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Author Topic: Diesel Prices  (Read 7164 times)

April 27, 2008, 03:15:12 am

vegfuel

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« on: April 27, 2008, 03:15:12 am »
The price of diesel in my neck of the woods is now up to approx. $4.45 U.S. dollars/ gallon. This is really making wonder whether or not to install an SVO kit into my Golf which currently runs on biodiesel.

I have heard plenty of good things from SVO users but I am still very skeptical about the mechanical effects and how well can the injection system handles hot oil. I would think that an additive would be necessary to keep the injection system clean.

Can someone give me their opinion on this?


1986 Golf WVO converted.

Reply #1April 27, 2008, 03:32:27 am

jtanguay

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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2008, 03:32:27 am »
you could run an 80% diesel 20% wvo mix.  just be sure to filter it good and let it settle.  running an additive at this point would be wise.  20% cheaper fuel prices right there  :wink:


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Reply #2April 27, 2008, 03:37:13 am

mantajohan

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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2008, 03:37:13 am »
danm :!:  and you complain about that :?:  :shock:


the price here is equivalent of $8.26 U.S dollars/ gallon :shock: and the price is going up(more taxes)

if you use SVO there is no need to use a addative :wink: lubricates much better than diesel, engine runs better and so on and so fourth

if its just above freezing  
0-degrees celsius
32-degrees farenheit

and you have a mechanical injectionpump you can blend 50/50svo no problem, done so for 2 years without any problem about 30 000 veggie miles

last year i begun using wvo, pm if you are interested about knowing more about this, we are quite many around here that has been using the same recepy some more than than 81 000 WVO miles without any problems
BMW 525tds-94:  ?,?L/100km

blending veggie oil,
pros: easier starts, more power, longer lasting engine, smother running engine, less smoke

cons:not all eng/inj-pumps are suitable, have to endure hearing bull*** like: that it can't be done and that it damages the engine

Reply #3April 27, 2008, 07:11:39 am

Patrick

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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2008, 07:11:39 am »
Quote from: "mantajohan"
danm :!:  and you complain about that :?:  :shock:


the price here is equivalent of $8.26 U.S dollars/ gallon :shock: and the price is going up(more taxes)

if you use SVO there is no need to use a addative :wink: lubricates much better than diesel, engine runs better and so on and so fourth

if its just above freezing  
0-degrees celsius
32-degrees farenheit

and you have a mechanical injectionpump you can blend 50/50svo no problem, done so for 2 years without any problem about 30 000 veggie miles

last year i begun using wvo, pm if you are interested about knowing more about this, we are quite many around here that has been using the same recepy some more than than 81 000 WVO miles without any problems


Any chance we could get you to post another subject line with some details?? How you filter, how you mix, etc. Been seriousy considering this, fuel is up to 1.29 /litre here and still climbing. Got 5 diesels and access to oil...........

Reply #4April 27, 2008, 07:36:06 am

LoneWolf

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Diesel Prices
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2008, 07:36:06 am »
$4.45 for a gallon????

 Here in sunny sunny England were on £1.20 a litre, and thats the cheap nasty stuff!!

Reply #5April 27, 2008, 08:01:57 am

DCC

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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2008, 08:01:57 am »
The cheapest here is 1.14 euros a litre. That's 6.75 dollars a gallon.

However, diesel price has always been too low here compared with the rest of Europe, and has been rising for some time and probably will keep on rising.

Reply #6April 27, 2008, 09:52:33 am

burnt_servo

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Re: Diesel Prices
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2008, 09:52:33 am »
Quote from: "vegfuel"
The price of diesel in my neck of the woods is now up to approx. $4.45 U.S. dollars/ gallon. This is really making wonder whether or not to install an SVO kit into my Golf which currently runs on biodiesel.

I have heard plenty of good things from SVO users but I am still very skeptical about the mechanical effects and how well can the injection system handles hot oil. I would think that an additive would be necessary to keep the injection system clean.

