Author Topic: Exhaust Upgrade  (Read 3569 times)

October 05, 2009, 10:37:32 am

MizpahPAH

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Exhaust Upgrade
« on: October 05, 2009, 10:37:32 am »
Been shopping around and reading / searching

I am looking to upgrade the exhaust on my 86 1.6 N/A

and turbo it in the near future

from what I have read 2.5 to 2.75 is about the sweet spot

one local guy said my N/A would fall on its face if I went that big
another guy said I might loose a little tourqe

any suggetions

Reply #1October 05, 2009, 10:41:33 am

dennis

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2009, 10:41:33 am »
That may be true for gassers, but diesels like to breath.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 01:25:57 pm by dennis »
1980 Caddy TD (Always in progress)
1983 Volvo 245 D24 NA Building D24T
1980 Air-cooled Westy
1956 F100 (What to do???))

Reply #2October 05, 2009, 12:49:56 pm

gilligan5000

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2009, 12:49:56 pm »
the exhaust flange on the stock turbo's is 2.5".  Honestly, the bigger the better.  Bigger exhaust=lower exhaust gas temperatures= your head won't turn into molten aluminum.  If you are patient, and a decent welder, you can fab one up with a couple of mandrel bends in a weekend.  I made my turbo-back 3" for under $200...just for a benchmark. 

Whatever you do, don't go to a muffler shop and get raped for $500 on a crinkle bent, 2.25"...you won't be happy, and neither will your motor.

Reply #3October 05, 2009, 04:44:58 pm

GEE-BEE

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 04:44:58 pm »
I did 2'5 S/S downpipe techtonic'sK03 turbo aaz on my MK caddy,followed with a complete 2'5 S/S exhaust
I did ceramic coat the tail section pipe as am going to install a tip also

DOWNPIPE WAS 300.00

EXHAUST WAS 315.00



So this was a bargain for me , I did send my turbo assy since yhey did not have a K03 pattern, Just the K14 type

Gee-Bee

I did pickup a perfect K03 turbo today from ebay U.K. for 97.00

Search under vw 1.9 L AAZ and you find several bargain's
1.9 AAZ, CHD 5spd with Peloquin
KO4/KO3 Hybrid turbo
Giles Pump OHC
Complete Techtonics 2'5 S/S DP and Exhaust
Coilovers, MKII Pedal Swap,G60 BRAKES
MK1 JETTA DASH
675MM 16V radiator (MKII) PASSAT DUAL FAN
42K original miles , South African Front End
15x6 Le Casletts 195-45-15

Reply #4October 05, 2009, 10:04:08 pm

MizpahPAH

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 10:04:08 pm »
The guy at the one shop quoted me $270 for 2.75 and said he would hook me up with muffler that wouldnt be annoying,

he dirves a 90's jetta and has a VW tattoo  ;D

not sure what to do only that I need / want to go larger,

Maybe stop at harbor freight and see how much a pipe bender is and then try to fix my mig welder and do some practice welds
I hate harbor freight but if its cheap enough

Reply #5October 06, 2009, 04:53:55 am

gilligan5000

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 04:53:55 am »
The guy at the one shop quoted me $270 for 2.75 and said he would hook me up with muffler that wouldnt be annoying,

he dirves a 90's jetta and has a VW tattoo  ;D

not sure what to do only that I need / want to go larger,

Maybe stop at harbor freight and see how much a pipe bender is and then try to fix my mig welder and do some practice welds
I hate harbor freight but if its cheap enough

Muffler - with a turbo there is absolutely no need for a muffler, you will be very suprised at how quiet your exhaust will be.

pipe bender is - those are meant for thick walled DOM tubing for roll cages, push bars, stuff like that.  Exhaust tubing will simply kink and fold in half on those.  Go to http://www.mandrelbends.com/product_info.php?cPath=33_47&products_id=135 for the 2.5"...you will need two kits no matter what size you get.

The 3" is a little tough to get over the rear beam...but it does fit



This is what I used : http://www.mandrelbends.com/product_info.php?cPath=33_47&products_id=140
if you are going this route let me know...there is a guy in canada that laser cuts the turbo flanges pretty cheap.  I think mine was $8.

