S-PAutomotive.com

Author Topic: G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2  (Read 108722 times)

November 04, 2005, 02:33:26 am

malone

  • Administrator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1156
    • Malone Tuning Ltd.
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« on: November 04, 2005, 02:33:26 am »
It's been a while since I first Gteched my 1.6TD! Here's the original dyno of the bone stock 1.6TD (factory rated 69HP) from mid April of this year:

Stock 1.6TD


If you are unfamiliar with Gtech you can learn more about it at http://www.gtechpro.com. Gtech HP and TQ values are normally lower than values from a common vehicle dynamometer because the car experiences aerodynamic resistance and other resistances when it is actually moving on the road (with GTech in operation), unlike on a stationary dyno.

For reference, a stock MK3 VR6 that is factory rated at 172HP and usually reads 155 wheel HP on a dyno, averaged 132 net HP according to my Gtech.

My MK3 1997 Golf used to have a 1.8L 8v gasoline engine that's factory rated at 90HP. Its power/tq is shown in black. The red line is my current 1.6TD in the same car with the LDA device (boost pin) inactive. I was just curious to see how the 1.6TD's powerband compares without the LDA. Both 3rd gear pulls, with the exact same transmission.
1.8L 8v gas vs. 1.6TD in same chassis


For some reason my old 1.8L 8v felt a bit underpowered. My friend's identical MK3 Golf CL 1.8L 8v feels a bit stronger and reported approximately 71HP on my Gtech. Anyway, the 1.6TD feels very nice for daily driving without the LDA - excellent "off boost" or eco-diesel style performance. More enjoyable than the 1.8L.

Driving with the LDA functional is a whole different story though :)

Here's a 1990 MK2 Jetta 2.0L 16v (factory rated 134hp) with a Neuspeed 91 octane chip and 2 1/2" crush bend exhaust. I think the shakiness is caused by his extremely stiff suspension, but all of his Gtech runs were very consistent:
MK2 2.0L 16v gas


His 16v feels very strong and I was rather surprised at his 96 net HP result, but his vehicle weight was correct (weighed at a truck scale) and results were still consistent.

It was pouring rain non-stop in the last week so I had traction difficulties during high RPM while Gteching my 1.6TD recently, but here's the result anyway. The LDA is connected. It's compared against the same 2.0L 16v (green).
2.0L 16v vs. 1.6TD


At 4,000 RPM in 3rd gear the wheels just let go. The redline is 6,500 but since the wheelspin occured I had to let off. When the road condition gets better I'll do a complete run.

I could not find the VR6 GTech plots but a friend is coming over here in 2 to 3 weeks from Vancouver island with his MK3 VR6 so we'll take more GTech plots in his car and compare it against my 1.6TD.

The air/water intercooler is still not functional (although EGTs were still within safe limits) and there was zero smoke during the acceleration. I can't even get it to smoke much above 1,800 RPM - it's seriously underfueled. Mayday Giles; this pump isn't providing enough fuel!! :D

The current turbo is a GT20 that spools quicker than a stock 1.6 turbo, thanks to the overall fueling and airflow improvement since the 1.6 engine rebuild. There's much more potential to come with intercooling, extra fueling, a better turbo, etc. :) The car really moves.. the low RPM torque is plentiful for daily driving and I seem to be benefiting well from the 1.6's rev capability; the power really picks up as the RPM climbs!

*edit: I combined the existing 1.6TD plots for a nice comparison. The power differences are pleasant :):
Stock 1.6TD (black) vs. Current 1.6TD (red)


http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #1November 04, 2005, 04:05:02 am

935racer

  • Guest
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2005, 04:05:02 am »
Its gonna be a monster!

Reply #2November 04, 2005, 09:33:50 am

Cheesetoast

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 285
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2005, 09:33:50 am »
sweet, now come hook me up with the gtd nozzles buddy, i dont' get enough wheelspin in 3rd

Reply #3November 04, 2005, 11:35:24 am

malone

  • Administrator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1156
    • Malone Tuning Ltd.
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2005, 11:35:24 am »
Quote from: "Cheesetoast"
sweet, now come hook me up with the gtd nozzles buddy, i dont' get enough wheelspin in 3rd


I have a fresh set of GTD nozzles here :)

It'd be best to wait until I get a pop-tester so we can test and balance injectors with GTD nozzles prior to installing them.

Passenger may have a pop-tester before me though - whoever has the pop-tester, we'll go for the swap.