Can someone give me their opinion on this?


converting my car right now to a "3 " tank system ........ i will post a thread on it in a couple weeks time when i'm closer to being finished .

but i am taking pics  while i'm building right now .
1990 jetta , tweaked pump , tweaked turbo , ported head  2.5inch exhaust .

1993 dodge w250 , diesel ... removing the dead moose parts .

Reply #7April 27, 2008, 11:22:39 am

madmedix

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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2008, 11:22:39 am »
I've been adding veg oil to my tanks for a while now, strictly as an IP beneficial...sure seems to make her happy. I don't have a source for WVO so I usually end up filtering the dregs of my deep fryer and let it sit for two weeks and de-water it before it goes in (wise move, lots of water in it after a batch of fries goes through it...just bring it up to temp to boil it off until it stops "snapping"). I usually end up with a couple litres per tank and it works out well.
I have read a couple of posts from folks in the UK that mix up to 40% pure veg and cut it with dino diesel....

That 3 tank build sure sounds interesting....

Cheers,
Andy
'90 TD Jetta

Reply #8April 27, 2008, 11:23:03 am

BejamminR

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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2008, 11:23:03 am »
I am also in the process of constructing an SVO / WVO 2-tank system.

Moreover, I'll be able to provide some pix and videos of what SVO spray patterns look like out of our injectors at various temperatures and such; this is something I've been working on for a while. It'll be at least another couple of months, but when I've got the stuff made up, it'll be posted here.

As far as an additive with SVO / WVO - no, not really necessary. Or rather, that is to say it isn't necessary as long as proper attention has been paid to everything else. Here's why:

Additives (Like Stanadyne Performance Formula) aren't really intended to "keep your injection system clean". They have a few main purposes:

- Raise cetane levels (Most North American diesel fuel hovers around 40
- Improve lubricity. Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) in particular has especially poor lubrication properties.
- Stabilize the fuel. Basically, prevent undue oxidation or other deterioration if you're storing it for a while.

In most good additives, there aren't any detergents or other "extras" because they're not directly related to fuel quality anyway. SVO / WVO is already:

- Higher cetane. Vegetable oils range in cetane from low-40's to over 60, depending on the feedstock. So at a minimum, we're talking 5 to 50% higher cetane than readily-available diesel.
- Better lubricity. WAAAAAY better, so long as all water (Not just FREE water, but that's another topic entirely) and all contaminants have been removed.
- Much Less Stable. Vegetable oil or even biodiesel are carbohydrates, not hydrocarbons. Bottom line is, they rot, and they are food for all manner of living things. Not so with diesel fuel. So with all other things being equal, SVO/WVO will oxidise much more quickly than "conventional" fuels and/or turn rancid in your tank / cans / drums in time. There are additives ostensibly intended for biodiesel or vegetable oil out there - I've never used any, nor examined their chemical composition, so I can't tell you a damn thing about them. My guess is that most of them are snake oil, but that is based on 100% conjecture and speculation. Feel free to disregard my opinion any time I have no info to back it up.

So basically, for 2 of the 3 major benefits provided by diesel additives, SVO or WVO is already superior, assuming that you have paid the requisite attention to collection, filtration, and handling. If you haven't done that, then all bets are off.
For the remaining one attribute, SVO / WVO is definitely inferior. However, if you are already aware of this and structure your usage and storage patterns around it (i.e. make use of good oil and burn it within 2 months) it shouldn't be an issue. Bottom line here is that diesel additives are meant for diesel, and the benefits that they confer on diesel fuel are mostly not required for (Properly Treated) SVO / WVO anyway.

