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Author Topic: 1.6 NA diesel pump leak  (Read 11942 times)

Reply #15February 05, 2009, 02:01:45 pm

dieselwagen

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1.6 NA diesel pump leak
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 02:01:45 pm »
Quote from: "burn_your_money"
I'd try the ATF trick first. It's the fastest, easiest and cheapest. A rare combo.


i soaked my leaky IP with ATF last friday night with a brake bleeder kit hooked-up to the banjo bolt return line til red juice started coming out.
left it for 2 days, then drove it monday and no more leak so far.

it makes sense to just do the complete re-seal at one shot, changing seal one at a time is almost like dealing with a "comeback". it just involves more work in the end.

last sunday, someone locally traded me a bosch ve pump for my cherry picker. i'm so stoked that i can now practice on a spare.
if i figure this out before anyone comes up with an offer i can't refuse, i may not even sell my '86 vw at all.
[/quote]
1986 golf 1.6

Reply #16February 05, 2009, 02:18:44 pm

jtanguay

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Re: Pump leak
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 02:18:44 pm »
Quote from: "scj3230"
I am having the same problem too.  My pump is leaking from the back somewhere.  When I go to start it in the morning there is a small space on my driveway where it has been leaking fuel.  I am not sure if its because of the cold weather that makes the seals shrink or if I just have bad seals and am delaying the inevitable.  If I am delaying the inevitable, are things only going to get worse?  I haven't noticed any performance decreases and I still get good mileage.  I might as well wait as long as I can and then send my pump to Giles up in Canada and really get my money's worth!  Maybe if someone could show me where Andrew [libbybapa]'s page is on how to do the in-car replacement of the o-ring it would help out a lot.  Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated as no one in Utah will touch my old diesel!


if you do decide to change any seals in car, beforehand you should take the car to a car wash and power spray the areas of the pump affected.  maybe even bring a wire brush to get the tough grime off.  as Tyler says, any dirt in the pump could be disastrous.  

i am a bit partial to libbybapa's head o-ring replacement method, as any backyard mechanic could do it (while taking great care in cleanliness, and not letting any of the pieces fall out as Tyler mentioned) his method involves unbolting the head and slightly disengaging it from the pump housing, cutting off the old o-ring, and then stretching the new o-ring over the pump head and into position.  this is where cleanliness plays a big role.  dirt could potentially fall into the o-ring groove upon disassembly and give you more grief.  or the o-ring could catch some dirt from the pump head and introduce it into the mating surface while you stretch it on.  high attention to detail, and proper cleaning are the key to success.

i just did a search, and can't find the post about the o-ring replacement.  maybe libbybapa will chime in? or you can send him a PM.


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Reply #17February 05, 2009, 02:19:57 pm

scj3230

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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 02:19:57 pm »
How does the ATF trick work?

I need to change out my fuel filter, should I just dump some tranny fluid in the filter and run it through?
82 Rabbit Diesel L

Reply #18February 05, 2009, 02:20:28 pm

jtanguay

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1.6 NA diesel pump leak
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 02:20:28 pm »
Quote from: "dieselwagen"
Quote from: "burn_your_money"
I'd try the ATF trick first. It's the fastest, easiest and cheapest. A rare combo.


i soaked my leaky IP with ATF last friday night with a brake bleeder kit hooked-up to the banjo bolt return line til red juice started coming out.
left it for 2 days, then drove it monday and no more leak so far.

it makes sense to just do the complete re-seal at one shot, changing seal one at a time is almost like dealing with a "comeback". it just involves more work in the end.

last sunday, someone locally traded me a bosch ve pump for my cherry picker. i'm so stoked that i can now practice on a spare.
if i figure this out before anyone comes up with an offer i can't refuse, i may not even sell my '86 vw at all.


if you follow that reseal thread with pics you should be good!


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Reply #19February 05, 2009, 02:27:17 pm

jtanguay

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Re: Pump leak
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 02:27:17 pm »
Quote from: "scj3230"
How does the ATF trick work?

I need to change out my fuel filter, should I just dump some tranny fluid in the filter and run it through?


the pump should be exposed to 100% ATF.  if you simply fill the filter with ATF, eventually diesel fuel will contaminate the solution.  

the way to do it would be either let the pump sit in ATF (while being full of ATF) or get one of those ATF jugs from the local parts store, and get some hose.  vinyl should work just fine for this, and also buy a small fuel filter.  the hose going to the IN on the pump should have the filter on it.  disconnect the fuel line on the fuel filter and hook that up to the fuel filter you bought, and take some vinyl hose and hook that up to the other end of the filter and put it into the jug.  disconnect the return on the pump and hook up a vinyl hose leading back into the jug of ATF.  let the car idle through as much as it takes to stop the leak (you might want to blip the throttle a bit to get the ATF flowing to the leaky spots).  keep an eye on the level because you don't want lose the prime in the pump.

this DIY thread from TDIclub has some good pics of how to do it.  even though its for a newer TDI, the basics are still there.  that guy went a little overboard with the barbed splicers (not really needed...)  if you use the stock fuel return hose, just make sure you tape it to the jug or something, otherwise it might fling off if you walk away... thats about all i can think of that would go wrong


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Reply #20February 05, 2009, 02:48:15 pm

dieselwagen

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Re: Pump leak
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2009, 02:48:15 pm »
Quote from: "jtanguay"

i just did a search, and can't find the post about the o-ring replacement.  maybe libbybapa will chime in? or you can send him a PM.


libbybapa's response in the middle of 2nd page on this thread went into detail = "in-car" o-ring replacement.
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5311
1986 golf 1.6

Reply #21February 05, 2009, 04:18:44 pm

jtanguay

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Re: Pump leak
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2009, 04:18:44 pm »
Quote from: "dieselwagen"
Quote from: "jtanguay"

i just did a search, and can't find the post about the o-ring replacement.  maybe libbybapa will chime in? or you can send him a PM.


libbybapa's response in the middle of 2nd page on this thread went into detail = "in-car" o-ring replacement.
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5311


hurray!  that should be stickied here!!!!  :D

thanks!

i'll re-post it here for easy reference

Quote from: "libbybapa"
EDIT: Read through the rest of this thread or this may very well not work. Okay, I did it on the bench. The process looks very straightforward, but would need to be performed systematically or else disaster might result. Here is the process I would take. The scariest issue IMO is the cleanliness issue. Any particulate in the pump head could be really disastrous for the pump or injectors. Cleanliness is more important than godliness in the diesel injection system.

1. If possible, take the car to the carwash or use a home pressure washer to thoroughly clean the pump head and injector lines. Short of the pressure washer, take out the toothbrush and start scrubbing, especially focusing on the seam of the pump body to head.

1.5. EDIT: Rotate the engine by hand so that the injection pump plunger is not being pushed by the camplate (90° crank after TDC). You can remove the timing hole bolt from the center of the pump head and measure using a dial indicator to find when the pump plunger is not moving.

2. Remove the injector lines and use tin foil to seal the injector bodies, lines and the check valves in the pump. I would go so far as to wrap electical tape around the perimeter of the tin foiled check valves, so that when the o-ring is being replaced it doesn't get damaged on the tin foil.

3. Remove the cold start cable, the rear pump mounting bolt, and the rear mounting plate from the pump head. Replace the two torx (30) bolts in the pump head but loose. Remove the center timing plug bolt. Install a short spacer and retighten the bolt down. Loosen torx bolts a small amount (1/4 turn each) and tighten the center bolt down a similar amount. Gradually work back and forth between the torx bolts and the center bolt loosening the torx a little, tightening the center one a little. When flush, the bolts are inserted clost to a 1/2" so there should be plenty of threads still inserted into the pump to keep the bolts from falling out.

4. Keep going with that procedure until the o-ring is visible. Clip the old o-ring off the pump head.

5. Stretch the new o-ring around the pump head. Remove one torx bolt and slip the o-ring into the channel in that area. Replace the bolt to the same depth as the others and remove another one. Slip the o-ring on the next bit, replace bolt, remove the next one, etc.

6. Once the o-ring is in place tighten down the two torx bolts a little at a time while you loosen the center bolt a little at a time. Remove the two torx bolts that do hold the plate on. Install the plate. Install the pump mounting bolt and cold start cable.

7. Remove tape and foil and reinstall injector lines tight to the pump, but loose at the injectors. Have someone crank the engine over while you watch for fuel at the injectors. When fuel is squirting from the lines at the injectors, tighten them down.

8. Start the car. It may run rough for a little bit while any remaining air is being bled from the pump and lines.

9. Check for leaks or untoward sounds coming from the pump or injectors.

10. Enjoy your favorite malt beverage  to celebrate your success and the fact that the dealership would have charged you for a *new* pump and the labor to replace the unit.


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Reply #22February 05, 2009, 05:22:10 pm

burn_your_money

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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 05:22:10 pm »
When I do the ATF trick I just clean the IN and OUT lines at the fuel filter and stick them both in a 1 L jug of ATF. Ideally you should use a filter but I'm pretty lazy sometimes. You need to make 100% certain that there is no dirt on the lines.

I then start the motor and rev the motor throughout the whole RPM range until there is just a bit of ATF left in the jug. Shut the motor down, hook your fuel lines back up as normal and let it sit for 24-48 hours. I usually dump the rest of the ATF into the tank for good measure.

This is not a permanent fix. Start saving your pennies


In regards to changing the head o-ring on the car, there is no possible way you can gaurantee there is no dirt in there. Whenever we take a pump apart at work there is always corrosion in the o-ring groove and surrounding area. Without taking the head out and properly cleaning it, I don't know how you could get it clean.
Tyler

Reply #23February 05, 2009, 05:38:15 pm

scj3230

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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2009, 05:38:15 pm »
Ok I am just clarifying, I remove the IN and OUT lines at the fuel filter, clean them off really good and stick them both in a jug of ATF?  Are the lines, once removed, long enough?  Or do you just have to find a place somewhere by or under your engine to rest the jug?
82 Rabbit Diesel L

Reply #24February 05, 2009, 05:52:34 pm

jtanguay

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Re: Pump leak
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2009, 05:52:34 pm »
Quote from: "scj3230"
Ok I am just clarifying, I remove the IN and OUT lines at the fuel filter, clean them off really good and stick them both in a jug of ATF?  Are the lines, once removed, long enough?  Or do you just have to find a place somewhere by or under your engine to rest the jug?


depends on where you put the jug of ATF with regards to fuel line length.. the return should be long enough.  for the price of the filter and vinyl hose, you might as well go that route just for added protection.

just make sure that the jug is very stable and won't fall over.  you have to also take into consideration that as the car drinks the fuel, the weight of the jug will go down... so it might topple over if not on a level surface.  i'd go as far as duct taping it somewhere to keep it secure.  the reason i would use vinyl hose for the IN fuel line, is so that it will stay at the lowest point in the jug (good for those pee breaks so you don't need to babysit the car.  idling through the jug of fuel might take a little while.. and no i'm not insinuating that you have an overactive bladder, but i'm pretty sure your diesel might be able to idle for an hour or more on that much fuel...)

even adding another little bottle of transmission stop leak might help...  all of those stop leak additives (well not all, but most) swell up the seals.  adding that to the jug of ATF will most likely increase your chances for success.


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Reply #25February 05, 2009, 06:33:09 pm

scj3230

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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2009, 06:33:09 pm »
So I remove the IN and OUT lines at the 'OUT' banjo bolt on my injector, and plug them.  Then attach the vinyl hose on the IN side and the OUT side of the banjo bolt and put them both in the jug.  Secure the jug and start up my car and watch it closely for about an hour or so and then turn off the car reattach the original fuel lines to the injector pump and let the car sit for 48 hours?
82 Rabbit Diesel L

Reply #26February 05, 2009, 06:39:53 pm

jtanguay

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Re: Pump leak
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2009, 06:39:53 pm »
Quote from: "scj3230"
So I remove the IN and OUT lines at the 'OUT' banjo bolt on my injector, and plug them.
 

no.  disconnect the return at the FILTER.  make sure its clean.  this line can be positioned right into the jug.  no extra line needed.  you might want to use tape to hold it into the jug though...

Quote from: "scj3230"
Then attach the vinyl hose on the IN side and the OUT side of the banjo bolt and put them both in the jug.


no.  disconnect the IN (again making sure its clean) side from the FILTER and hook that into the small in-line filter that you bought (make note of the flow position, it DOES matter! marked by an arrow - arrow leading to the injection pump)  then hook the other end of that filter to the vinyl hose, and then put that hose into the jug.

Quote from: "scj3230"
Secure the jug and start up my car and watch it closely for about an hour or so and then turn off the car reattach the original fuel lines to the injector pump and let the car sit for 48 hours?


ding ding ding!

on a side note, i cut about 1cm (maybe 1/4"?) off the ends of my fuel line going to the fuel filter.  if you notice, the insides of the lines will be all cracked... this is possibly due to the old diesel as well.


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Reply #27February 05, 2009, 06:49:44 pm

scj3230

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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2009, 06:49:44 pm »
So instead of disconnecting at the pump, I do it at the fuel filter making sure that I have an in-line filter on the IN side, and then I'm good?
82 Rabbit Diesel L

Reply #28February 05, 2009, 06:56:23 pm

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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2009, 06:56:23 pm »
Yeah pretty much. The reason for disconnecting the OUT is so you can see the ATF coming out. When it's pure and red you know that the pump is at least 85% full of ATF, which is enough.

I rev the motor up and get it done in about 15 minutes. There's no way I'd have enough patience to stand out there for an hour.

Try and get a helper to hold the jug (or start the car) and then just turn it off by unplugging the stop solenoid. I put it on the tray below the fuel filter, or the area where the air box is on a TD

Basically you are using the jug of ATF as the fuel tank.

You should use a filter, it's a good idea.
Tyler

Reply #29February 05, 2009, 07:02:08 pm

scj3230

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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2009, 07:02:08 pm »
Alright, my problem is that I don't have a clear return line going back to my fuel tank so I won't be able to tell that way.
82 Rabbit Diesel L

 

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