A few Questions

[ShoulderMan]

Hello all.
 I had a few questions. Ive been working on a project for some time now, and as I continue to gather data,

#1  Im wondering if you can tell me if this is an injection pump off of a turbo diesel.   It came off of my 91 NA Jetta 1.6l

http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt157/ShoulderMan78/Vw/IMG00019-20100319-1607.jpg[/img]]

 Sorry about the pic. It came from my phone.

#2  I am also wondering why this pump (IDI) will not work with a 1z (TDI) head. Too Much or to Little pressure?, Not enough fuel output? wrong threads? ...

#3 Another question I had was,  what is the offset of vw wheels. for a 86 golf.  i was looking at some volk te37's  with off sets from 35-48, i dont want my tires sticking out, but i dont want them rubbing eather.

#4 whats the advantage of using 7mm or 8mm valve stems?
 
   Thanks

-Ron

[Vincent Waldon]

#1 Yup that's a turbo-capable pump... the space-ship looking thing on the top senses boost pressure and adjusts the fuel delivery accordingly.  Given the cruise-control module I'd guess late '80s to early '90s, but that's just a guess.

#2 IDI and TDI engines are very different from a design perspective and have very different fueling requirements... as one example the delivery pressure to TDI  injectors is much higher than an IDI injector uses.  TDIs are also computer-controlled using various feedback sensors on the engine... whereas your pump is 100% mechanically controlled.

You *can* build a mechanically-controlled TDI pump (search for "mTDI") but most folks start with a later model AAZ mechanical pump and add various TDI pump bits to get the proper output pressures/volumes etc.

[Rabbit on Roids]

#1 looks like an alt comp pump, but i could be wrong. (go by what vince says, hes a smart cookie)

#2 it just wont work, period, end of story. you can not bolt an idi pump on a TDI engine and have an instant M-Tdi

#3 i dont know the offset, look on the stock wheels, or on the door jamb/fuel door/glove box door or wherever the tire size chart is.

#4 7mm valves flow about 10 cfm better than 8mm valves, but you have to use all the proper 7mm hardware to put 7's in your head.

sounds like you have lots and LOTS of reading and learning to do. theres lots of good topics here to read tho. i gained most of my diesel knowledge from this site. the search tool is your friend!

[ShoulderMan]

perfect,

  Thoes were the answers I was looking for.
 that will allow me to put the idi pump ideas to rest.
 
 I have read lots and lots, heare and there,  and have so much more to learn.

  Though,.. I have not seen anyone try to use an Inline pump.  is there a reason why?   or is it not compatible at all?

another thought... could one take a 6bt inline pump, get a new cam grind (re lobe it for the first 4 injections only, and remove last 2 lobes) ? or do the same with the 6ve version?


 
 

[Rabbit on Roids]

perfect,

  Thoes were the answers I was looking for.
 that will allow me to put the idi pump ideas to rest.
 
 I have read lots and lots, heare and there,  and have so much more to learn.

  Though,.. I have not seen anyone try to use an Inline pump.  is there a reason why?   or is it not compatible at all?

another thought... could one take a 6bt inline pump, get a new cam grind (re lobe it for the first 4 injections only, and remove last 2 lobes) ? or do the same with the 6ve version?


 
 

why would you only use 4 ports of a 5.9 pump when you could just get a 4BTA inline pump. already set up for a 4 banger.
or you could get the pump off of a mercedes 4 cyl.

but i have seen no builds with inline pumps. Aki-76 has something up his sleeve tho with an inline pump on his super frankenstein engine. but then again, Aki has one of the most balls-to-the-wall builds i have ever seen. and he needs all tue fuel he can get.

[ShoulderMan]

Main reason, is that I already have a 6bt injection pump,  which is good for 400+ hp and can rev up to to 5000rpm

[Turbinepowered]

Main reason, is that I already have a 6bt injection pump,  which is good for 400+ hp and can rev up to to 5000rpm

On an engine four times bigger than the 1.6.

For the most part, the fuel pump that comes on the cars has the potential to support far more fueling than you can supply air to combust it in. You'll lift a head long before you hit the limits of what you can do with a sufficiently modified distributor pump.

In order to mount any kind of pump other than a rotary injection pump, you get to go through a whole lot of uncharted waters. If you want to do it, and don't mind the usual line of failures that comes with blazing a trail. Mounting it, turning it, you get to make new fuel lines and get them tuned properly to length and balance... and it's not really necessary unless you're already running the ragged edge of power, with all the supporting mods already done: girdle, rods, crank nose, studs, bigger studs, valving, cam... and so on and so forth.

[Smokey Eddy]

after seeing that thread of the crazy european guys making the 1.6's make like 250hp and untold amounts of torque and then lifting the head - they said you would need to double the clamping points. essentially somehow make a thicker block and put studs on either side of each cylinder in addition to what's already there.