If the oil is fully de-watered (which actually implies the use of a chemical desiccant or molecular sieve, not just removing the "free" water that you can see), filtered down to 1-2 microns, and de-acidified if necessary, there is no reason to believe that it will cause undue damage to your fuel pump. 99.9% of people won't do all of this, however. They will remove free water (skip the chemical dessicant or molecular sieve and just do a "crackle" test), filter it down to 2-10 microns give or take, and ignore the pH. I can't even begin to gauge what it will or won't do to your pump and injectors in that case - but over time, odds are high that it won't be good. You may well make back the investment to get another pump and rebuild your injectors in that time, I don't know. Just bear in mind that it likely won't run forever or even as long as on "conventional" diesel and you're OK.

With regard to how the oil will function in the injectors / engine.
As far as what will happen to injectors themselves, or within the engine; engine internals are beyond my knowledge and ability to test, so there's not much I can say. One point I can make is that Elsbett uses different injector nozzles for their SVO systems, which supposedly narrow the spray to keep the SVO away from cylinder walls, ostensibly reducing or eliminating coking and allowing a complete burn in air instead of spattering onto metal. Haven't seen or tested, can't make a judgement.

Giles and I may have the opportunity in the reasonably near future to strip down and fully examine (and document) an SVO/WVO pump which was put on brand new, used in a 2-tank system, and had 10-15,000 km put on it. There's nothing wrong with the pump at this point, we just figured it might be interesting to do an examination and see if there is any early damage or not.  The system is managed by a pretty conscientious guy, a friend of mine, so it's a good representative of the "best-case" scenario. If or when we get to that, I'll link to the full report and any associated images.

And that's all for my latest ramble. Hopefully some of this info is helpful.

Reply #9April 27, 2008, 11:24:58 am

BejamminR

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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2008, 11:24:58 am »
Quote from: "madmedix"
I've been adding veg oil to my tanks for a while now, strictly as an IP beneficial...sure seems to make her happy. I don't have a source for WVO so I usually end up filtering the dregs of my deep fryer and let it sit for two weeks and de-water it before it goes in (wise move, lots of water in it after a batch of fries goes through it...just bring it up to temp to boil it off until it stops "snapping"). I usually end up with a couple litres per tank and it works out well.
I have read a couple of posts from folks in the UK that mix up to 40% pure veg and cut it with dino diesel....

That 3 tank build sure sounds interesting....

Cheers,
Andy


I've done some of this too, and it has *seemed* to run more smoothly.

I still consider it a highly suspect practice, done out of my poverty rather than according to my better judgement. ;)

I don't know yet if damage has been done to any component of my system as a result, but it wasn't something that concerned me tremendously because I've got another car in progress. If this one fails, I'll get into the other one faster.

Reply #10April 27, 2008, 01:26:44 pm

vegfuel

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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2008, 01:26:44 pm »
BenjaminR wrote:

Quote

If the oil is fully de-watered (which actually implies the use of a chemical desiccant or molecular sieve, not just removing the "free" water that you can see), filtered down to 1-2 microns, and de-acidified if necessary, there is no reason to believe that it will cause undue damage to your fuel pump. 99.9% of people won't do all of this, however. They will remove free water (skip the chemical dessicant or molecular sieve and just do a "crackle" test), filter it down to 2-10 microns give or take, and ignore the pH. I can't even begin to gauge what it will or won't do to your pump and injectors in that case - but over time, odds are high that it won't be good. You may well make back the investment to get another pump and rebuild your injectors in that time, I don't know. Just bear in mind that it likely won't run forever or even as long as on "conventional" diesel and you're OK.


I am pretty familiar with testing for pH for the oil but how where would I get a chemical to de-water?
1986 Golf WVO converted.

