would not idle, needed lots of throttle and knocked like a nun's knees. I went back and did the initial set up over from scratch, confirming that piston 1 was at TDC on the power stroke and the cam stop could be inserted while the timing mark on the flywheel was at true TDC as ffgb describes. Then move on to timing it.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 08:20:20 pm by Turftech »
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Reply #24December 13, 2013, 08:14:31 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 08:14:31 pm »
Derek, the cam lock and pump lock are ONLY used for installing the timing belt.  They are NOT used during the fine injection pump timing procedure.

It seems you may not fully understand the dial indicator's function and reading.  There are two hands that move on that dial indicator, the big hand and the small hand like a clock and what they represent is similar.  The very small hand near the center of the dial indicator reads millimeters.  The large hand is divided into hundredths of millimeters (1/100mm).  The entire face of the dial indicator can be rotated and rotating that face so that the large hand points to zero is called zeroing the gauge.  The red markings can be ignored (not to confuse, but they are just there to measure 'in reverse').

Step one, make sure the cold start lever is not pulled out.  

With the indicator out of the injection pump, push the little feeler in and watch the two hands.  Notice that for each entire revolution of the big hand, the small hand moves up one increment.  With it at rest, loosen the little screw on the outer rim of the gauge face and rotate the gauge face so that the hand is pointing at 0.  Hopefully at rest the little hand is also pointing at 0 (some of them point a little before zero, which is also fine).  Next you want to insert the indicator into the adapter and into the injection pump so that it has a 2.5mm pre-load.  What that means is that you insert it so that the hands start moving and you keep pushing it in until the *little hand* reads 2.5mm - halfway between the 2 and the 3 on the little face (the actual preload amount is not critical - any measurement between 2.5mm and 6mm is fine, but it is good to understand the process).  For a 2.5mm preload, that also means that the big hand will rotate 2 complete revolutions and then another half of a revolution.

OK, preload set at 2.5 mm...  now rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise.  As you rotate the engine CCW, the big hand will rotate with the numbers going *down*.  Watch the gauge for the point where the needle stops moving and when it does stop, you should stop rotating CCW.  Take a quick look at the small hand.  Make sure it has not rotated all the way back to 0.  If it has, then there is some chance that the dial indicator reached the limit of it's range of motion before the part in the pump stopped moving.  If  it did go all the way to 0, then you want to add a little more pre-load by pushing the indicator into the adapter a little further and then rotate the engine CCW a little more to make sure the pump part you are measuring has stopped moving.  

Ok, you're now sure that you are at the 'bottom of the pump plunger stroke'.  Next, zero the gauge face.  Loosen the little screw on the side of the indicator and rotate the gauge face so that the large hand is pointing to zero.  So, at this point, you are 30 degrees or so before TDC, the big hand is at 0 and the little hand is between 0 and 1 (or between 1 and 2, but regardless, take note of it's current reading).

You are now ready to rotate the crank to TDC.  The big hand should start rotating up.  Stop the crank when you get to TDC.  Look at the the big hand and the little hand.  What are they reading?  For correct timing on a stock non-turbo engine, the big hand should be at 90-95 and the little hand should have moved up one increment (if it was between 0 and 1, it should now it should be between 1 and 2).  If the reading on the big hand is just a little below 90 and the little hand has moved almost one increment, then the pump needs to be advanced (rotated so the top of the pump moves toward the injectors) just a little bit.  If the reading on the big hand is very small and the little hand has barely moved, then you need to advance it a lot.  If the reading on the big hand is very small but the reading on the little hand has moved up a full increment, then you need to retard the pump a little by rotating the top of the pump away from the injectors.  

Make sense?

« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 08:19:30 pm by libbydiesel »

Reply #25December 13, 2013, 08:16:49 pm

Turftech

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2013, 08:16:49 pm »
Sorry Libby. Didn't mean to step on your toes.
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Reply #26December 13, 2013, 08:32:55 pm

745 turbogreasel

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2013, 08:32:55 pm »
If you have the old style pump sprocket, it has 2 holes  that fit the  lock tool, so you can lock it and be backward.  the keyway should be  pointing up not down.

To add further confusion, my dial indicator only installs into the tool  counting 'backwards', but doesn't feature the red numbers so I have to do math to figure out where I want to land.  the key is  as you rotate the engine  forward toward TDC, whichever set of numbers is going  up are the ones to read.

