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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Benjamin on June 22, 2007, 01:04:22 pm

Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Benjamin on June 22, 2007, 01:04:22 pm: guys, how to know the dynamic timing is good/best adjusted without several dynoruns?

background information
(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2573/normaltimingqh1.jpg)

(http://scirocco.cs.uoguelph.ca/gtd/bosch-ve/figure-31.gif)

http://scirocco.cs.uoguelph.ca/gtd/bosch-ve/timing_1.jpg
http://scirocco.cs.uoguelph.ca/gtd/bosch-ve/timing_2.jpg
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Benjamin on June 24, 2007, 07:12:40 am: hmmm, zero replies, why, i think its a intressant discussion to make more power & economy :roll:

Greetz, Benjamin
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Mark(The Miser)UK on June 24, 2007, 09:32:17 am: Isn't the table a pinch from a pinch from the Cummins site? :wink:

Advancing is better..... then reduce NOX by lowering combustion temps (i) by intercooler?
(ii) by slower burn by lower injection pressure?

Andrew get that piezo attached to something soon else it'll rust in the box :shock:
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: saurkraut on June 24, 2007, 10:49:55 am: Haven't tried it, but looks interesting:

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?s=e8df8ac10f32179462f736a97291b10b&t=152389

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/1071029711/r/4981009821#4981009821
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Mark(The Miser)UK on June 24, 2007, 11:25:32 am: How do you stop some merbau wood laminate from creaking when walking on it. Laid on a wooden floor that is curved in places. 15" off the ground so not removable. been packing with newspapers!

Readings:

'Advance v rpm' for known economic engines and for uneconomic ones.

Effect of internal pump pressure on span/rate of advance v rpm.

' FER STARTERS':lol:
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Mark(The Miser)UK on June 24, 2007, 01:38:17 pm: Quote from: "saurkraut"
Haven't tried it, but looks interesting:

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?s=e8df8ac10f32179462f736a97291b10b&t=152389

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/1071029711/r/4981009821#4981009821

Looks like a good read Saur....
Questions already brewing but I'd better read on first :wink:
Thanks
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: jtanguay on June 24, 2007, 04:34:10 pm: hmmm very interesting... measuring cylinder temps with the seebeck effect...

it would be a good idea to buy a set of GP's first and test them in an oven at some general temps.. such as 100F to 400F. discard GP's that are off. then at least you have something to work with. over time they won't work as they once did, and that will throw off a reading too.

i really like the concept though! this would be an awesome way of testing the benefits of 935racer's manifolds on cyl temp vs stock!
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Benjamin on June 25, 2007, 02:35:14 pm: how to measure internal IP pressure, where, how??
what valeus are acceptable and what is better, i think you also can have to advanced inition?!?

Greetz, Benjamin
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Tintin on June 25, 2007, 03:31:04 pm: Measuring the internal pump pressure you not did the timing degree.

Look at this, I bought it on ebay for a cheap price, they are optical glow plug, and the meter detecte combustion in the cylinder.

(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5971/im001920vr4.th.jpg) (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001920vr4.jpg) (http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9204/im001917as3.th.jpg) (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001917as3.jpg)

(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3506/im001916uc2.th.jpg) (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001916uc2.jpg) (http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7682/im001915tw6.th.jpg) (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001915tw6.jpg)
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: jtanguay on June 25, 2007, 04:23:00 pm: that is crazy!! now you're getting really precise :)
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Vincent Waldon on June 25, 2007, 06:26:52 pm: Very very cool.... I suppose the only downside is that you'd have to install it in dreaded Glow Plug #1 ??!!!!
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Benjamin on August 06, 2007, 03:03:48 am: i am currently working on a modifiation to add more advance, i aspect 150%, the pump need to be disammbled to do this.

(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/228/kopievanmachinedpict004lg2.jpg)

Quote
Pressure in pump MUST be 43.5 Psi at 1000 RPM engine
Pressure at 2000 Rpm -about 75.4 Psi.
stated by hangar

There are several springs, there are 3types OUT-bolts, is this always the right pressure??? For IDI and TDI-m engines?

Greetz, Benjamin
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Tintin on August 06, 2007, 07:51:37 am: The internal pressure of one or other pump is not proportional to the dynamic timing advance, that depend of the set-up of the timing system in the pump and its engine application, DI, IDI, ect...