I'm not too bothered on "testing the limits". I know what is too much and i know what is reasonable. im trying to get somewhere in the middle.
don't waste your time trying to make a 250hp 1.6 IDI. that's my advice anyways.
you're much better off with at LEAST a tdi. but even still its hard to keep the two halves together.

[Rabbit on Roids]

after seeing that thread of the crazy european guys making the 1.6's make like 250hp and untold amounts of torque and then lifting the head - they said you would need to double the clamping points. essentially somehow make a thicker block and put studs on either side of each cylinder in addition to what's already there.

I'm not too bothered on "testing the limits". I know what is too much and i know what is reasonable. im trying to get somewhere in the middle.
don't waste your time trying to make a 250hp 1.6 IDI. that's my advice anyways.
you're much better off with at LEAST a tdi. but even still its hard to keep the two halves together.

i wish kev would see this, its a good piece of wisdom. about having twice as many studs.

we need studs in between the cylinders, and on the outsides of the cyls too. thirteen more studs should do the trick!

[Vincent Waldon]

#1 looks like an alt comp pump

That is an altitude compensation pump

Yuppers, good catch gents... my aging eyes can now clearly see the black atmospheric vent on the *top* side of the dome.   

[ShoulderMan]

on the subject of heads,

■ Are they all made (cast) out of the same material?
  or is the 1.6l different from the 1.9 aaz, 1.9 1z and the new 1.9 tdis?
mainly wondering about the material used for the 1z?

■ At what psi do the heads tend to lift?

■ Wouldent O-ringing the block help keep the head on?

■ What about the use of a head girdle?  

■ Your thoughts on utilizing a water manafold  (running water to the head first, then to the block) eliminating the stock water pump

■ Isnt the amount of flow more important the the amount of Boost?   I see lots of 20-30+ psi,  with only 100hp per liter.  though ive also seen 12-20 psi push 150-200hp per liter

■  while more head studs could increase clamping force,  doesent that also increase the block deformity when the head is clamped on?   which is why you should use a torque plate while boaring the cylinders.  

[ShoulderMan]

Its not your aging eyes but my blury picture.   Here is a better set.

 

[Turbinepowered]

on the subject of heads,

■ Are they all made (cast) out of the same material?
  or is the 1.6l different from the 1.9 aaz, 1.9 1z and the new 1.9 tdis?
mainly wondering about the material used for the 1z?

The 1.5, 1.6 and 1.9 AAZ are all indirect injected engines. They have swirl chambers in the head, where most of the combustion takes place.

All of the TDIs are DI engines. The whole chamber is in the piston, and the head is flat.

You can't put a DI head on an IDI engine, without also swapping the pistons.

■ Wouldn't O-ringing the block help keep the head on?

■ What about the use of a head girdle?  

■ Your thoughts on utilizing a water manifold  (running water to the head first, then to the block) eliminating the stock water pump

Why would o-ringing the head keep the head from lifting? The head lifts because peak and sustained cylinder pressures push it up off the block deck.  O-rings help with lateral pressure, to keep you from blowing a headgasket.

Where would a head-girdle go?

Why add more complexity right off the bat?

If you're coming from a world of high-horsepower gas engines, start small with a diesel, make a few tweaks, ignore the HP numbers, and drive it. 120 diesel horsepower feels like a whole lot more than 120 horses.

[ShoulderMan]

I do understand the differences between the idi heads and the tdi heads,
 but im wondering if there is a differents between the material they use to cast the head.  cast iron, aluminum, different alloy,  between the idi and the tdi.  if there is a difference, does anyone know what the 1z head is made up of?
 
   I ask because it seems as if you can boost a tdi engine further than an idi.... Now, is this only because of the C/R?  or as well as the material used?  im sure they have the same number of head studs.

 
 as far as the head girdle, ive heard talk of one being used,  i know nothing more than that, (possibility just speculation)

I cant seem to understand how you can boost a gasser 4-6-8cyl to 40-60psi run a race (long or short) and not lift a head  but it seems so much easier to do with the vw diesels. where does the big difference lay?

and not to overly complicate things,  but would it be of any benifit to run tension bolts from the head all the way down to the main bearing? as they do in the 1.2l tdi


 THanks

[Turbinepowered]

What Andrew said.

Most boosted race gassers are running maybe 7-8:1 compression. 44 pounds of boost (5:1 pressure ratio, by the way) run into a 7:1 compression engine results in an effective compression ratio of 35:1. Some of the big-boost engines run as low as 6:1.

Those same 44 pounds of boost (again, 5:1 pressure ratio across the turbo) in an IDI diesel (23.5:1 CR) results in 117.5:1 effective compression ratio. Even neglecting temperature increases, you're looking at over 1700 pounds of pressure per square inch! And that's before any fuel starts burning, so that's not even peak cylinder pressure.

By contrast, the boosted gasser is only seeing 500-600psi before the fuel starts burning.

That's the first I've heard of the 1.2TDI having bolts going all the way through; where'd you hear that?