Reply #27December 13, 2013, 11:58:02 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2013, 11:58:02 pm »
Sorry Libby. Didn't mean to step on your toes.

Huh?  You didn't step on my toes. 

Reply #28December 14, 2013, 03:29:19 am

Mark(The Miser)UK

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2013, 03:29:19 am »
Stephen, ???Edit :Derick here is a pic of the sound of your engine.



As I said on the other forum forget your pump R& R; (at least until you have repaired #3 cylinder).

If you get the white smoke quite quickly when trying to start, then you are getting fuel.

Look at the picture and you can see the metal clash on #3.
Now, if you can bear to look at #1, #4 & #2 cylinder explosions. Those are of a near perfect form.

Hence if you had #3 performing the same then you would have a near perfect engine.

A pump that can give one poor output is a rare beast indeed :o, if he exists at all ;D.

If you mess about with other stuff you will [may] end up like most other sufferers here and create unfathomable issues. My house is full of 'distracted from' 'fixes'  :'( But I'll be a good boy next year...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 07:23:23 am by Mark(The Miser)UK »
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Reply #29December 14, 2013, 05:40:44 am

Gizmoman

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Re: My 1.6D is running aweful
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2013, 05:40:44 am »
Derek, the cam lock and pump lock are ONLY used for installing the timing belt.  They are NOT used during the fine injection pump timing procedure.

It seems you may not fully understand the dial indicator's function and reading.  There are two hands that move on that dial indicator, the big hand and the small hand like a clock and what they represent is similar.  The very small hand near the center of the dial indicator reads millimeters.  The large hand is divided into hundredths of millimeters (1/100mm).  The entire face of the dial indicator can be rotated and rotating that face so that the large hand points to zero is called zeroing the gauge.  The red markings can be ignored (not to confuse, but they are just there to measure 'in reverse').

Step one, make sure the cold start lever is not pulled out.  

With the indicator out of the injection pump, push the little feeler in and watch the two hands.  Notice that for each entire revolution of the big hand, the small hand moves up one increment.  With it at rest, loosen the little screw on the outer rim of the gauge face and rotate the gauge face so that the hand is pointing at 0.  Hopefully at rest the little hand is also pointing at 0 (some of them point a little before zero, which is also fine).  Next you want to insert the indicator into the adapter and into the injection pump so that it has a 2mm pre-load.  What that means is that you insert it so that the hands start moving and you keep pushing it in until the *little hand* reads 2.5mm - halfway between the 2 and the 3 on the little face (the actual preload amount is not critical - any measurement between 2.5mm and 6mm is fine, but it is good to understand the process).  For a 2.5mm preload, that also means that the big hand will rotated 2 complete revolutions and then another half of a revolution.

OK, preload set at 2.5 mm...  now rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise.  As you rotate the engine CCW, the big hand will rotate with the numbers going *down*.  Watch the gauge for the point where the needle stops moving and when it does stop, you should stop rotating CCW.  Take a quick look at the small hand.  Make sure it has not rotated all the way back to 0.  If it has, then there is some chance that the dial indicator reached the limit of it's range of motion before the part in the pump stopped moving.  If  it did go all the way to 0, then you want to add a little more pre-load by pushing the indicator into the adapter a little further and then rotate the engine CCW a little more to make sure the pump part you are measuring is not still moving.  

Ok, you're now sure that you are at the 'bottom of the pump plunger stroke'.  Next, zero the gauge face.  Loosen the little screw on the side of the indicator and rotate the gauge face so that the large hand is pointing to zero.  So, at this point, you are 30 degrees or so before TDC, the big hand is at 0 and the little hand is between 0 and 1.  

You are now ready to rotate the crank to TDC.  The big hand should start rotating up.  Stop the crank when you get to TDC.  Look at the the big hand and the little hand.  What are they reading?  For correct timing on a stock non-turbo engine, the big hand should be at 90-95 and the little hand should have moved up one increment (now it should be between 1 and 2).  If the reading on the big hand is just a little below 90 and the little hand has moved almost one increment, then the pump needs to be advanced (rotated so the top of the pump moves toward the injectors) just a little bit.  If the reading on the big hand is very small and the little hand has barely moved, then you need to advance it a lot.  If the reading on the big hand is very small but the reading on the little hand has moved up a full increment, then you need to retard the pump a little by rotating the top of the pump away from the injectors.  

Make sense?



Libby, that is the clearest explanation of the process I have ever read.
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