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Author Topic: Please help me decide (TD into 73 bus)  (Read 34195 times)

March 07, 2006, 10:37:30 pm

speedy

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Please help me decide (TD into 73 bus)
« on: March 07, 2006, 10:37:30 pm »
I am trying to decide on a 1.6T vs. 1.9NA.  I'm hoping someone here can offer me some advice.  It's for a VW van, so it will be pushing around some weight.  It is also a manual shift so I am concerned about turbo lag.  I have more-or-less decided on the 1.6 turbo, but I have to know how bad the lag will be before I go ahead with it.  

My Mercedes 2.5T has pretty serious turbo lag - with the automatic tranny it's not too annoying because I can simply keep my foot in it through the shifts.  With a manual, I think it might get annoying.  I've driven a friend's SVO Mustang and it is a bear to drive around town.  Nothing until the turbo spools up, then it knocks your drink out of the cupholder and you have to shift very quickly to keep the boost up.  I'm not interested in shifting quickly in my van.

I have also obtained an intercooler from a Thunderbird turbocoupe - will this work well on the 1.6T?  It will not be in front of the vehicle so I will have to move air through it via a small but powerful fan.  I'm hoping that will work.  

This site: http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/VW/VW_enginechange.html says that I can gain 22hp and 27lb/ft by adding the intercooler... is this really true?  That is a huge percentage gain.  If true it will be hard to argue against the 1.6T.

The 1.9NA makes nearly the same hp and torque as the 1.6T.  The 1.9 costs more, is harder to find parts for (presumably) but is less complex (and therefore more reliable) and will not suffer from turbo lag.    Did I mention I hate turbo lag?  If I go with the 1.6T is there any way to reduce the lag?

I am getting ready to spend nearly $2000 for a used turbo 1.6 engine from Europe (supposedly ~40K miles).  If I am about to make a mistake, please tell me!  All advice welcomed/appreciated.

Thanks,

-David



Reply #1March 07, 2006, 11:32:10 pm

speedy

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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2006, 11:32:10 pm »
Quote from: "libbybapa"
Go turbo for sure.  Even if you go 1.9, go turbo.

There is significant turbo lag.  Far, far more noticable in the larger vehicle than in a golf/jetta/quantum.  If you use a 1.6TD then use the K14 from an ECOdiesel (91-92) or from a 1.9AAZ.  My TD camper has been OOC for a while with tranny trouble.  When I finally get a round tuit and get the van up and running again, I will be retrofitting a VNT-15 from a TDI for instant boost and lots of it.
I have the 5-speed tranny.  1st and 2nd are slow.  3rd and up, you are in boost instantly.  I enjoy the manual, but look forward to the VNT.


Hmmm... I will have to read up on the VNT turbos.  I take it the swap is not straightforward.  My van is strictly a Fahrvergnugen vehicle - I drive it for pleasure only and anything that detracts from the pleasure (like turbo lag) is a disadvantage.  Of course it's sure to be offset by the smile on my face when the boost eventually gets there, and just being able to say I have a turbo-bus.  I will have to stew over this some more.

There is an Eco-diesel on E-bay right now, but I'm sure it will sell for lots more than I can afford... and I could never steal the motor from such a nice car.

Quote from: "libbybapa"

I used a SAAB 900 (notice only 2 zero's) in the driver's side taillight area and added an air scoop on the side of the van there a la Mad Max.

That's cool but I'm into the sleeper look - I want it to appear stock.

Quote from: "libbybapa"

The intercooler dropped max EGT's by 150 deg.  And then I brought them right back up by increasing the fueling.  If you simply add an intercooler without increasing the fueling you will not see any hp gain, but it would be better for your motor.

Even with a low mileage motor, I would pull the head and inspect it.  That would give you a chance to spend a bit more money on a 1.9 metal headgasket, total seal rings and raceware studs.

Andrew

Roger.  I had almost forgotten about the EGT gauge - I will have to get one of those too.  Are the rings and studs really necessary?  I wasn't planning on running it that hard.

Thanks for the reply,

-David

Reply #2March 08, 2006, 08:46:25 pm

speedy

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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2006, 08:46:25 pm »
Quote from: "libbybapa"
How are you going to run the cooling system on a bus with a stock appearance?  
Andrew


I am planning on putting one or two small radiators on the left (and right) side of the engine below the scoops, at an angle.  I will shroud them and use strong electric fan(s) to get the airflow I need.  If that experiment fails, I will get one of the rads that goes on the front of the bus that is disguised as a spare tire.