Measuring the internal pressure to adjust the timing is the wrong way to be used, that gives any information in degrée for the timing, it have there pumps with 90psi at max rpm and allow 15 deg timing, and another with 150psi at maximum rpm with only 10deg of timing, it have there several factor inside the pump who can modify the timing curve.

The only manner, is to adjust your pump timing on a test bench, or with specific timing tool on the engine, or try and error on road test.

For sure, before building a modified pump, is necessary assured that the timing piston can travel a distance of at least 10mm, modified for 15mm it's the way for high RPM.
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Benjamin on August 06, 2007, 02:34:33 pm: Tintin, Do the internal pressure control something else than the timing piston? Do you have the value's for internal pump pressure in a list for every VE pump for stock settings??

Greetz, Benjamin

Edit:
this is the way i measure.
(http://www.aqualliance.nl/ppo/Spoelbanjos-uiteen.JPG)
(http://www.aqualliance.nl/ppo/Spoelbanjos-ineen.JPG)
one bolt comes from the bolt this double bolt, the other connection on the double bolt is with the gauge on, the OUTbold go to the original line, back to feultank.
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Tintin on August 06, 2007, 04:11:33 pm: Give me your pump number and I would give you the internal pressure.
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: sidelights on August 19, 2007, 01:21:10 am: I used a SnapOn strobe timing adapter to set the timing accurately on my IDI.

I've just gone m-tdi and have no info for the timing setting, it's currently set at 10 degrees btdc and seems quite happy, anyone know what the ideal setting is?

Bren
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Mark(The Miser)UK on August 19, 2007, 01:25:07 pm: (http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/4205/spoelbanjosineenkv7.th.jpg) (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spoelbanjosineenkv7.jpg)

Now that I have lightened the colour [ and made it clickable] we can see your green peace signs ..oops your arrows.. :wink:

How does this attach to the pump output without a longer bolt :?: ... or is this something for an n/a pump??

greetz...? 'Thanks'
Mark
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Mark(The Miser)UK on August 19, 2007, 02:31:05 pm: Quote from: "libbybapa"
My guess is that an ordinary banjo bolt goes in the pump in the place of the "out" bolt. The return hose from that banjo gets connected to the bottom banjo of the pictured assembly. A hose goes from the middle banjo to a gauge and the far right banjo (around the actual "out" bolt goes to the return to the tank. Should work nicely. I like my method better for simplicity.

Andrew

How many psi on the hose link???... Goggles please ;o)
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Benjamin on September 11, 2007, 08:57:12 am: Quote from: "Tintin"
Give me your pump number and I would give you the internal pressure.

0 460 494 390
R 508 1
015 761 405390

this is it :D (check also your PM :wink: )
can you tell me also the right procedure or the rpm or so?

Greetz, Benjamin
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: Tintin on September 11, 2007, 03:36:59 pm: Quote from: "Benjamin"
Quote from: "Tintin"
Give me your pump number and I would give you the internal pressure.

0 460 494 390
R 508 1
015 761 405390

this is it :D (check also your PM :wink: )
can you tell me also the right procedure or the rpm or so?

Greetz, Benjamin

Arff..!! excuse me, I forgot you :oops: at once that I have 2 minutes, I send you information.
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: fatmobile on August 10, 2008, 11:41:52 pm: Is the internal pump pressure and timign curve different for a 1.5?
I'm playing with a 107A yellow dot pump and am curious what these curves look like compared to the 1.6 107AG pump
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: fatmobile on August 14, 2008, 09:26:24 am: Any info on the yellow dot timing curve?
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: fatmobile on August 15, 2008, 11:41:43 pm: Quote
For sure, before building a modified pump, is necessary assured that the timing piston can travel a distance of at least 10mm, modified for 15mm it's the way for high RPM

I tried shortening the timing piston by 5mm. It was too much for a 107A and I think it looks like too much for the 107AG.
The pin connected to the roller bearing holder, through the injection pump body, hits the body before the piston bottoms out.
2mm is more like it.
Title: dynamic timing, tune
Post by: fatmobile on August 16, 2008, 09:49:37 pm: More mods.
Yeah I guess there is a way to get 5mm out of it.
Maybe the next pump. :lol: