Author Topic: 1.6L Timing advance curve mod...  (Read 16803 times)

April 21, 2007, 09:24:52 am

TDTech

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« on: April 21, 2007, 09:24:52 am »
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Sure, you can borrow my tools... but the mechanic comes with them.

Reply #1April 21, 2007, 02:11:45 pm

TDTech

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2007, 02:11:45 pm »
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Sure, you can borrow my tools... but the mechanic comes with them.

Reply #2April 21, 2007, 08:01:46 pm

TDTech

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2007, 08:01:46 pm »
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Sure, you can borrow my tools... but the mechanic comes with them.

Reply #3April 21, 2007, 08:17:53 pm

TDTech

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2007, 08:17:53 pm »
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Reply #4April 21, 2007, 09:05:09 pm

Vincent Waldon

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2007, 09:05:09 pm »
Here's some pictures and background reading on a previous discussion about internal pressure and adjusting the regulator:

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5936&highlight=internal+pump+pressure
Vince

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3, 1970 Bay Window bus

Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta

Reply #5April 21, 2007, 09:24:32 pm

Mark(The Miser)UK

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2007, 09:24:32 pm »
Quote from: "TDTech"
I've been rebuilding pumps for 10 years and this "internal pressure" discussion is IRRELAVENT.  This mod is a performance mod...  not some method to skip a pump rebuild because of a worn feed pump or to fix substandard fuels.  It is intended to squeeze more power out of an IDI diesel with a mechanical injection pump, not to restore or change internal pressures.  Increasing the pressures to achieve this type of advance would blow the seals out of the pump.  Besides, you couldn't increase the internal pressures anywhere near enough to gain the advance that this mod gives you.  If you want better acceleration, mod the advance mechanism.

Funny how the story changed from what is clearly a performance mod to "restoring internal pressures" and compensating for ULSD.  That was not the theme of my original post, but the replies somehow shifted.... hmmmm   Again, the discussion is irrelavent.  


It's real simple...  you can do it, or you can not do it... nuff said!



Wow a fight...
take it easy mate. For a mechanic with such experience why so sensitive ? sure your spring fiddling will increase advance with no increase in int pressure but your performance mod also mentions an improvement in economy. What Andrew suggests will also give an improvement in an ageing pump. Restoring internal pump pressure just up to factory levels can't be a bad thing and shouldn't blow healthy oil seals.  
I put it to you that improvements to economy and performance can also be achieved by those who don't feel confident enough to enter the pump simply by rotating the spaceship diaphragm.
 If anyone is looking for improvements in economy as a priority then reducing break pressures in injectors will work (as long as nozzles are running correctly) This goes against conventional thinking but so did Darwin... This might explain why Lucas pumps can achieve 85+mpg imp on a run whilst injectors only operate at 120 to 130bar.

We can all learn more even when we are as experienced as you obviously are. Shame you haven't posted more  than your 5 sessions or we'd all be up to scratch on your hidden talents.
Having said that you won't be touching one of my pumps as you appear to be well rehearsed in throwing serviceable pumps away. Is your work commission based?... Oops a little low that blow...
 Anyhow keep posting so that the non mechanics here can be helped :o)
Mark-The-Miser-UK

"There's nothing like driving past a bonfire and then realising; its my car on fire!"

I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee: drive a Quantum TD
 ...The best work-horse after the cart...

Reply #6April 21, 2007, 10:54:52 pm

jtanguay

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2007, 10:54:52 pm »
when Andrew is right...  :wink:  :lol:

just out of curiosity, what is the internal working pressure of the pump??? i've got one of those solid state pumps with around 4.7 psi.  if the actual regulator inside the pump is the problem, then wouldn't the extra lift be pointless since the extra pressure will simply be bled off?  or is that how it works?

thanks!


This is how we deal with porn spammers! You've been warned.

Reply #7April 22, 2007, 12:10:38 am

TDTech

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2007, 12:10:38 am »
As I said before... the regulator is at a FIXED pressure.  Of course if you destroy the regulator, then yes you can change just about anything.  I still stand on what I said before...  the VE pump is designed to run at a certain internal pressure at any given speed.  At the beginning of that "how to" it specifically says "Pressure in pump MUST be 43.5 Psi at 1000 RPM engine"  which is correct. That's 500 pump RPMs as stated in the calibration manual.  The one thing you really don't want to mess with is the internal pressures.  it causes premature failure of the seals.

Quote
You take a small punch and tap the center of the regulator in slightly to increase internal pressure. Do so in very small increments while measuring the internal pressure.


Wow, such an accurate way to change a critical setting!  Yes, it works for a while...  until the pump blows a seal.  How can you expect something you've damaged to work reliably?  Ever think that when you tap in that regulator, you're changing the shape of the piston as well?  so now it's going to get stuck sooner or later, what happens then?  new seals.  why take all that risk?

The spring mod uses VW parts...  VW parts that have been installed in other VW's... undamaged.  Removing the thicker shim only provides for less spring preload so advance happens a little earlier.  The lighter spring was used in the Vanagon as a stock part...  so how will the timing be over advanced?  I've done literally hundreds of pumps and most are using the green spring with thin shims....  and are still running.  Like I said, you can do the mod, or not do the mod...  or go ahead and change something Bosch says is a critical setting... it's your time and money to replace the pump.  As for this forum...  I'm finished here.  feel free to destroy your pumps at will...  I was giving you a safe alternative.
Sure, you can borrow my tools... but the mechanic comes with them.

Reply #8April 22, 2007, 01:53:52 am

Vincent Waldon

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2007, 01:53:52 am »
Hey gents... deep breath time... *no one* has a monopoly on the truth !!!  We'll all bending these machines much farther than F. Porsche, R. Diesel,  and R. Bosch ever intended... and there are always many many ways to peel an onion.

I've learned tons here by listening to everyone's particular point of view, and like everything else on the Internet we all have to decide if what we're reading makes sense for us.  There's a ton of practical experience behind the notion of changing the internal pressure, and it also sounds like there's a ton of practical experience behind using stock VW shims and springs to change the advance curve... cool stuff,  and not mutually exclusive.

What brings this gang together is a love of wrenching on these beasts and taking them as far as we can... let's keep chatting !!


Vince
Vince

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3, 1970 Bay Window bus

Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta

Reply #9April 22, 2007, 08:02:58 am

Mark(The Miser)UK

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2007, 08:02:58 am »
Alas he obviously had hands on experience...
But his words of the apocalypse commeth for all alternative ideas to his own was a no-no  :roll: Smells commission based...

To hijack this thread that is now vacant :shock: ...

Why can't I use vaccuum from the exhauster to run a Cruise Control system? :?:
Mark-The-Miser-UK

"There's nothing like driving past a bonfire and then realising; its my car on fire!"

I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee: drive a Quantum TD
 ...The best work-horse after the cart...

Reply #10April 22, 2007, 09:06:45 am

jimfoo

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2007, 09:06:45 am »
Now, I know little about the pumps, but could the dynamic timing setting from the factory also be emissions influenced rather than performance  driven, hence there being some merit to what he said?  He still comes across like a knob though. We had a similar guy on a Land Rover forum who knew EVERYTHING better than anyone else. He got pissed off and left pretty quick too. "King Landy", "TD Tech", guess you have to expect it with names like those. :roll:
Jim
1966 Land-Rover 88" with 1.9 1Z which has been transformed to an M-TDI
TFO35 mechanically controlled VNT, IC , and 2.5" exhaust.
Driven daily

Reply #11April 22, 2007, 11:27:36 am

Tintin

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1.6L Timing advance curve mod...
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2007, 11:27:36 am »
Here the original  ''BOSCH'' tool to adjust  pressure regulator:

   

And here the description of the BOSCH ESITRONIC software:



The majority of the IDI pump, the pressure are 0 - 100psi, and for a specific DI pump, the pressure can go up until 160psi, and no seal leak.

To adjust the timing curve, it's more easy with the regulator, and it is conceived has this end.

And for the regulator them even, there exist with different pressure curved, (different hardness from spring, different size of bleed port and 2 or 4 bleed port)

Reply #12April 22, 2007, 11:54:53 am

Tintin

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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2007, 11:54:53 am »
It is not because a guy changed only kit of seal on hundred pumps which it know all the real operation of these pumps  :lol:

I have a friend who has worked in a shop of refection of pump for several years and it is not able to built a M-TDI pumps  :lol:

Reply #13April 22, 2007, 12:02:14 pm

Tintin

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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2007, 12:02:14 pm »
TDTech, it is not your knowledge which is in question, it is rather your attitude opposite this.

If I were done has your first lines, you will learn some here than than you learned on this subject lasting 10years.

A forum it is not a place to claim itself to have infused science, one is here to discuss and exchange our experiment.

Reply #14April 22, 2007, 03:23:26 pm

Mark(The Miser)UK

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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2007, 03:23:26 pm »
Quote from: libbybapa
Hey Limey, What's the "exhauster"?  Is it a part near the bonnet or the boot?   :lol:

Andrew
[/size]

Hey pump killer ...
It's under the hood :wink:

 Funny its called the brake servo vacuum pump in the Haynes and Exhauster in another book that I was perusing; so thats why no-one was willing to do more than view :shock:
Mark-The-Miser-UK

"There's nothing like driving past a bonfire and then realising; its my car on fire!"

I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee: drive a Quantum TD
 ...The best work-horse after the cart...