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Author Topic: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.  (Read 15650 times)

Reply #15May 03, 2012, 11:40:02 pm

CrazyAndy

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 11:40:02 pm »
If the TDI valves are a different length have the machinist cut some off and if nessesary cut new groves for the keepers. Or like I said have air cooled engines plus do the dirty work for you.

Yes but valve stem tops are sometimes treated in some way to resist wear.  And I'd be wary about cutting new grooves in stems, only for worry of the present grooves causing some machining problems.


Reply #16May 04, 2012, 12:04:42 am

JamesT

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2012, 12:04:42 am »
Keep in mind that stock valve stems are designed to resist wear for 5000 to 10,000 hours of use, and as many, if not more heat cycles. He's talking about an engine that will break a record, then maybe drive to a few shows afterwards. I think I've missed the point though. What's wrong with the 8mm valve stems? They reduce flow a little and increase mass, but they are designed to work in the head, and they use similar designed valves in gas engines that rev well over 6000r/m freely.
93 Golf - AAZ with some fueling
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Reply #17May 04, 2012, 01:30:58 am

Toby

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2012, 01:30:58 am »
A couple of questions:

What do you think swirl polished valves are going to do for you in a diesel? There main purpose in a carbed gas engine is to shed fuel droplets back into the airstream. Not much of a problem in a diesel. They do look cool though.

Has anybody calculated the CR in a 1.5/AAZ head Frankenmotor? 1.6s will start reliably on 225 psi as long as the ambient temps are above 65*F. (Hardly at all at 55*F, though.) If the Frankenmotor has starting problems, the CR must be really low.

Are the precups in an AAZ the same size at a 1.6?

Why use hydraulic lifters in a race engine?

« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 01:32:35 am by Toby »

Reply #18May 04, 2012, 01:40:49 am

billybobf

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2012, 01:40:49 am »
and if weight is an issue, run titanium valve spring retainers.

Reply #19May 04, 2012, 08:37:41 am

theman53

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2012, 08:37:41 am »
If the TDI valves are a different length have the machinist cut some off and if nessesary cut new groves for the keepers. Or like I said have air cooled engines plus do the dirty work for you.
Yes but valve stem tops are sometimes treated in some way to resist wear.  And I'd be wary about cutting new grooves in stems, only for worry of the present grooves causing some machining problems.

If it was machined to stock spec, it can be remachined and retreated to stock specs. I looked it up and it is 1.85mm taller. You are going to put a new seat in and at that point all would need to be machined to fit properly. If the machinist couldn't make it work by any means then I wouldn't have him do the head. If the first option wouldn't work the second is have the machinist make 7mm valves out of stainless blanks as I am having mine done. Again, it is one thing to have a machinist that doesn't want to do it and another to have one that can't. If you want the extra flow of the 7mm vavle there maybe some work involved, but this is also why people don't set LSR everyday.

Reply #20May 04, 2012, 10:17:43 am

Jetmugg

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2012, 10:17:43 am »
Thanks for all the information and ideas.  I'll try to describe my thought process and where I'm at with the engine side of the project.

I don't have particularly deep pockets, so I have to be careful where I spend my money.  Wherever I spend money, it has to "count".  That means that I don't want too much custom work being done if there are factory parts that will get the job done.  For that reason, I don't want to get involved with shortening of valves, re-cutting keeper grooves, etc. 

I like the idea of 7mm valves, but it doesn't look like there are any factory VW valves that would be a direct drop-in.  For that reason, I am most likely going to run the stock 8mm valves, buy a fresh set of single springs, and a fresh set of lifters.  I am going to keep it hydraulic for the sake of simplicity.  I read up on someone else (Saurkraut maybe?) converting a hydraulic head to mechanical, but I don't think I want to get into that whole affair.

The head has already had some light porting done to clean up the bowls.  I'm not planning to do any more porting.  It's going to get a valve job, new guides and seals, and the aforementioned new springs and lifters.

I realize that the 1.5/1.9 combo is unconventional.  I believe it will be a good setup for an LSR attempt.  The head should flow better than any of the factory 1.5 or 1.6 heads (bigger valves).  The pre-chambers are larger on the 1.9, and should yield a static CR of somewhere in the 17.5:1 range.  Starting may be a challenge, but I have to believe that it will be capable of starting for my needs.  The number of "wacky" engine combos used in LSR racing is mind-boggling.  The shop that is doing my head work recently cut a small-block Chevy in half to make a V-4, which is running Subaru cylinder heads with belt-driven overhead cams for a different class at Bonneville.  That is just one example of the type of creative engine combos that are used.

This will be a race-only engine.  While I don't have the money to rebuild a 1.6 head at this time, I do have a 1.6 head that could be pressed into service if the 1.9 just won't work.  I'm pretty optimistic that the 1.9 will work, though, and will get some dyno time before the LSR attempt is made.

The lack of static CR will be made up for with plenty of boost.  Giles will be doing the pump work, I have total confidence in his abilities.  It will have a water-to-air intercooler, running chilled water from an insulated tank.  A big thermostatically controlled oil cooler is also part of the plan.

The current record in this class is 106 mph over a flying mile at Bonneville.  While this might not sound like a big mountain to climb, the current and past record holders in this class are big names in the LSR world.  The #2111 VW Caddy that formerly held the record will be on the verge of 200 mph this year, with a turbo VR6 engine and a major-league effort.  The current recordholder also holds records in several Diesel Streamliner and other classes.   These guys are serious heavy-hitters.  Everyone assures me that it's not as easy as it looks.   There are a ton of details to consider throughout the entire vehicle.  Everything has to work well together in order to put your name in the record books.

There are several concurrent paths going on with this vehicle, in addition to the engine work.  The roll cage, safety equipment, body work, and suspension/steering/stopping are all subject to the same level of consideration and scrutiny.

I really appreciate the input from this forum, especially with respect to the engine configuration.  I have learned a lot already, and will continue to learn as much as possible.  Not a day goes by that I don't think about some of the details of this project, with a goal of running at Speed Week 2013.

Steve.


Reply #21May 04, 2012, 10:35:57 am

Jetmugg

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2012, 10:35:57 am »
For anyone who may be interested, this is pretty much what the truck will look like when it's "done".  This image has been photoshopped, but is the actual vehicle currently in my garage (in about a million pieces).






Reply #22May 04, 2012, 11:45:47 am

RabbitJockey

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2012, 11:45:47 am »
later aaz's came with 7mm valve stems, you may already have them.

all newer vw 8v's had 7mm stems, such as the aba.

you can get a more tapered valve guide also which should help flow in the bowl area u can supposedly get them in a better material that transfers heat better too.

also you can use the later 2.0 lifters which are supposedly lighter... since u are getting new ones, might as well get the slight upgrade

just a little fyi

also if i were getting a giles pump i know i would be getting atleast a 10 or 11 mm pump had.
01 Jetta TDI 100% stock daily
81 Rabbit:TDI-M ported head, Frank06 cam, PD intake, hybrid T3 turbo, Renault intercooler, Syl20 11mm pump, light weight fw, and yellow California Clutch clutch kit

Reply #23May 04, 2012, 12:21:04 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2012, 12:21:04 pm »
A couple of questions:

What do you think swirl polished valves are going to do for you in a diesel? There main purpose in a carbed gas engine is to shed fuel droplets back into the airstream. Not much of a problem in a diesel. They do look cool though.

i dont see a gain when there is no fuel, or anything present in your intake air

Has anybody calculated the CR in a 1.5/AAZ head Frankenmotor? 1.6s will start reliably on 225 psi as long as the ambient temps are above 65*F. (Hardly at all at 55*F, though.) If the Frankenmotor has starting problems, the CR must be really low.

17:1 iirc, so yes, very VERY LOW.. glow plugs may be deleted to bring some compression back. just machine some glow plug blanks, with a bigger displacement than the stock plugs.. the 1.6/1.9 has starting issues, so the 1.5/1.9 is REALLY gonna have some issues..

Are the precups in an AAZ the same size at a 1.6?

NOT EVEN.. the 1.6 uses 12cc cups, and i think the AAZ uses 17 or 18cc

Why use hydraulic lifters in a race engine?

why not? 6000RPMs is the physical limitation of the pump, the valves sure as hell wont be floating at that low of an RPM.. the gain from solid lifters would not be worth using them, in my opinion.. this is not a TYPICAL race engine..

ive driven cars with both types of heads, and i prefer the hydro heads, simply for lack of maintenance! the solid lifter clackity-clack heads DO sound cool, but i HATE adjusting valves, and these lifters are harder to adjust than any set ive ever laid hands on before..


92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #24May 04, 2012, 12:28:57 pm

billybobf

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2012, 12:28:57 pm »
ive driven cars with both types of heads, and i prefer the hydro heads, simply for lack of maintenance! the solid lifter clackity-clack heads DO sound cool, but i HATE adjusting valves, and these lifters are harder to adjust than any set ive ever laid hands on before..[/b]

hate to jack, but man I wish I would quit getting stuck with mechanical heads, if you cant get them adjusted right, its hard to tell if the noise is from running issues or from the valves

Reply #25May 04, 2012, 08:59:00 pm

theman53

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2012, 08:59:00 pm »
LOVE mech heads myself. If you have some feelers and enough shims they are awesome. I go to my pal in Mansfield where he has about 300 different shims and go to town. They are quieter heads in general and out of all the vw's I have owned the mech heads have more off idle snap...useless to this LSR attempt, but great in everyday driving. I think it is the main reason why I experienced little lag with a huge FMIC.

Jet...I have 0 knowledge of the pickup you are using, but what is available for the suspension. I think the engine will be fine for plenty of power, but hooking it all up is key. I would suspect you would want some super soft shocks up front so you would have plenty of hook up, but I could be off. I don't think custom or stiff springs would gain you anything, soft loose old whatever springs maybe the best for the soft ground you will encounter. Also to go along with that, tires for it would be of utmost importance and where if you don't have the $$$ that would be the first area I would spend it in is the suspension and tires.
Question=does the vehicle have to have brakes?

I only recomended the other valves as my guy in Tiffin, Ohio is less than 10.00 per valve. The swirl polishing included which helps create the turbulance he wants in the air so it mixes better in the prechamber, so 80.00 or less for valves, you won't be upset. If you had Mech valves I would give you 3/4 of my old set since I am going bigger on my new heads, but you are hydro...sorry. I have another friend in mind for these now. If I wasn't deep into my machining I would front the 80 or so to get you good valves, but I am into it and a cheap MF....I will help when I can.

Reply #26May 05, 2012, 12:26:51 am

RabbitJockey

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2012, 12:26:51 am »
soon me and a friend will see how mk1 coil overs fit on his charger, i believe the rampage is the same set up right?
01 Jetta TDI 100% stock daily
81 Rabbit:TDI-M ported head, Frank06 cam, PD intake, hybrid T3 turbo, Renault intercooler, Syl20 11mm pump, light weight fw, and yellow California Clutch clutch kit

Reply #27May 05, 2012, 06:46:34 am

Jetmugg

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2012, 06:46:34 am »
Same as a Charger, yes.  The "hot" setup is using Neon suspension parts. Coilovers, air ride, SRT4 parts, will all fit. A lot of other Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth stuff fits, too.

Reply #28May 05, 2012, 02:10:19 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2012, 02:10:19 pm »
LOVE mech heads myself. If you have some feelers and enough shims they are awesome. I go to my pal in Mansfield where he has about 300 different shims and go to town. They are quieter heads in general and out of all the vw's I have owned the mech heads have more off idle snap...useless to this LSR attempt, but great in everyday driving. I think it is the main reason why I experienced little lag with a huge FMIC.

Jet...I have 0 knowledge of the pickup you are using, but what is available for the suspension. I think the engine will be fine for plenty of power, but hooking it all up is key. I would suspect you would want some super soft shocks up front so you would have plenty of hook up, but I could be off. I don't think custom or stiff springs would gain you anything, soft loose old whatever springs maybe the best for the soft ground you will encounter. Also to go along with that, tires for it would be of utmost importance and where if you don't have the $$$ that would be the first area I would spend it in is the suspension and tires.
Question=does the vehicle have to have brakes?

I only recomended the other valves as my guy in Tiffin, Ohio is less than 10.00 per valve. The swirl polishing included which helps create the turbulance he wants in the air so it mixes better in the prechamber, so 80.00 or less for valves, you won't be upset. If you had Mech valves I would give you 3/4 of my old set since I am going bigger on my new heads, but you are hydro...sorry. I have another friend in mind for these now. If I wasn't deep into my machining I would front the 80 or so to get you good valves, but I am into it and a cheap MF....I will help when I can.

my engine LAGS like a MOFO with my big intercooler hooked up.. well, not BAD LAG, but it lags alot more than with the smapp cooler, or no intercooler at all..

and thats way cool you can use neon parts in the suspension..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #29May 08, 2012, 12:55:35 pm

Jetmugg

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Re: AAZ valves, springs, and lifters for performance build.
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 12:55:35 pm »
I just finished talking to TechTonics Tuning.  They are very knowledgeable about all the possible combinations of parts for gassers and diesels.  They are double-checking TDI valve dimensions with the goal of putting together a complete package of valves, guides, seats, retainers, and springs for this head.  These guys really know their stuff.

Steve

 

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