Reply #11April 27, 2008, 01:38:58 pm

jtanguay

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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2008, 01:38:58 pm »
for the diesel additive i was thinking of an anti gel additive to keep the veg from thickening up on a cold night... now if the anti gel additives don't work on veg oil then i guess there is no need for additives.  something like power service.  they also sell biocide which kills the bacteria which creates acid and breaks down the oil.. plus they have a wide variety of other products to help 'disperse' water in the fuel system.  for the average joe wanting to save a few bucks on fuel, this might be the best option, as it does not take much of their product to treat a single tank.  plus it also stabilizes the fuel so you can store your fuel without worrying.

http://www.powerservice.com/bk/default.asp?view=app

this is around $18 cdn at cnd tire and will treat 300 gallons of fuel.  i bought two jugs about two years ago and i'm still on my 1st jug!  (goes to show how much i drive  :lol: but i don't always add the additive to the tank, it stinks and sometimes spills.. its worse than diesel!)

http://www.powerservice.com/dfs/default.asp?view=app

and looks like you can run year-round biodiesel with this stuff  :wink:

http://www.powerservice.com/aeba/default.asp?view=app


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Reply #12April 27, 2008, 01:44:52 pm

mantajohan

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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2008, 01:44:52 pm »
the simplest and best way to filter and dewater is using a centrifuge

either a oc-20(or bigger if you use much oil)

http://www.dieselcraft.com/productinfo_OC20.html

http://www.xyzworks.com/centrifuge.htm

or this simple centrifuge

http://www.simplecentrifuge.com/

after the oil has gone through the centrifuge enough its really clean and has amber like colour and water free
BMW 525tds-94:  ?,?L/100km

blending veggie oil,
pros: easier starts, more power, longer lasting engine, smother running engine, less smoke

cons:not all eng/inj-pumps are suitable, have to endure hearing bull*** like: that it can't be done and that it damages the engine

Reply #13April 27, 2008, 02:41:26 pm

BejamminR

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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2008, 02:41:26 pm »
Quote from: "jtanguay"
plus they have a wide variety of other products to help 'disperse' water in the fuel system.  for the average joe wanting to save a few bucks on fuel, this might be the best option, as it does not take much of their product to treat a single tank.  plus it also stabilizes the fuel so you can store your fuel without worrying.


"dispersing" water means introducing a solvent that absorbs it into the fuel. It doesn't mean getting rid of it. So what you're doing is raising the mixture's capacity to hold water chemically - this can still damage injectors / pumps / etc - it is exactly what I'm referring to when I suggest chemical dessication / use of a molecular sieve or something. The only benefit from water "dispersion" is that there is no free water for bacteria to colonize or to freeze solid in your lines during the winter.

A few points:
No fuel additives are presently designed for vegetable oil, as far as I'm aware. Will diesel fuel additives like Power Service work in vegetable oil? They'll do something, but that doesn't mean they'll work as intended. You can't necessarily make the assumption that they will.

Biocides do work to prevent the algaes/fungi/bacteria/whatever that will infest diesel fuel which has free water. They don't work by themselves to prevent the natural breakdown of vegetable oil or biodiesel. They'll prevent most kinds of bacteria from causing a problem, but it does nothing to stabilize the fuel.

"Stabilizers" are designed for conventional fuels, not for vegetable oil. The actual mechanism by which they work depends on the fuel that they are created for, but as far as I'm aware they don't "stabilize" vegetable oil in any meaningful way. Using them won't harm the oil, but it also won't yield the same long-term storage results as you get with diesel fuel.

Centrifuges do wonders to remove free water - they'll get all of it, and much faster than most other methods. However, they do NOT remove water that has been chemically bound into the mixture, only the stuff that is mechanically mixed in. So if you've used some "dispersion" method, or if you're using waste oil that has been heated at pressure with food in it, you've definitely still got water in the oil; the question is simply "Is there ENOUGH water in the oil to do damage?" In a lot of cases the answer will be no. I'm just raising a point here that is often glossed over and which is well worth considering.

Reply #14April 27, 2008, 03:19:48 pm

Baxter

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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2008, 03:19:48 pm »
I've seen Diesel here at £1.20 a litre, did some sums and that $10.80 per UK gallon..

Scarey biscuits.  :shock:

 

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