Reply #6October 06, 2009, 09:35:17 am

clbanman

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 09:35:17 am »
Been shopping around and reading / searching

I am looking to upgrade the exhaust on my 86 1.6 N/A

and turbo it in the near future

from what I have read 2.5 to 2.75 is about the sweet spot

one local guy said my N/A would fall on its face if I went that big
another guy said I might loose a little tourqe

any suggetions

Absolutely do this, especially if you don't turbo.  I went from stock to 2.25" I.D. on my 500,000 km+ NA, and it is an unbelievable difference.  I can't help you with pricing as I made my own up from some tubing I had, but do it even before you turbo it.  Search my posts and you'll see pics of what I did.
Calvin
91 VW Golf 1.6NA 5spd

Reply #7October 06, 2009, 09:49:10 am

burn_your_money

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 09:49:10 am »
When my exhaust fell off my car, I noticed a decrease in power. The NA does seem to benefit from some back pressure. If you are going turbo though, go big.
Tyler

Reply #8October 06, 2009, 10:38:19 am

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 10:38:19 am »
Most places require a safety inspection in the USA.
A few states don't. Mine does.
Exhaust system is the main thing that gets failed usually.
No muffler - no pass - no drive - until corrected.
So take that into consideration when doing the system.
You could have the muffler clamped in instead of welding it - and have a strait pipe made to replace it after inspection.
Then just do the swap once a year for inspections.
If that applies to you.

An NA without a muffler is a loud sob.
Way too loud for a slow car.

If your region is very strict on the inspections and you don't have a "go-to-guy" you will even need a resonator in addition to the muffler, to pass inspection on some mk2 diesel. They have pull-up charts/diagrams they are supposed to cross reference on exhaust system inspections.

just fwiw in case it applies to you.

Reply #9October 06, 2009, 06:14:08 pm

macka

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 06:14:08 pm »
 A pipe bender is not a tubing bender, It is for pipe and conduit, it's dies are specced differently as piping has different wall thicknesses and whatnot. A poor mans mandrel can be had by capping one end of the tube, filling it with fine sand (used sand blast media is good, so is very fine beach sand) and capping off the other end. I've heard you can also fill the tube with water, freeze it, bend it, and let the ice melt out. If you have a friend at a muffler shop, the tubing bender there is perfect, you just need to make your poor mans mandrel.
        FWIW gilligan all tubing will collapse somewhat when bent even with a mandrel. You can use a pipe bender to bend tubes, but you need to cheat a bit and use tubing dies, and a poor mans mandrel. If you have DOM it is much stronger then the average CREW and HREW tubing as there is no seam on DOM as it is extruded through a die, instead of rolled and welded. Most hand held pipe benders will bend before heavy walled DOM. At work we use everything from .75 all the way up to 36", we also use 72" on the chip feeders.
Quote from: Vincent Walden
I do know that I drive torque,  while listening to my friends prattle on about horsepower.

Reply #10October 06, 2009, 06:20:13 pm

truckinwagen

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 06:20:13 pm »
there is some mention of a little backpressure being a good thing on N/A cars.

what about a supercharged one?
83 Opel Kadett Diesel

Reply #11October 06, 2009, 06:33:39 pm

macka

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 06:33:39 pm »
there is some mention of a little backpressure being a good thing on N/A cars.

what about a supercharged one?

I'd hazard a guess that being that a supercharger isn't providing and back pressure like a turbo would, you'll probably need some from somewhere.
Quote from: Vincent Walden
I do know that I drive torque,  while listening to my friends prattle on about horsepower.

Reply #12October 07, 2009, 07:47:14 am

lord_verminaard

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 07:47:14 am »
Backpressure is a common misconception.  Backpressure is never good for ANY car, EVER.  It will only hurt efficiency.

Exhaust velocity is actually what you are trying to maximize.  The highest exhaust velocity with respect to volume of flow will net the highest efficiency.  Higher velocity will increase the scavenging effect of exhaust gas out of the head.  That's why if you take a stock naturally aspirated car, chop off the exhaust, or put an insanely large exhaust on it, you will lose torque especially at the low RPM range, because exhaust velocity is very low, even if the potential volume of gas exiting the engine is high, there will be no scavenging effect and that makes the engine work harder.  Look at a typical Honda factory exhaust.  It's very small, like 1.5" or so, since most Honda engines make maximum HP at high rpm's, they increase velocity at low RPM's to keep the torque up.  When a typical Honda enthusiast buys a stock Civic and slaps a bigger exhaust on there, it becomes a slug at lower RPM's but gains a few HP on the top and they think they have done something clever.  Only by modifying intake air through a new manifold, throttle body, cams, etc... can they get the velocity back up to match the exhaust and actually gain power throughout the RPM range. 

Turbo cars are different.  Having a turbo bolted to the manifold is like having a brick in the exhaust- turbos create a lot of backpressure in the manifold.  Remember what I said earlier?  Backpressure is BAD.  That's why turbos are not 100% efficient.  So exhaust velocity makes little to no difference in a turbo car after it exits the turbine- in fact, the turbo pretty much has to "push" the gas out of the turbine section, so anything you can do to help the exhaust move away from the turbo will increase efficiency some- so the bigger the exhaust the better, up to a certain point.  Some new downpipe designs have a cone-shape as it exits the turbine, the theory is, the exhaust gasses, which are still very hot and at some times, still burning, expand as they exit the turbine, the cone-shape helps expel the gasses away from the turbine which can increase velocity and increase efficiency.

Supercharged cars sort of fall in the middle of this problem.  They are capable of moving a lot more exhaust gas volume, since they are being fed additional air from the charger, so they typically require larger exhausts, since they will be expelling more gasses.  But there is still probably a limit to how big you can go before once again, velocity goes down, which would make the engine (and the supercharger) work harder.

With a naturally-aspirated Diesel, I would imagine it can tolerate a larger exhaust proportionally to a gasser, mainly because the ratio of intake valve size to exhaust valve size is closer in a VW diesel as opposed to a gasser- that is, the diesels have smaller intake valves but larger exhaust valves when compared to a counter-flow VW 8v gas car.  The only real way to know what effect a larger exhaust would be is to take it to the dyno and measure the differences.

Brendan
81 Scirocco 'S -->Soon to be m-TDI
93 Corrado SLC VR6
'86 Golf N/A Diesel  -->Wife's car
1990 Audi CQ
05 New Beetle PD TDI


"I am a man, I can change... if I have to.... I guess....."

-Red Green

Reply #13October 07, 2009, 09:03:09 pm

MizpahPAH

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 09:03:09 pm »
I went to day and got a local guy to fab me up a 2.5,

He did a great job!!

no radical bends painted all the welds new hangers under $300

Growles real nice midrange when I step into it.

the old exhaust had a lot of soot.

It did seem to loose a bit of tourqe just noticable nothing terrible so I turned the fuel screw up

OOOOHHHH MMMAANN I am liking it a lot
Thanks for all your posts and Info

Reply #14October 08, 2009, 11:58:14 pm

rabbitman

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Re: Exhaust Upgrade
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 11:58:14 pm »
I was real nice to the local exhaust fabber and he though my project was pretty neat so he bent a 2.5" pipe up for 45 bucks! ;D It was a quick job, mostly done just holding my stock exhaust beside the other one. It wasn't perfect though, I test fitted it and brought it back the next day for improvments and then it took part of 2 days to install it. I did all the welds (I'm even proud of some of 'em ;D) and bent the hanger from flat bar. It's still slightly too loud for my likings though, and it drones a little too much, I might just slap a muffler in and call it good. 8)
'82 Rabbit, I put on a euro vnt-15, 2.25" DP, 2.5" exhaust, the result.....it whistled.

I removed the turbo, made a toilet bowl 2.5" DP, the result....it was deafening. Now it has a homemade muffler up front and a thrush in the rear, the result.....less loud.
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