-David

Reply #3August 23, 2006, 12:56:34 am

speedy

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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2006, 12:56:34 am »
Just wanted to post an update.  I bought a POS 85 (or is it 84?) Quantum last week with a good TD engine in it, so it looks like I am going TD for sure.  

After driving it around the block a few times, I was pleasantly suprised at how much torque it had right off idle and how mild the turbo lag was.  I can detect the lag, but it's more like a gentle buildup of power as the revs increase rather than "nothing" under 2500rpm followed by a strong surge in power.  The character of it is more akin to a small variable-valve-timing gas engine, with the rpm scaled down of course.  Not unpleasant to drive at all.  The tach isn't working but the engine seems to run out of steam a little early, maybe 4000rpm.  Is this normal?

I am in the process of cleaning the engine, replacing the timing belt, cleaning the garage and prepping the bus for major surgery.  That alone will likely take me a couple of months, but I am determined to keep it moving.

Can someone tell me where to measure boost on this engine?  There is one vacuum line connected to the turbo but it never seems to get boost or vacuum.  There is vacuum at the vacuum pump though.  How is the boost regulated?  By the slotted set screw on the side of the turbo?  How much boost is normal for this engine, and can it be increased at all on a stock engine?  I have searched online for the answers to these questions, but I haven't had any luck thus far.

Finally, if anyone needs any parts from the Quantum, let me know and I'll try to help.  Any parts except the engine, that is.  :-)

-David

Reply #4August 23, 2006, 11:38:52 pm

speedy

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2006, 11:38:52 pm »
Quote from: libbybapa
There should be a small line between the intake manifold snout and the injection pump.  


Duh - I should have realized that.  Sorry for the newbie question.  I hooked up the gauge and took another spin.  The gauge shows around 9psi when floored and over 2500rpm.  Sometimes only 8-8.5psi.  Hard to tell exactly because the needle is bouncing around a little bit.  Floored it in 5th at 35mph and saw about 3psi before I ran out of road.  Definitely does not make the boost at lower RPMs.

Should I adjust the set screw for 10psi?

Thanks,
   -David

Reply #5September 07, 2006, 09:56:56 pm

speedy

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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2006, 09:56:56 pm »
I tried to adjust the set screw to bring the boost up to 10psi.  The screw was very difficult to turn and I succeeded in snapping off the end of it with my screwdriver.  Oh well, guess it will be 9psi for the time being.

I got the garage cleaned up and the bus pulled in.  I started stripping the old bus motor today.  Got the exhaust removed, rear tin, alternator, A/C compressor, bracketry, air cleaner, engine seal, battery, etc..  Lots more to do.  Ten years and 115,000 miles since the rebuild and boy does it show.  I will be so glad to get rid of this engine.  I am trying to buy a gas tank from a fuel-injected bus which has a return line, rather than use my stock tank which does not have a return line.  If I use my stock tank I will have to use one of the vents as a return line and I'd rather not do that.

I was thinking about the oil return line too.  I noticed yours (Andrew) is on the drivers side with your factory turbo pan.  I was a little concerned at how low in the pan it was (thinking that it would be below oil-level) but I guess if it was good enough for VW it should be good enough for me.  I'm going to try and find a shop that can weld in some kind of bung or fitting in the same location on my pan - I'm expecting this to be difficult but it has to be done.  If it's too difficult to add the fitting I will try and get a factory TD pan from Europe.  I will be using braided stainless hose and AN fittings as I have had good luck with them on my open track car.

-David

Reply #6September 09, 2006, 12:59:28 am

speedy

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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2006, 12:59:28 am »
I wonder how he keeps that oil return port from leaking?

I agree with your assessment of the oil return level.  I will take another look when the engine is out - maybe it can go on the end of the pan (rear of bus) near the top.  Might not have adequate vertical drop though.

I just measured the vanagon diesel bellhousing, it's 5-5/8" thick.  Old one is only 4-3/4" thick.  Uh oh... maybe there was something to that rumor that I need a different input shaft.  I remember the 091 (late aircooled) bellhousing being 1/2" thicker than my 002 bellhousing, or only 3/8" thinner than the vanagon bellhousing.  I bet that difference would be in the noise - maybe upgrading my transaxle to an 091 would solve the input shaft problem.  I guess I'm getting off topic - sorry...

