1.5TD Pumps do exist (The 1.5TD project)

[saurkraut]

Oh, and I sprayed the whole underside, wheel wells, and engine compartment with LPS 3.  I used to use cosmolene, but its been declaired a carcinogen and is getting hard to find.

I bought two gallons of LPS 3 from McMaster Carr, $40 per gallon.  I think I used slightly less than 1/2 gallon total so far.  I have to spray the inside of the doors yet, but that shouldn't use much more.

[saurkraut]

I kind of blind sided the Bosch rebuilder in Chicago.  I put an LDA top on a yellow dot 1.5 pump and sent it off to them with no other instructions other than rebuild it.  They apparently contacted the Father land for rebuilding instructions.  The pump came back from the rebuilder (re tagged) with instruction, supposedly from Bosch in Germany, to run it at 1.00.

Since my plan was to run the engine at twice the stock boost pressure, I decided to up the break pressure to avoid secondary injection from the resulting high cylinder pressure.

http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11698.210

[RabbitJockey]

mercedes compression ratio is a little lower at 21:1

[fatmobile]

I was wondering if they cut the stud short on the inside.
 I think upping the governor screw increases fuel, like the max fuel screw but at a different curve.
 I drive a 1.5 and it does seem to get power and go, in the midrange.
 
 I'd have to put a sploosh of yellow paint on the front timing cover... maybe put TD on it.
 
I don't think the 1.00 setting was meant for 170 bar injectors.
 I'd turn the injection pump with it running and set it on the edge of clackity.

[saurkraut]

Hello,

just to came back to the dual spring nozzles, by keeping in mind which time we have at 6000rpm to inject and burn the fuel, for produce power from the burning and not only burn the turbo, in my mind the dual spring injectors are not the one we wand.  (time compl. approx 0,005s, burn delay approx 0,001s )

@ TinTin,

i am sure that there is no possibility to get 200hp from a 1.6 idi engine at lower speed than 5500rpm. Even it were possible, the mechanical stress will increase and reduce reliable of the power train.


@saurkraut

there is no rule to calculate it easy.
I have make a little design program for idi engine with excel, where i can calculate the combustion pressure durin the injection.
At stock and 5500rpm with 0.8 bar boost, it will be approx 120 bar.
At 6000 rpm with 1.8 bar boost and good intercooling, it will be approx 183 bar. So to have the same pressure drop over the injector, the pop pressure should be adjusted to (155+63) approx 220bar. But for staying able to inject the neccesary amount of fuel, i think the 220bar will be to high, so in my feeling approx 180 bar pop pressure should be a good value.


Best Regards

Like i said twice in this post: the 1.00 spec and all the parameters for the pump appearently came directly from Germany.  It was a Bosch certified rebuild joint, and they were literally floored when they recieved this odd ball pump.

And believe me, I did not have a warm fuzzy feeling about the 1.00 static timing specification.  It sure seemed that they were pulling stuff out of their rear ends.  But I had no idea what they did to the pump, and rather than blow off the only input I had, I chose to use the static timing number they provided.

The first start for this engine was with the 135 bar injectors and it rattled like an S.O.B.  But 1.5s rattled more than 1.6s any way.  It also started very nicely for an engine that was re-ringed.  Came up on all cylinders rather quickly.

I am getting over 20 PSI boost easily, and I realize the "secondary injection" thing is somewhat in question, but this is more or less an experimental engine, and therefor, I am incline to try stuff.  And its acceleration is quite impressive, especially with out the tire fire smoke trail, and an alarmingly low EGT.  I drive these things like i stole them, so it will see 20 PSI booste on a frequent (more than hourly) basis.

I've had the LDA pin out a couple times already, and the pin scrape witness mark looks to be 'normal' with the plastic washer still in place.

With the 170 bar injectors, the rattle has subcided noticeably, but its still louder than the 1.6.  So basically, I had two reasons for going to 170 bar: the "secondary injection" thing, and a little hedge against the 1.00 static timing.

With very little time on the engine, and the 170 bar injectors, the 'cold' start (30 F) is very good.

I'll be pulling the head this week end (if I can get to the car *snow storm*) to see if my teeny weeny boost leak is in fact the head gasket.  I had my foot into this thing quite allot, so I'm very interested in seeing what the pistons look like.  Its also getting the metal head gasket too.

