changing a timing belt, without loosing the timing??

[8v-of-fury]

Like the title suggests.. I would like to learn how to change the timing belt, along with keeping the timing as close as possible while doing so.

Now i know somebody will snap back with search it, or read a bentley! lol I have searched and can't find what I am looking for because everyone's thread has the use of timing tools (something i don't have, yet). I am doing a Gas to N/a swap and am replacing the belt and Tensioner so that I can record the exact time it was put on so i don't have to trust the PO.

your help would be greatly appreciated. thank you in advanced.

[arb]

:-D

Welcome to the swap club !!  Yes, you are wise to do the belt and tensioner now as if either fail, you'll break some metal. As far as timing, there is likely to be some small changes in the geometry when you change them, so you really should spend the $79 to get the tools. Besides, its possible the timing is not dead on now.

I don't know these guys, but here's an example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Diesel-Injector-Pump-Timing-Gauge-Tools-Injection_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem250321375953QQitemZ250321375953QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Audi-Jetta-Diesel-Injektion-timing-Set-New_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem140281351860QQitemZ140281351860QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools
This one you'll need to use a flat piece of steel to locate the cam
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Diesel-Bosch-Engine-Timing-Tools-Set-VW-Audi-Volvo-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem120331314219QQitemZ120331314219QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

[beew]

assuming your timing is good now...

i used a paint pen and marked the old belt's relation to every gear and every gears relation to the timing cover before taking it off. Then i marked the new belt the same as the old one and installed it lining everything back up the way it was.

[79rabbit4dr]

I would like to learn how to change the timing belt, along with keeping the timing as close as possible while doing so.

Now i know somebody will snap back with search it, or read a bentley! lol I have searched and can't find what I am looking for because everyone's thread has the use of timing tools (something i don't have, yet).

Here is my thread on my first experience changing out the belts, and putting in a new water pump - which you might want to do if you haven't already.

Also, read Vince Waldon's write up, he gives you some additional choices for "tools" to use when locking cam/ip in place.

Otherwise, Beew's suggestion about marking everything would get you your "timing as close as possible" without actually checking the timing (not recommended)

You could probably find someone who lives close by and borrow their tools, seems like lots of people are from Ontario on here.
FYI, I bought the e-bay tool set from the german guy, they're top notch and I don't regret the $120's or so to get them to my door.

the tricky part for me was tightening the tensioner, it seemed to pull the crank/flywheel TDC mark out of position - WITH EVERYTHING LOCKED IN PLACE, then I had to loosen up and move the belt 1 tooth to kind of "pre-load" it so when tightened, the mark for TDC was still showing. Runs like a champ! I'm in the process of changing the HG so i'll have to do it all over again soon.

[beew]

Otherwise, Beew's suggestion about marking everything would get you your "timing as close as possible" without actually checking the timing (not recommended)

notice i said "assuming your timing is good now..." meaning it is already properly set.
my method would put the timing exactly where it was before not "as close as possible".
please correct me if im wrong

[burn_your_money]

You will also be assuming that you will tension the new belt exactly the same amount as the old one was.

I've timed many VW diesels, so one time I figured, what the heck, it's cold out and I'm in a hurry so I did the mark and pray. Bad idea. My pump timing was out by 0.40mm and it ran like a bag of crap. I had to redo the whole job.

IM me if you want me to come up there and teach you how to do it with my tools. It's not free though

[beew]

You will also be assuming that you will tension the new belt exactly the same amount as the old one was.

I've timed many VW diesels, so one time I figured, what the heck, it's cold out and I'm in a hurry so I did the mark and pray. Bad idea. My pump timing was out by 0.40mm and it ran like a bag of crap. I had to redo the whole job.

IM me if you want me to come up there and teach you how to do it with my tools. It's not free though

ill save my money..im am quite capable of doing it.
i just made a suggestion..it worked for me i guess i got lucky.
i apologize for any misinformation

[8v-of-fury]

thank you all for answers ultimately proving my fear.. Need the tools! LOL

But if i can get the timing "almost correct" atleast i can get the car running and moving... then get the tools on the next pay cheque.. (max my spending out in one week, now i gotta go a week with out money) lol

I can use the car sparingly until I get the timing 100%, but atleast i can still get around in it.

Say there Burn what do you charge?

[79rabbit4dr]

Otherwise, Beew's suggestion about marking everything would get you your "timing as close as possible" without actually checking the timing (not recommended)

notice i said "assuming your timing is good now..." meaning it is already properly set.
my method would put the timing exactly where it was before not "as close as possible".

I was quoting 8v-of-fury because he said he wanted to get it "as close as possible." I thought your method would work just fine... I had no idea about variances in belt tension, production variances, etc... we're all here to discuss and learn. Me especially!

But if i can get the timing "almost correct" at least i can get the car running and moving

MAKE SURE YOU HAND CRANK THE MOTOR A FEW REVOLUTIONS TO BE DANG SURE A PISTON/VALVE COLLISION ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

[myke_w]

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades - coincidentally vw diesel motors when improperly timed become one of the former - and it aint the horseshoe

One more vote for doing the job with the tools.

[8v-of-fury]

damnit! lol more stuff to set back my swap date.. :@! LOL

Well crap... and i have to do it to do the swap too cuz i need to put the mk1 mount on the block.. lol SH!TE!

looks like the swap will have to wait...

[maxfax]

i need to put the mk1 mount on the block.. lol SH!TE!

The different bracket is another aspect that could change where your timing would be..  

Do like the old farts, time it by ear (JUST KIDDING!!!)..  Gotta know what your listening for to be able to do that, and it still requires a vast amount of experinece and luck...

[burn_your_money]

libbybapa - if you are doing the mark and pray, you won't have the tension on the belts in the right spot, and when you tension the belt it is going to move everything since the cam sprocket will still be attached to the camshaft.

I always turn the motor over in the proper direction of rotation and recheck everything so that the tension is in the right spot like you say

[79rabbit4dr]

That is why I repeatedly get on the soapbox to make sure timing is set with the belt totally taut between the pulleys and all slack in the tensioner area.

when I adjusted my timing, i had to advance it (push the ip towards the block) which seemed to put a tiny bit more slack between the cam gear and the IP gear, but if I pulled the belt as taut as it would go, I ended up tooth on tooth with the IP gear and belt. How do you fix this or is it inevitable to have slack there?

it's runny really well right now but I noticed belt shavings in the timing belt cover when I bought it - before I replaced the belt/adjusted timing. Also, the inside of the cover was all black except for the area between the cam and IP which was worn down to bear metal  :shock: