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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: jtanguay on January 21, 2005, 01:52:45 pm
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this is really ticking me off... I hear about people starting at -30C HOW!!!
my engine barely cranks over!!!!!!!!!! 900CCA battery in there, is that the problem? Its only -20C here and I need my car to start :(
I cranked it about 3 times, and now my starter sounds like it was wounded... lol? I'm hoping its the battery, but its a sears die hard! The ones on those commercials you see starting big trucks.. -40C cold cranking power.
Would it be worth putting 10w30 in the engine and or finding a 1200CCA battery? Does anyone have any tricks to start it this cold? I think my starter is going as well... This is VERY frustrating, as my gas golf would start right up no matter how cold it could get here (god bless mechanical fuel injection!)
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I use a oil pan heater, battery blanket, a good block heater, Howe's fuel condtitioner, a 1000CCA motomaster battery, and it has yet to fail in starting (all the way down to -45C last winter). It even started up the other day in an 'emergency' at -26C without being plugged in. I think good compression and proper wires to your starter help as well.
Cheers!
Tyler
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my brand new engine with a 1000cca battery wouldn't start the other morning. I changed to 0W40 synthetic and now there's no problem at all. I was running 15w40 for break-in.
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I think Dr. 'D' is right on the money with the synthetic oil. The conventional dung, is like sludge at these temps. You can barely move the crank with a ratchet wrench. I have a 1050 cca battery, and I soldered all of my joints, and installed new cables(1 gauge).
Jtanguay, if your starter is on the way out, then you had better rebuild or replace it. Cranking speed is critical for starting.
After -25C, I usually go out in the morning and plug my car in for about 15 mins, just to take the edge off.
Good luck.
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hmmmm i did put rotella synthetic 0w40 oil in there, so that should be good... has to be my starter/battery. I'd like to do work on it but the fingers don't last long out there! :(
oh yea forgot.. my battery is 800 CCA.... :( who makes a good 1200 CCA battery? I might as well go all out!
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Go down to your ESSO bulk station and grab a flat of 12 bottles. You have a choice between 0w30 and 0w40. Price is about 4 litres a bottle so it isn't much more than regular oil. If your car starts really well with it run it until the engine begins to start hard again. At this point the synthetic has gotten filthy from cleaning your engine so you'll have to change it again regardless of mileage.
For some reason my car now refuses to start when it is -30. I think it is because my IP is drooling fuel all over the place. :( Plug it in for half an hour and all is good.
Steve
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I plugged the car in overnight :(
I'm pretty sure its a bad battery... there is no way that it cranks over fast enough. The jumper cables that I used before to try and start it broke (werent meant to take that much amps and got REAL hot lol).
This weather stinks. I want to get under the hood and start laying out some new wiring.. possibly add another battery in the trunk in parallel with the one in front and try to get 1500CCA... :D
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If you are going to try to run parallel batteries, you have to make sure they both are identical in amp ratings. Also you will definetely want to use two new batteries. Otherwise the weaker will draw from the stronger, so to speak. I have found this way to be costly. I would recommend a larger single battery (from say a Dodge truck with a Cummins engine) and make sure all connections are good.
It has been my experience, that if a starter/starter circiut, alternator, or battery, that is in poor condition, will put excessive strain on the other components and cause premature failure. Meaning a weak starter will trash a battery very easily. They all need to work in unison.
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If you think the battery is at fault have it tested. This works most of the time but I had a battery that refused to fail a test but after going through everything else I tossed the battery. It was the battery even though it passed 3 different tests at 3 different stores. :? There were definately issues with my car that caused the battery to fail and I found them. New battery cables, new parts in the starter, new belts, new wires for the alternator, etc.
Steve
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does it fire right up no problem when you boost it off a running car?
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well it turns over faster... but it generally doesn't start up right away.
the car i boost off of also has to rev up, otherwise mine doesn't crank over fast enough... At -35C i got it to start dieseling (a little bit) but I couldnt keep it up... (this was with boosting)
my brother got me the 800 CCA battery for 25 bucks... so I'm probably just going to get another one of those and end up with 1600 CCA :D
there isnt anything wrong with mixing synthetic oil with say, 5w30 dino oil?(just to thin it out on a really cold day. i know that it will ruin my synth oil but thats ok)
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Your car still won't start? Maybe the wind is blowing away the heat from your block heater. The solution to this is to get a big blanket and wrap your engine up. :) You can also put a big rubber truck mudflap under the engine for the winter. That 15w40 has got to go too, it is probably the reason your engine won't spin fast enough to start. If it is safe to do in your area have somebody tow you down the road in 2nd gear to start it. Then change your oil before it cools off.
Steve
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If you are going to use two 800 cca batteries, you had better put two new ones in, and not use the old one. Ask any trucker, or anyone with pickups, or vans that have parallel batteries. They always replace both, and always have problems when one is old and the other is new.
If you plan on running 1600cca, you had better change the battery cables. Otherwise excessive cranking will ruin them in short time, with all the amps going through the cables.
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thanks for the info moonstone. i just got the 800 cca battery about 2 months ago, so it should be okay. i pay just 25 bucks for it so i dont mind getting even more :D
for the cabling, i'm probably going to go to home depot and rig some heavy duty wiring through the car, and have a switch to turn the extra battery on. (still thinking on how i can trickle charge the battery while the car is running... maybe i can find something at princessauto :))
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IF you insist on using two, just hook them both up the same. The alternator doesn't know how many batteries it's charging, it only reads voltage. Run a positive straight to the starter, and hook the negative to the block somewhere. I run two on my pickup (3/4 ton 4 door GMC powered by perkins :) ) and used to run a Kenworth that had 4. Don't replace one at a time, start with two new matched batteries, and stay that way. If one goes bad, replace both and use your other good one in a gasser, tractor, lawnmower, pickup truck, whatever. Unmatched just means trouble.
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this is really ticking me off... I hear about people starting at -30C HOW!!!
my engine barely cranks over!!!!!!!!!! 900CCA battery in there, is that the problem? Its only -20C here and I need my car to start :(
I cranked it about 3 times, and now my starter sounds like it was wounded... lol? I'm hoping its the battery, but its a sears die hard! The ones on those commercials you see starting big trucks.. -40C cold cranking power.
Would it be worth putting 10w30 in the engine and or finding a 1200CCA battery? Does anyone have any tricks to start it this cold? I think my starter is going as well... This is VERY frustrating, as my gas golf would start right up no matter how cold it could get here (god bless mechanical fuel injection!)
regarding your problems. Your car could be suffering from any number (or combination) of issues. The most common reasons why diesel engines won't start when cold are: 1 or more bad glow plugs, low compression, bad wiring (particularly the ground to the transmission from the battery), bad starter, wrong oil. So, what to do?
My car has a fresh rebuilt 1.6 diesel with a turbo. It has a brand new 800cca battery, new cables, rebuilt starter, sanded grounding points, 5W40 synthetic oil, and four new glow plugs. It starts in -23 degree weather without a block heater. So that is what the car is capable of, if everything is good under the hood.
The easiest thing to start with is the electrical connections. Just remove them one by one and sand them down till you get smooth, shiny metal. I cover mine with grease so they don't rust. Some people paint them. Others soder them. As long as you can keep the rust off of them, you are laughing.
If that doesn't help, replace your starter. Also check your glow plugs and put some low temperature synthetic oil in the engine so it turns easily.
If the car still won't start, then take out the injectors and check the compression. If it is low, then that is the problem. Diesels are compression ignition engines with no external ignition system. They operate at around 4 times the compression of a gas engine, and they need the extra compression to super heat the air, so that when the fuel is injected, it spontaneously combusts. If the compression is too low, then the air won't be hot enough to get combustion and the engine won't start. The only solution is to replace the rings.
chris
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man i dont really care about compression or any bs.. can i just put a bigger starter and force the damn thing to start? lol... who needs glow plugs... bigger compression!!!!!!!!!
my guess is that nobody makes a bigger starter for the 1986 vw jetta 1.6 TD (mechanical lifter if that makes a diff)
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[jtanguay wrote]
man i dont really care about compression or any bs.. can i just put a bigger starter and force the damn thing to start? lol... who needs glow plugs... bigger compression!!!!!!!!!
jtanguay why would you responed to chrissev with man i don`t really care about compression or any BS!.chrissev took the time to try to help you out with some excellent advice and routes to your problems.You my be frustrated with your cars issuses but every one is just trying to help you.If you responded to me like that I would rip you and that would be the last time I would try to help you.I would say that your starter is the problem if you care.
PS Your RIGHT who needs glow plugs just wait till JUNE!!
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that wasnt a direct reply to chrissev!!! Don't ass-u-me please. i'm having a hard enough time getting my car going (its embarassing when you have a car, but you cant drive it?!)... I appreciate any help I receive here.
sorry if my post was a bit rude, but I'm wondering if anyone has found a simple way to put a bigger starter in a vw... I really want to try that!!! that is all i meant.
i was thinking of putting it as another topic, but i wanted to leave the post in this topic i've already created, so yea unless i quote chrissev, i'm not directly replying to him thank you.
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ok,
i've been having the same problems lately too. i have 0w 40 oil in it, i have a good battery as far as i kno...it tested good and when boosted from another vehical it doesnt make much of a difference, i just replaced the ground and lead wire off the battery, and i had about 4 different starters in it with no difference. and it WILL NOT crank over fast enough to start. like i just drove home, and replaced the wires with new ones and even with the oil warm, it still wont crank. with my car up on one block and in 5th gear i can spin the engine relatively easy, definately easy enough for the starter to turn it, but it still wont crank. is there anything else that can affect the ability of the engine to turn over? i think it might be my starter but im not too sure, the one i put in it now has very few miles on it. i put a new 16v 2L starter in it and it helped a bit but it was still pretty slow at cranking.
THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP
Mark
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i put a new 16v 2L starter in it and it helped a bit but it was still pretty slow at cranking.
The highest power gasser starter is 1.1kw. The diesel starter is rated 1.8kw, thats a whole bunch more power. I would lean toward the old wound field direct drive type rather than the gear reduction unit, but any diesel starter will be worlds better than the best of the gas starters.
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thanks for the info. Direct drive sounds like the one I should get. What would be neat is to get a v8 diesel starter and put it on .. with enough juice... it would start no problems :) nobody has done experiments on bigger starters... at all?
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ok,
i had an old worn out diesel starter on it and i replaced it with a new gas starter cuz its all i had at the time. now i put a new diesel starter on it and it works better. the problem is my battery tho. it tested good, but i got a charger from a dealer somewhere and it charges up to 60 amps...its a huge unit. anyway i chareged it at 40 amps for 30 seconds then turned the key and HOLY!! i've never heard or seen any car crank as fast as mine did. i have a 650cca battery by the way. so all you need is a good, CHARGED, battery and your all set.
Mark
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but what was the temp?
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man i dont really care about compression or any bs.. can i just put a bigger starter and force the damn thing to start? lol... who needs glow plugs... bigger compression!!!!!!!!!
my guess is that nobody makes a bigger starter for the 1986 vw jetta 1.6 TD (mechanical lifter if that makes a diff)
If you're going to use brute force to get an old diesel with low compression to start in the cold, you need endurance rather than speed for your cranking. I used to get my old 79 rabbit started in the cold by towing it behind a friend's pick up truck and letting the clutch out in 2nd gear and just waiting till the engine fired up. If you crank it over long enough, it will start, the problem is the battery usually wears down before this happens, or you burn out the starter. One thing to remember is NEVER pull out the cold start lever until after the engine is running. It won't start if you do this, because this advances the timing, meaning the fuel is injected before the piston reaches TDC, and before the compressed air in the cylinder is as hot as it's going to get. After it is running, then you pull out the lever to advance the timing to make it run a bit faster until it warms up. For endurance and lots of sustained cranking ability you need a big battery and a starter in good condition. Some people wire multiple batteries in series to give them extra cranking ability. I used to just bring the battery from my old rabbit inside at night so it was warm by the time morning came, then I brought it back out and put it in the car all warmed up from being in the house. The car started like a charm when I did that. Only problem is the battery is quite heavy so it is a chore doing this.
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hmmm chrissev are you sure the car wont start with cold lever pulled out? I find that my car won't start with it pushed in? I keep reading that the lever should be pulled out only after the engine is started. The engine runs so rough and just dies with cold start pushed in, and seems like it misfires at idle until warm.
but like i said... i just pull it out and she turns on after 2 cranks (when it isnt super cold...)
thanks again for all your help!
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hmmm chrissev are you sure the car wont start with cold lever pulled out? I find that my car won't start with it pushed in? I keep reading that the lever should be pulled out only after the engine is started. The engine runs so rough and just dies with cold start pushed in, and seems like it misfires at idle until warm.
Mine is the same way, it absolutely will not start unless the advance is pulled out in the extreme cold. It will just keep sputtering and will never run on its own without it. With it pulled out it fires instantly and idles smoothly. I think whether or not the timing advance helps probably depends alot on your base timing settings. Could be a bit different for everybody.
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hmmm chrissev are you sure the car wont start with cold lever pulled out? I find that my car won't start with it pushed in? I keep reading that the lever should be pulled out only after the engine is started. The engine runs so rough and just dies with cold start pushed in, and seems like it misfires at idle until warm.
but like i said... i just pull it out and she turns on after 2 cranks (when it isnt super cold...)
thanks again for all your help!
Hmmm, well if it works for you. Next time your car won't start, try this: keep the cold start lever pushed in, and crank it over. As soon as it kicks, push the accelerator pedal half way down and pull out the lever. You have to do it really quickly. It should start. I don't mean wait until the engine is idling normally to pull out the lever, I mean wait until you have a kick from the engine.
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hmmm chrissev are you sure the car wont start with cold lever pulled out? I find that my car won't start with it pushed in? I keep reading that the lever should be pulled out only after the engine is started. The engine runs so rough and just dies with cold start pushed in, and seems like it misfires at idle until warm.
Mine is the same way, it absolutely will not start unless the advance is pulled out in the extreme cold. It will just keep sputtering and will never run on its own without it. With it pulled out it fires instantly and idles smoothly. I think whether or not the timing advance helps probably depends alot on your base timing settings. Could be a bit different for everybody.
I find the opposite. Pull out the lever and crank it, it acts like it will start, but never does. Keep lever pushed in and crank, it will kick and then if I pull out the lever quickly and give it some fuel with the accelerator, it runs. A lot of people have trouble accepting this concept because they are used to manual choke gasoline cars where you have to pull out the choke before you start the car. Diesels are really different engines and you can't treat them like a gas engine. You've got to learn to think differently about them when you are trying to start them.
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what if you timed your engine with the cold start pulled out. Wouldnt that affect it? (i think my mechanic timed mine with it pulled out.. not quite sure)
just a thought...
thanks again chrissev and quicktd i'll try that trick :)
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WOW... car starts now!!! got an extra 800 CCA in my trunk (in a battery blanket too) went to home depot.. rigged up some gauge 1 wire to the front battery in parallel with a heavy duty switch. For now I'm going to trickle charge the backup battery until I get something to charge it properly from the alternator. 15 seconds or so of cranking and she sputters to life!!!!! i'm glad that the diesel is working, for the mpg sake!
So she starts... but the starter makes some WEIRD noises. I guess i will have to drive it the way it is for now and hope it lasts until a nice warm day and i can replace it :). One thing is for sure though, if it wasnt a vw starter, it would have died long ago...
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what if you timed your engine with the cold start pulled out. Wouldnt that affect it? (i think my mechanic timed mine with it pulled out.. not quite sure)
yeah it'll definately affect it.
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WOW... car starts now!!! got an extra 800 CCA in my trunk (in a battery blanket too) went to home depot.. rigged up some gauge 1 wire to the front battery in parallel with a heavy duty switch. For now I'm going to trickle charge the backup battery until I get something to charge it properly from the alternator. 15 seconds or so of cranking and she sputters to life!!!!! i'm glad that the diesel is working, for the mpg sake!
So she starts... but the starter makes some WEIRD noises. I guess i will have to drive it the way it is for now and hope it lasts until a nice warm day and i can replace it :). One thing is for sure though, if it wasnt a vw starter, it would have died long ago...
when you replace the starter support the engine from underneath. It falls down otherwise (can crush your hand if you have it in the way)
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roger that thnx again :)
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I might be a little late on this, but here's some input.
I live in Calgary, so we get some pretty ridiculous weather fluctuations (40-50 deg C change in 2 days). I have to park at the C-Train to get to work and my '89 golf (non Turbo) was killing me last year (I sympathize with jtanguay), particularly because they would cycle the power every 30 minutes (freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw).
I have a client who coincidentally is a heavy diesel mechanic. I had the same problem where the car would barely turn and then the battery would drain. I was pissed, so I asked him to put the biggest g*dd*mn battery he could fit under the hood. The battery is a 1200 or 1400 (I'll have to look at it during daylight hours (all four of them).
Of note, he said that there was a problem with the glow plug relay, and that the only time they would warm was when the key was in the start position, that's why I would have to (and still do, I have to talk to him 'bout that) crank it for a while before it would start. Once he fixed that, all was fine. Maybe test your relays to see if all the plugs are warming/firing properly.
With the big b@stard battery, it turns the starter over in a damn hurry. I haven't had to call reinforcements yet this year. And my drives are only about 15 minutes, which theoretically should equate to my eventually having a dead battery (not enough drive time to recharge).
If you look at the information on the back of a battery blanket, you'll find it takes a ridiculous amount of energy to crank a car when the battery is cold. Combine that with the higher compression of a diesel engine and things start looking grim when your nostrils start freezing.
So if you can (or already have), invest in one and plug in wherever you go.
I also looked into some Cold Start systems, such as http://www.beru.com/english/produkte/iss.php. They have some systems that apparently kick @$$, but I've never been able to get a reply out of them.
As for starting, I'm with chrissev on the "choke" Once she starts catching, pull it out and push the throttle about half way. It'll come around.
I'm going to try some of that 0w40 to see if my starting gets better.
BTW, nice to see so many Canucks on the site.
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dub,
ufa sells a rebadged esso 0w30 and 0w40 synthetic oil called polar plus. its dirt cheap, and will help in those cold winter months.
do a search here or tdiclub.com under my user name to find out more.
also, is your client mechanic taking new customers?
good to have another calgarian. pm me anytime.
rico