-David

Reply #7September 09, 2006, 08:26:58 am

speedy

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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2006, 08:26:58 am »
73

Reply #8September 09, 2006, 04:50:20 pm

speedy

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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2006, 04:50:20 pm »
Andrew,

I am keeping all possibilities open at this point.  However, I don't think I want to do the 15-degree install - not because of clearance at the top of the engine compartment but because of ground clearance beneath the engine.  I do not want the oil pan hanging down in the back of the bus, visible from the rear and in the path of whatever I drive over.  I will measure to be sure, and if the difference is small (1-2 inches or less) I might end up keeping the upright configuration.  KEP does make a conversion plate for the 15-degree install.  It would be nice to not have to mess with the wastegate interference/oil drainage problem.

I went to the swap meet this morning and picked up a radiator that I think will be perfect.  The guy said it was from a scirocco.  It's solid brass/copper with no built-in radiator cap (good because I have to put in an external one anyway).  It's 23"x13" which is pretty much the EXACT size I was looking for.  If I just trim/bend the brackets slightly it will stand straight up and require only a small amount of weatherstripping to seal it against the side of the engine compartment.    Here is approximately where it will be positioned:




Too perfect for words!

-David

Reply #9September 10, 2006, 12:08:52 am

speedy

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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2006, 12:08:52 am »
Yeah, dual Solexes.  :oops: Started with them in '88, tried dual 40 Dells for a while, then went back to the Solexes.  I probably have the biggest Solex parts collection in the USA.  I hated them at first like everyone else, but grew to appreciate them after driving ~120,000 miles with them.  Had a few problems but they never left me stranded which is more than I can say for some other carbs.

An engine side starter would be nice since the Vanagon bellhousing precludes the use of the tranny hanger bracket (or at least I think it does, without serious modification).  I feel safer with more mounting points.  But, like you say I doubt the KEP adapter handles that.  In fact I'm sure it doesn't.  All their adapter is is a 5/8" slab of aluminum with some holes drilled in it.  :wink:

Guess I am going to have to hurry up and pull the TD motor.  Too many questions will be unanswered until I do it.  

-David

Reply #10September 16, 2006, 11:16:45 pm

speedy

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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2006, 11:16:45 pm »
Got the old 2-liter air-cooled motor out of the bus - it's probably the oiliest engine I have ever worked on, which is embarassing but jeez, trying to stop oil leaks on that engine is like swimming up a waterfall.  I will be glad to be done with that.

Got out the tape measure - there is about 24" between the rear edge of the bellhousing and the rear of the engine compartment.  I measured the length of the Quantum TD engine and it is only about 19" from the back of the block to the outer edge of the crank pulley.  This is great news - I am going to have 5" or more of space at the rear of the engine which will make it very easy to work on.

More pontificating.  The Vanagon diesel bellhousing just isn't going to work.  I need five inches of clearance above the top of the transaxle for the top-mounted starter and there ain't anywhere near that much.  I would have to cut far into the frame member that supports the bellhousing AND lower the entire motor/tranny assembly another inch or two for it to fit.  I don't want to do that.  In addition, the vanagon bellhousing HAS NO provisions for mounting so I would have to fab up something custom.  I thought about just not having any support at the bellhousing (relying on just the engine mounts and front tranny mount for everything) but I don't think that's enough.  The front tranny mount is not as beefy as the one on the Vanagon and I don't trust it to hold that much weight.

Fortunately there is KEP.  I called and Mr. Kennedy himself answered the phone.  Real nice guy and knows his stuff.  I am going to order the conversion kit with the 228mm flywheel.  This will require me to buy a new starter and clutch kit but it will solve the bellhousing mount and starter problem (it uses the stock bellhousing and starter location).  It also solves my clutch cable problem and I will get a stronger clutch.  The KEP adapter plate is drilled for three orientations which will give me some flexibility, though I am pretty much sold on the 50-degree orientation.  I have found an 091 bellhousing (more-or-less required for the 228mm clutch) so I am on my way.  With luck I should have all of the pieces by late next week.  

Andrew, I think you may be on to something with the Quantum engine mounts.  The stock "moustache bar" engine carrier looks like it can easily be redrilled and moved forward as far as I like.  Hopefully it won't be too difficult to adapt the Quantum mounts to the bar.  If I do that, I will be reselling almost everything I bought in that conversion kit!  Only things I'll be using are the 50-degree oil pan, oil filler tube and oil pickup.  I won't need the Vanagon diesel bellhousing, flywheel and engine mounting bars.  Oh well, if it works it will be worth it.