If the only down side to 170 bar break pressure is only fuel milage and shorter belt life, I'd be inclined to leave it there.  I change timing belts at half the recomended interval, and how bad can it screw up a 50+ MPG engine's milage?

[saurkraut]

Rotating the LDA to a higher slope makes a noticable difference, so something is working there.  I supose I should pull the top off the pump and to see if they pulled that pin out, or shortened it.  Crap.

I hesatate to say this, and I haven't driven my cranked up 1.6TD recently, but the performance of the 1.5Td, when its wound up, is comparable to the 1.6TD.  Enough to say that I'm glad that I saved an extra 1.5 crank and rods, incase I want to 'destroke the 1.6TD.

The low EGT is really bugging me.

When the 1.5TD is in full service, I'll compair them head to head on my 'measured' distance test strip.  There will be issues of different vehicle weight, speedometer errors and other variables.  But I'm really curious about the performance aspects of the 1.5TD.

[fatmobile]

Like i said twice in this post: the 1.00 spec and all the parameters for the pump appearently came directly from Germany

 Did they know you were going to use 170 bar injectors?
  I know you've said it twice because we keep hounding you on this point. Last time I try, promise.
 Do you understand that the breaking pressure of the injectors effects the timing?

I chose to use the static timing number they provided.

Could have been the right choice, especially with a good cold start.... I'd still have to turn it while running. Rattle has alot to do with timing, retarding the timing a little can reduce rattle and still provide plenty of power.
 I just took a look at the Bentley and they say the yellow dot pump is supposed to be set to .83- .93,... the later non-yellowdot was up around 1.10
 I don't suppose we could get you to take the top off and let us see what they did with the extra post  

[saurkraut]

Nope, they don't know what I'm running my injectors at.  As a matter of fact, they had no Idea what injector pressure I should run as I asked them multiple times, and they never got back to me on that.

This engine is an experiment, running allot of boost, to see if a 'over square' vw diesel will generate significant HP.

There is also some evidence that high cylinder pressure can cause secondary injection.

I had a recomendation to set the break pressure at 180 bar for the boost level I'm running.

Yup, its not set up like the yellow dot pump, its not set up like the standard 1.5 pump, and it seems to run very nicely with the 170 bar injectors at 1.00.

It rattled like mad at 135 bar.

170 bar effectively retards the timing.

Its my impresson from posts on this and other diesel forums that too much advance will melt pistons and not show a high EGT.

I have yet to see someone running retarded timing and running into big trouble.  From my own observations, excessively retarded timeing ( jumping 1 toothe on the injection pump sprocket from an 85 MPH bird stick to the grill) makes BIG EGT.  And this engine is producing discustingly low EGT, so too much retard doesn't seem to be a problem yet.

So, I guess, using the recomended timing, and jacking around with the break pressure is somewhat similar to timing by ear, without the possibility of secondary injection on full boost.

I do not see any other significant down side to running higher break pressure.

If some one can offer me evidence that this is bad jombo, I'll take it under advisement.

Hopefully, I'll have time this weekend when I'm changing over to a metal head gasket to pop open the pump and see what the Bosch pump bunnies left me, and I'll take some super dooper cell phone pics.

[fatmobile]

Yeah, great work.
 I suggest folks turn the pump and listen while it's running, even if they  do know what the injectors break at.  

 About time someone built a 1.5 turbo diesel.
 I want to know what kind of fuel mileage it will get, I expect it to be better then the 1.6.
 I plan to turbo my fresh 1.5. Hope to have it converted to vegy and turboed for the energy fair in June. You aren't too far away maybe we can check each others cars out some time.

 Did you use a 1.5 block or stick the 1.5 internals in a 1.6 block?

[Baselyne]

Ive been working on my 1.5td project for over a year now and saurkraut has been helping to make it all work out with his supporting evidance and experiences...

Im soo anxous to see where the dyno numbers endup on this one...
1.5 shorter stoke td is a killer build
Props

[saurkraut]

I'm really not upset at the questions.  I'm just stating my thought process.  I'm kind of data oriented, so I really like data points to go to when setting up an engine.  And the pressurising cooling system and low EGT kind of absorbed my focus.

