Anyone with an mTDI that really works?

[jackbombay]

There were EGR systems fitted to VW diesels as early as the '84 quantum...

   Maybe 85? The 84 TD quantum in my driveway has no EGR, and is all original, or maybe California cars got the EGR?

   On those older set-ups is the percent of EGR controlled by the go pedal? Ideally for NOx control you want a lot of EGR at lower throttle settings, less at high throttle setting, and none at WOT.

[Otis2]

I was at a dyno shootout this summer and all the e-TDIs on the dyno were smoking a heckuvalot more than mine.

Can you post the dyno HP and torque graphs for all these vehicles?  Or at least for your van?

We all love a good dyno graph.

[jtanguay]

There were EGR systems fitted to VW diesels as early as the '84 quantum...

   Maybe 85? The 84 TD quantum in my driveway has no EGR, and is all original, or maybe California cars got the EGR?

   On those older set-ups is the percent of EGR controlled by the go pedal? Ideally for NOx control you want a lot of EGR at lower throttle settings, less at high throttle setting, and none at WOT.

you will also have some nice deposits in the intake from the EGR, unless you completely polish it, as well as the head...  EGR is good in theory but can be quite destructive to an engine.  more soot is deposited in the oil, which means more frequent oil changes (unless you use a nice bypass oil filter)

does EGR really help??? by forcing people to buy new motors, or have theirs repaired due to a clogged system?  i think in the long run that many engines will be scrapped due to EGR related issues, negating its benefit.  if the valve of the EGR stays open, your car will run like a heap of crap and someone who doesn't know any better, will probably scrap it and buy a new one, or possibly take it in for an outrageous bill (unless they are handy)

but thats my 2 cents on EGR.  good in theory  :wink:  one promising piece of technology is the particulate filter.  that thing is pretty neat!!!

[fairweather]

Jack,

Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal.

You seem to itching for some kind of confrontation here. I am not making any claims but you on the other hand make them all the time.

You are coming up with some very specific numbers and since you are "one of the few that have a thorough understanding" of how e and m-TDIs function I could only assume that you have some documented resources backing up your claims.

Is revealing your source really that big of a deal? Based on your statements you must have a study that has compared a mechanically controlled TDI vs an e-TDI in the same vehicle, same engine. Seems reasonable doesn't it. I'm guessing it would have to come from Europe though since as far as I know there aren't any production m-TDI vehicles in the US. You say you are looking for a baseline which I agree is important. I am certainly not qualified to say what that should be, that's why I'm asking you. You seem to be suggesting that it should be a vanagon not sure why that appeared? The EGR delete can be done to either e or m so not sure where you are going with that. The EGR in a vanagon is a choice,mine came with it but has since been eliminated. The link to the TDI page doesn't say anything about emission comparisons between the two everything else being equal.

Since VW has spent money and time on R&D for the electronics I'd assume that they have done some studies showing the improvements over an identical system only with mechanical control. You'd think the electronics would give us an improvement in mileage as well as emissions. Did VW just keep their fingers crossed?

Maybe if you revealed your source instead of getting defensive you would have some converts. I am only looking for some real info in a world of lofty claims. I think alot of people are concerned about emissions, please educate us. I went with mechanical to avoid the electrical pitfalls involved in a conversion and to not have to replace MAFs, MAPs, ECMs  etc..., there is no hard data on emissions so it wasn't a factor.

Not trying to get into a competition with you over who knows what, you can win that one but when you quote specific stats they don't really mean much to me without a little back up. I don't think that is a difficult request and no I don't think you're "dishonest and making up BS". Why so defensive? What I'm asking for is pretty basic stuff. If you don't have it just say so.

I do not have any data sheets, didn't have the time or inclination to interview everyone at the GTG. The dyno was having issues, throwing some very strange numbers for everyone so in light of what I just wrote I won't propagate misinformation.

Not trying to argue with you just asking for information. The only thing I know about emissions is what I see so come on Jack reveal your source.

Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal. :?

[lord_verminaard]

I'm not even sure why emissions are being discussed in the first place.  Run biodiesel, problem solved.  

Brendan

[jackbombay]

I do not have any data sheets, didn't have the time or inclination to interview everyone at the GTG. The dyno was having issues, throwing some very strange numbers for everyone so in light of what I just wrote I won't propagate misinformation.

    So why did you make the initial post only to admit now that it was misinformation?
 

Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal. :?

  Wash my car :roll:

  So now all the TDIs sold from 1996 to 2003 can't be considered e-TDIs?

  Besides, you're not asking for specific data, if I posted info about what you are asking for you just respond with "Thats not how my M-TDI is set up."

    Its pretty far fetched that an assortment of parts and pieces that runs decently just so happens to have the same or less emissions than something built by professional engineers who absolutely must meet emissions standards or their cars can't be sold, don't you think?

[jackbombay]

Run biodiesel

   That does increase the NOx emissions compared to running petro diesel, fwiw.

[blackdogvan]

but thats my 2 cents on EGR.  good in theory  :wink:  one promising piece of technology is the particulate filter.  that thing is pretty neat!!!

Talked to a bud up in Fort Mac last night, all ford diesels with a particulate filter have been banned from most oil companies work sites. I had heard they had problems with the burn cycle to clean the filter but...
FYI its supposed to do this but at highway speeds only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v36MCcRPRTc

Is there a exhaust filter with the bluetech pee-pee injection system vw licenced from mercedes?

Now lets all be gentlemen, this is a interesting thread & I'd hate to see it get locked!
I would imagine someone would be able to find performance data from a m-tdi vs e-tdi LT 2.8 van. I would love to see some dyno data & background tuning history for a 1.9 m-tdi.

[fairweather]

Jack this is easy.

Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal.

A simple reference to a substantiated study would do it and we'd be done.

Obviously you don't have anything, enough said.

Thanks for your time.

PS. I love my pop-top shocks.

[jackbombay]

A simple reference to a substantiated study would do it and we'd be done.

    I don't think you believe there exists a study comparing a VW TDI missing a various assortment of parts to another TDI that is missing even more parts with a random assortment of parts thrown back on to make it run, do you?

   On the red herring scale I'll give that a 9.8

   The thing is, every new generation of TDIs is cleaner than the generation before it, and not just a little bit cleaner, way cleaner. But of course in your comparison the engines have to be exactly the same... huh? They aren't the same, thats the point, it is not "detrimentally modify the better one to minimize its chances of "winning" and then test them."

   What can we do? We can apply theory to the situation and come to a pretty reasonable conclusion about the topic at hand, there is actually just about all the info you need in this thread to figure how the emissions from a "how you think an e-tdi should be set-up" compared to the emissions of "how  you think an M-tdi should be set-up." will vary.

PS. I love my pop-top shocks.

  Thanks!  I popped my roof today with 4" of snow on it without much hassle, so nice having them.

[Fridge]

regcheese, did you get this sorted? I want to put a di head on an idi isuzu engine so i could benefit form learning how to do this.
I understand that Giles does this for a living but i can't afford to post my pump to the US and back, as well as the work!

Snakemaster, your mdi pump, where did that come from?

[fairweather]

Fairweather, I'm wondering if you could comment on what you believe is(are) the reason(s) that VW installed a complete computer controlled engine management system on their TDI engines?

I can certainly comment on it. You would think that all the R&D and production involved with the TDI would get us better emissions, better mileage , and greater reliability but that isn't necessarily the case from what I can decipher from posts on mileage of the 09s vs older models.

To use an example that I read about today, the model T got 25mpg and Ford's average mpg is currently less than that. Yes more power is available but is that all you get for millions of R&D dollars and 100 years? Seems quite pathetic to me.

Another personal example is that my 1984 Toyota 22R that was essentially a mechanically controlled engine got 28-30 mpg and my 04 V40 gets the same mileage with several hundred pounds of electronics. (Both 4cyl)

I don't live in an area where we need to get emissions tested so I can't compare those numbers but given the time involved and the money that auto companies have (or had) you'd think they'd come up with something better than that. Independent developers have proven time and again that it is possible o build a production car with better economy than is generally available now (go to Europe if you don't believe me)

My inlaws used to own a car dealership and so have some insider info and that is "We don't make money on selling new cars, we make money on service and parts" So my theory is that a large part of the electronic movement is to keep the dealerships in the money because they make more parts that have planned obsolescence and are more difficult or impossible for the home mechanic to maintain/replace or even diagnose. (Most of the TDI owners aren't on here studying)

That is the reason why I would like to see a study that compared a 2009 m-TDI with a 2009 e-TDI (substitute any year you want just as long as they are the same). I really don't think a study like that would be unreasonable. Then do a study of the maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle and i think we could see some interesting economics.

So to sum it up, I think a very large part of why electronics were developed is to keep the service centers in the money. Not saying economy plays a part but I don't think it is the driving force.

[jackbombay]

Fairweather, I'm wondering if you could comment on what you believe is(are) the reason(s) that VW installed a complete computer controlled engine management system on their TDI engines?

I can certainly comment on it. You would think that all the R&D and production involved with the TDI would get us better emissions, better mileage , and greater reliability but that isn't necessarily the case from what I can decipher from posts on mileage of the 09s vs older models.

  Have you seen a 09 in real life? Have you smelled the exhaust? Even when cold started at 30* F the exhaust is odorless, its just warm air coming out of the tailpipe, amazing really.

  We are comparing a ve pumped M-tdi to a ve pumped E-tdi, I think Andrew wants to know why specifically VW decided to make the rotary pumped TDI electronic.

[flapjack]

To use an example that I read about today, the model T got 25mpg and Ford's average mpg is currently less than that. Yes more power is available but is that all you get for millions of R&D dollars and 100 years? Seems quite pathetic to me.

I don't agree. R&D for all the car makers combined over 100 years is probably in the bazillions. It is still a small price to pay for not having to crank the engine by hand.
I have no facts to back up my opinions but I doubt all electronics were developed to keep  you from fixing your car.

[theman53]

I have been restraining myself...as I don't think this pertains to the OP
I am an evil conservative. I don't believe that humans are the cause of global warming...or cooling...or global climate change or if we are we are a very small percentage. To a point I could care less about emissions now. Back when diesel was 5,000 ppm of sulfur, maybe, but not now. My mom has an 06TDI and I think it is just fine, but so are my old cars. Hers smokes less than my MK1 and MK2 most times, but once again I don't care. With a car that is getting 40 some MPG to go that 40 miles you are only using 1 gallon. Matter not being created or destroyed there is only so much possible emissions that "could" be created by that gallon no matter how it is burnt. Pour it on a fire and still it can only have so much bad to it. Now in the same gallon there could be differences in how it burns different levels of NOx etc, but  gallon is a gallon. If you were really thinking then my brother in laws 18 wheeler that gets at best 6 MPG no matter how much pollution equipment is going to emit more than our 4 cylinder 1.6-2.0s.
The difference between Mtdi Etdi in VW 4 cylinders to me is like trying to separate fly sh1t from pepper, yes it could be done,yes there are probably some noticable differences, but in the end all the time wasted just isn't worth it. In a years time or the life of the car what does it add up to? We have all probably used enough electricity by using this forum to off set that difference anyway. It is almost like saying "my male organ is 1.9mm long...oh yeah mine is 2.0mm long and cleaner." Either way me or your wife won't notice or care. I would love to see a comparison through all the years of vw diesel emissions, stock setups and new engines of course just to see how much cleaner it is.
I don't mean to offend anyone just a rant letting you all know I don't care about emissions levels from our little engines, back to topic.