Kennedy has thought about the transaxle input shaft length issue.  He said the bus input shaft will actually bottom out in the rabbit engine and that they include instructions for cutting off about 3/4" of the bus input shaft to make it work.  I'm not scared of this because I have an angle grinder and an extra 002 input shaft in my parts collection.  Booyah!

I also have an FI gas tank lined up (has a return line, my '73 tank does not).  I will get that in two weeks and swap it out.  In the meantime I will be cleaning up the engine compartment and replacing gaskets/timing belt on the 1.6TD engine.

The Scirocco radiator is at the shop being gone over - I pick it up on Monday.  Still need a kick-ass fan for it, such as a Black Magic or similar.  No fans with 18-gauge wiring need apply.  I will check out the stock Scirocco fans too, maybe they will be good enough.

I found a guy who can weld aluminum - he says he welds on oil pans for bigrig trucks all the time and can weld a fitting into my pan no problem as long as the fitting is aluminum of course.  I think I'm going to buy a male AN-8 fitting and have him weld it into the pan.  Anyone see a reason why this wouldn't work?

-David

Reply #11September 17, 2006, 12:19:40 am

RabbitJockey

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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2006, 12:19:40 am »
you should make up a heat shield so that the radiator heat doesn't get into the engine bay, have the heatshield so there is an intake and exhaust you know, that'd be cool
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Reply #12September 17, 2006, 09:08:43 am

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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2006, 09:08:43 am »
ya know...alot of mustang guys have been picking up ford taurus fans at the j/y and using them. The pull a bunch of air, are cheap , real narrow to solve fitment problems and because they were put into a Taurus they will NEVER run out at the j/y. Now they are about 18" tall so Im wondering is a Tempo or Escort fan might be a better size. Like the Taurus they are a main stay of the auto recycling industrty.

And if one goes bad...go back and buy another for 5 bucks. Ive seen more then a few black magic fans replaced with one of these when the B/M takes a vacation.
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Reply #13September 17, 2006, 12:14:28 pm

speedy

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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2006, 12:14:28 pm »
Quote from: Trev0rbr
you should make up a heat shield so that the radiator heat doesn't get into the engine bay, have the heatshield so there is an intake and exhaust you know, that'd be cool


Yeah, that would be cool - literally!  Once the engine is in I will look for an obvious place to duct the air out, but if there isn't one I will probably just let the hot air go through the engine compartment.  My reasoning was that that's how most water-cooled cars work - the radiator exhaust blows directly back onto the engine.

Reply #14September 17, 2006, 12:30:16 pm

speedy

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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2006, 12:30:16 pm »
Quote from: Kudagra
ya know...alot of mustang guys have been picking up ford taurus fans at the j/y and using them. The pull a bunch of air, are cheap , real narrow to solve fitment problems and because they were put into a Taurus they will NEVER run out at the j/y. Now they are about 18" tall so Im wondering is a Tempo or Escort fan might be a better size. Like the Taurus they are a main stay of the auto recycling industrty.

And if one goes bad...go back and buy another for 5 bucks. Ive seen more then a few black magic fans replaced with one of these when the B/M takes a vacation.


Funny you should mention that - I'm a Mustang guy also.  Most of my friends and I have used the Lincoln Mark-VIII fan in our cars with good results.  It pulls something like 2700CFM, draws 21 amps continuously and ~80 amps at startup.  Requires an alternator upgrade.   :shock:   The main problem with that and the Taurus fans is that they are way too tall.  The Scirocco rad is only 13" tall which really limits my fan selection.  I did find this online though:

http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/scirocco-fan.html

Doesn't say how much it costs, I'm guessing at least $200.  Probably better than the stock Scirocco fans though.  I mentioned the Black Magic because I think it's 14" tall, which is in the ballpark, but again it's pricey and I can appreciate your point about cheap and easy-to-find parts.

The first thing I will try is to adapt the fans from the Quantum, since I already have them.  It's a dual fan assembly that looks to be about the right height, but is too wide.  I will try cutting/narrowing the shroud to make it fit.  It would be nice if that worked because the Quantum has a 2-stage temp sensor that will bolt right into the Scirocco radiator and control the two fans at different temps.  

-David