They might have a T3 or K24 turbo laying around too... you really could use the extra flow.  :)
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #4November 04, 2005, 11:43:32 am

malone

  • Administrator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1156
    • Malone Tuning Ltd.
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2005, 11:43:32 am »
The 1.6TD will be dynoed at Kinetic Motorsport which I believe has a Dyno Dynamics unit. That way we'll all see more credible WHP and WTQ figures. It might be 1 to 2 weeks from now as the vehicle still needs tuning.

Below 2,000 RPM there's white smoke with blue tint. Shudders under acceleration as well. Starts up in cold no problem, but idles rough until warmed up. It's been this way since the engine started the first time after rebuild. I initially thought it needed a little break-in / piston ring seating, but it's not it.

After approx. 2,000 RPM the engine runs fabulously, zero smoke. Blue smoke is still there @ idle even when the engine's warmed up. Puffs fairly big when I start in 1st gear. But after approx. 2,000 RPM it's not a problem.

I assumed that the fuel pump timing was retarded. However, we've set the pump timing from 0.92 to 0.97 many times (Gile's recommendation is 0.90 to 0.95) with no positive results. Setting the timing on other diesels wasn't a problem. Brand new OEM injectors was swapped in as well (I just had an extra set laying around), with no changes.

I believe the cylinder compression may still be low, we haven't done a second compression test yet because we wanted to wait a few more thousand kms.. but we might do it soon just to check. I still have the thickest 3-hole 1.9TD headgasket.

Lower compression = longer for cylinder to generate heat = timing retarded. Is my assumption correct? How much can compression affect fuel timing?

Any suggestions? I'll report back with compression #s and other info.
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #5November 04, 2005, 12:05:07 pm

DutchTouch

  • Newbie

  • Offline
  • *

  • 17
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2005, 12:05:07 pm »
Malone,

My friend lent me his Gtech last July... not the Pro model. I had just put in a set of 205 nozzles in my 96 Passat TDI.   I did some runs in worst case scenario, July summer temps mid 90's, humidity 55%, GVW 3080 lbs on truck scale plus my 225 pounds I'm 6'6" tall.

Gtech gave me numbers of 96, 96, 92, 94, 97 hp.

Later on at night after things cooled down, I saw 97,100,99 for 3 runs.

Based on your experience with nozzles and chipping, as well as other losses experienced with Gtech, what would you estimate my crank HP at from a dyno? And possible torque figures?  I really just need a ballpark set of numbers.  Obviously these numbers are nothing to brag about, just for personal knowledge.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but your knowledge seems extensive with both IDI's and TDI's, I'm fascinated with what you can do with an old 1.6 TD on the street.

Reply #6November 04, 2005, 12:20:19 pm

935racer

  • Guest
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2005, 12:20:19 pm »
Cheasetoast, we can pop test some injectors for you and maybe install a t3/t4 turbo :twisted:

Malone, compression does not affect fuel timing. I think there is an issue with the pump, I have tried timing all the way from .87 to 1.1 with no luck in getting rid of that smoke. The biggest problem is just off idle is starts missing, thats the shudder you are refferring to is because just off idle one of the cylinders is not firing. Seeing how it idles fine and throughotu the rest of the rev range there is no missing I think it is pump related.
Changing the headgasket to thiner one is not going to make a drastic enough change in compression to notice. I guess I'll have to do the math to show. The low compression is from running a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block, more valve surface area and bigger pre chambers and deck modifications. The deck modifications are what help the head flow so much but yes it lowers the compression. Your low compression isn't bad though, it starts instantly in the cold and idles. Those are your biggest concerns with lower compression diesel engines. IDI diesels always idle rough when they are stone cold and started up so don't worry :wink:

Reply #7November 04, 2005, 01:17:29 pm

Audi80

  • Guest
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2005, 01:17:29 pm »
Looking great Malone! Canīt wait the dyno results :D

Quote from: "935racer"

 The deck modifications are what help the head flow so much but yes it lowers the compression.


Have I missed something? What is that deck mod?

Reply #8November 04, 2005, 01:24:18 pm

malone

  • Administrator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1156
    • Malone Tuning Ltd.
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2005, 01:24:18 pm »
Quote from: "DutchTouch"
Malone,

My friend lent me his Gtech last July... not the Pro model. I had just put in a set of 205 nozzles in my 96 Passat TDI.   I did some runs in worst case scenario, July summer temps mid 90's, humidity 55%, GVW 3080 lbs on truck scale plus my 225 pounds I'm 6'6" tall.

Gtech gave me numbers of 96, 96, 92, 94, 97 hp.

Later on at night after things cooled down, I saw 97,100,99 for 3 runs.

Based on your experience with nozzles and chipping, as well as other losses experienced with Gtech, what would you estimate my crank HP at from a dyno? And possible torque figures?  I really just need a ballpark set of numbers.  Obviously these numbers are nothing to brag about, just for personal knowledge.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but your knowledge seems extensive with both IDI's and TDI's, I'm fascinated with what you can do with an old 1.6 TD on the street.