The engine is a bone stock 1.5 with new bearings and rings, head studs, metal HG (now), and a 1.6 flywheel and clutch.  It lacks the piston cooling jets.

I suspect that running 155 bar injectors, and retarding the timing does about the same thing as going with the recommended static timing and jacking up the break pressure to reduce the static advance.  The difference is high break pressure may combat the perceived perils of secondary injection.

Honestly, if anyone has some experience/evidence of bad things from too much injection retard, or high break pressure, let me know.


This time I got to work under an old Mercedes.  Don't get too excited, its a gasser



For those who have not seen head studs in a block, here you go.  Doesn't this look allot easier for putting on a gasket and head?



I'll never use a non-metal gasket again. The stock 1.5 gasket probably failed the first time it saw boost.  Cylinders 3 and 4 gave up the ghost.  Massive leaks on both cylinders.  Thank goodness the head was still flat, so it was metal gasket time.



No evidence of heat damage on any of the pistons.



I used a streight edge and feeler gauges to measure piston protrusion with the flywheel on zero.  Probably not the best way, but the vw diesel parts guy was out of stock on the proper tool, so I improvised.  I came up with .034" so I went with the two hole metal gasket.

I had the 50 notch :wink: ( 5 notch) 1.5 gasket in initially, so my compression should be a little higher, but the turbulence in the swirl chambers is probably better.

I used Audi80's idea of useing the oil fill cap gasket to fix the extra drain hole.  With the gasket centered on the studs, the gasket protruded too far out on the front oil drain too.  So i made a half moon from the rubber cap gasket too.

To take up the slop and center the 12mm holes of the metal gasket on the 11mm studs in the block, I used small slivers of rubber gasket material to shim the four corner studs, and hold the gasket centered.

This was very easy, on a 1.6 its a no-brainer



With all four cylinders running on diesel, instead of a diesel/antifreeze mixture, I have more boost and have cured the EGT problem.  I probably have a little too much EGT though.  It shooting out a denser black cloud now too.  If floored at low RPM, the EGT shoots right up and heads for melt down temps.  (the Spruce thermocouple is the way to go, VERY FAST RESPONSE)  If the boost is high, the EGT stabilises at 1250 F.  I ran out of time to do any adjusting, but next weekend I'll be turning things down a little.  Its kind of fly by EGT now.

I was going to pop the top on the pump too, but since the engine is getting more fuel then it needs, I suspect the stop pin has been bobbed.

I think I'll plumb in the ford probe intercooler I have and see if I can sneak it more fuel again.

[Baselyne]

coming along nicly which metal gasket did you end up using? what year?model

happy to hear your pistons are ok, its looking so sweet, props
have you backed it down to 155injectors?

good fix for the exra space on that hole

[saurkraut]

Netrz, got a new combustion leak into the water jacket. :?

I supose its a cracked head this time because both gasket surfaces were great, and I can't see a matal head gasket leaking.

Anybody ever put a 1.6 head on a 1.5 block?  Seems to me that the major issue is the bigger front oil drain on the front of the head.

[Baselyne]

did you get that intercooler on there before this happend?

what boost were you running while this happend on the metal Head gasket>?

[saurkraut]

The head was an unknown quantity.  It might of had a cracked prechamber when I got it.  It was a bare block and crank in the car, and everything else in a box.  The original owner of the engine/car neglected the beejeepers out of it.

Its a very small leak, It can be driven, but the cap on the coolant reservoir keeps hissing.

If the cap is taken off and put back on, the system slowly builds pressure.

With the head gasket blowing very early, and big, it may have masked this slow combustion leak.

I don't have an intercooler installed yet.  The injectors are still at 170 Bar.  My 1.6td has been running 25+ PSI for three years now with no intercooler, and no problems.

Its my informed opinion that the a bigger pipe is the first mod to be done.  Intercoolers are a good thing if done right.  There have been posts on this board of intercoolers that are too small actually screwing up performance.

I'm probably going to put the mechanical 1.6 head off of my 1.6td on my 1.5td.  The 1.6 will get the 1.9 head.  So I have to build that head first and put it on the 1.6.