What GTech model was it? I can't recall a Gtech without "Pro". Here's the product lineup:
http://www.gtechpro.com/prod.html

The Competition Pro (MY 2001) and newer Gteches are more accurate because of RPM calibration, accelerometer calibration, and they show both HP and TQ curves instead of just peak HP numbers. I believe Jake (fpsGTD) has the Competition Pro. I have the Gtech Pro RR. I probably should have gotten the Competition as it's a more economicial choice and seems to work fine.

Gtech Pro SS may not let you upload plots to a computer. FYI to those who read this and is thinking of getting a Gtech.

If talking about a dyno, wheel HP is usually referred to, not crank HP. Crank or brake HP is measured at the engine flywheel. I think vehicle automakers like to tout crank HP numbers instead of the more practical wheel HP numbers because crank HP numbers are higher, which looks better on paper.

Perhaps wheel HP always being inconsistent across different dynos is the reason for using crank HP from the factory. Although the big automakers already have top quality dynos that are accurate but $$$$ to calibrate, not all automakers have them.

Your numbers (avg. ~96 net HP) are very nice with just a 0.205 nozzle upgrade. I have not Gteched an early Passat TDI (just the later TDIs and a couple MK3 Jetta TDIs) but the stock Gtech numbers w/ proper calibration in your car would average 80 net HP.

Gtech is most useful for comparing before/after modifications. Keep your Gtech results in mind, and next time if you get a chip or other mods, you can do another Gtech run with the SAME CALIBRATION to see the actual improvement.

*edit: I estimate your current wheel HP to be 105-115.

Cheers,
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #9November 04, 2005, 01:30:31 pm

fspGTD

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1529
    • http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2005, 01:30:31 pm »
130 g-tech net hp, and sounds like you still have a few more tricks.  Very nice Malone! :)  Keep us updated on the smoky idle / clattery start issue.
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #10November 04, 2005, 01:33:52 pm

malone

  • Administrator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1156
    • Malone Tuning Ltd.
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2005, 01:33:52 pm »
Quote from: "935racer"
Malone, compression does not affect fuel timing. I think there is an issue with the pump, I have tried timing all the way from .87 to 1.1 with no luck in getting rid of that smoke. The biggest problem is just off idle is starts missing, thats the shudder you are refferring to is because just off idle one of the cylinders is not firing. Seeing how it idles fine and throughotu the rest of the rev range there is no missing I think it is pump related.
Changing the headgasket to thiner one is not going to make a drastic enough change in compression to notice. I guess I'll have to do the math to show. The low compression is from running a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block, more valve surface area and bigger pre chambers and deck modifications. The deck modifications are what help the head flow so much but yes it lowers the compression. Your low compression isn't bad though, it starts instantly in the cold and idles. Those are your biggest concerns with lower compression diesel engines. IDI diesels always idle rough when they are stone cold and started up so don't worry :wink:


I was amazed at how small the 1.6TD pre-cup is compared to the NA 1.6 and 1.9TD pre-cups, so I can see the 1.9 pre-cup contributing to the lower compression. Tonight I will find my camera and post the close-up pictures.

Ok.. looks like a fuel pump swap may be in order, I need to send the modded pump to Giles for tweaking (more fuel) anyways :)
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #11November 04, 2005, 01:35:17 pm

malone

  • Administrator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1156
    • Malone Tuning Ltd.
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2005, 01:35:17 pm »
Quote from: "fspGTD"
130 g-tech net hp, and sounds like you still have a few more tricks.  Very nice Malone! :)  Keep us updated on the smoky idle / clattery start issue.


Thanks for the comment :) Will post updates on the smoky idle issue.
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #12November 04, 2005, 02:07:11 pm

935racer

  • Guest
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2005, 02:07:11 pm »
Audi80, I modfied the deck of the head to flow more air :twisted:  Still kind of a secrect for right now...

Reply #13November 04, 2005, 02:08:08 pm

935racer

  • Guest
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2005, 02:08:08 pm »
Mark we need to get giles to give us way more fuel anyways :twisted: to compensate for all that airflow.

Reply #14November 04, 2005, 02:20:31 pm

Audi80

  • Guest
G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2005, 02:20:31 pm »
Quote from: "935racer"
Audi80, I modfied the deck of the head to flow more air :twisted:  Still kind of a secrect for right now...


Damned you guys :evil: secrets :lol: I did a little mod too, but I donīt know if  it was any good for power :roll: Did it just becouse my machinist told me to do.
I was wondering if your mod was something similar.