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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Black Smokin' Diesel on May 24, 2007, 08:01:21 am
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I had the Jetta TD (87) towed to a vw shop this morning so I could get the timing properly done. As it turns out, the pump cannot be timed. The dial gauge reads nothing, zero, niet, nada. This shop has a pretty good reputation and with the amount of VW diesels in quebec, I have no doubt they know how they work.
Here's a short resume of what work I did on the engine. I replaced the head, injectors (mercedes, known to be good) and heatshields, new glowplugs, new lifters and used a 1.9TD headgasket. Replaced the crank, intermediate shaft and cam seal, new timing belt and tensionner, aluminum thermostat housing and non-tracked IS pulley were used. There's a bit more but you get the idea.
I got the engine running yesterday. It smoked badly, had little power and the injectors were loud as hell (big rig loud). After three to four minutes, the engine shut off and never started again. I replaced the head because one of the injector boss was cracked. The HG was due for along with the TB. Prior to all this, the engine had started to develop a loud injector knocking. This was the breaking point for me and decided to get dirty. The only thing the engine does is crank and crank and crank. Sometimes it starts for one or two seconds but dies immediatley even when giving it gas. My guess is that fuel accumulates in the cylinder and ignites briefly.
Now the car is sitting docks, with an injection pump that can't be timed. Any ideas as to why the IP can't be timed?
Here are some pics of the car, just for kicks.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/TD/IMG_3228.jpg)
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/TD/IMG_3230.jpg)
Who can tell me what the sensor located on the crankcase vent tube near the intake tube is for?
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/TD/IMG_3231.jpg)
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If the dial indicator shows nothing, I'd guess the pump is hosed. You sure the pully isn't slipping on the shaft?
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If the dial indicator shows nothing, I'd guess the pump is hosed. You sure the pully isn't slipping on the shaft?
Pulley is on tight, I torqued it at 33lb-ft like the bentley says, with a locking washer.
If it starts at all, then the plunger IS moving and the reading of "0" on the dial indicator is an error.
Andrew
So the dial would be faulty? Could bad injectors cause this?
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Maybe they don't have the correct dial indicator, one long enough to contact the plunger? What if you loosen the bolts on the IP enough to be able to move it, have someone try to start the car, and try rotating the pump?
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As Jimfoo suggested, you are sure the key is installed in the pump shaft and that the sprocket is not spinning on the shaft, right?
Andrew
100% positive. I check it, and the shop did too.
Maybe they don't have the correct dial indicator, one long enough to contact the plunger? What if you loosen the bolts on the IP enough to be able to move it, have someone try to start the car, and try rotating the pump?
I already tried that but to no avail.
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Bad injectors won't cause a "0" reading on the dial indicator. The dial indicator shows the movement of the plunger in the pump. If the dial indicator is giving an accurate reading of "0", then the plunger would not be moving. In that case no fuel would be injected at all and there would be no signs of life with the motor. If is starts at all, even for brief spurts, then the person using the dial indicator is not doing it correctly.
Andrew
Well the guy there told me how they time the pump and it was the same as described by the bentley. The gauge didn't seem broken, it moved with slight pressure on the needle.
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If that's the case, then it sounds like the pump is hosed. Maybe something snapped inside and allowed it to turn somewhat, but the more it turned, the more it wore down until now it just slips?
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If that's the case, then it sounds like the pump is hosed. Maybe something snapped inside and allowed it to turn somewhat, but the more it turned, the more it wore down until now it just slips?
Maybe. Prior to replacing the head, the injectors started to knock a lot and the car lost power. After the swap it was extremely loud, had no power. Now it just won't start.
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Well hopefully it isn't to bad to fix. Maybe time for a Giles pump. :wink:
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I believe the sensor on the CCV tube is not a sensor at all, but a simple heater so ice doesn't form and clog the CCV tube in cold weather.
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Well hopefully it isn't to bad to fix. Maybe time for a Giles pump. :wink:
I'd love to but my budget is low. I'm just a poor student :P
I believe the sensor on the CCV tube is not a sensor at all, but a simple heater so ice doesn't form and clog the CCV tube in cold weather.
Interesting. Thanks for the answer.
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I would pull the timing plug bolt out and use a small screwdriver as a feeler while I rotated the engine by hand. The end of the plunger (which the screwdriver should be touching) should move in and out 1/8" twice per crank rotation (4 times per pump rotation). If it does, then the dial indicator was not used correctly. If it doesn't, then the pump is toast.
Regardless, if the plunger was not moving you would not even get a sputter from the engine.
Andrew
If the pump is good and the plunger is moving, why won't it start? The pump is timed approximately using the marks on the pump and pulley, shouldn't it at least idle?
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its not qiute that simple with diesels .... the pump has to be timed in a certain range ( for proper fuel dispersion ... etc) or the engine won't fire at all ... a couple of mm either way will make it impossible to even start it .... spec for 1.6 na is .89 mm - .96 mm either side of this and its a no go situation ....
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its not qiute that simple with diesels .... the pump has to be timed in a certain range ( for proper fuel dispersion ... etc) or the engine won't fire at all ... a couple of mm either way will make it impossible to even start it .... spec for 1.6 na is .89 mm - .96 mm either side of this and its a no go situation ....
i've my 1.6TD set to around 1.06 or so...
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Crack the injector lines open and crank the car over, see if you are getting any fuel. I'm sure you are familiar with the checks if you aren't.
I agree that you should try the screwdriver method
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Ok so dial not moving means plunger not moving but engine sputters so plunger is moving so mechs could be numbnuts but vanes could be bad. Dammit. Could bad timing/pump cause loud injector knocking?
Setting the pump aside, what would cause the engine not to start? Bad glowplugs but it's 25°c so it's not an issue and they are brand new. Low compression but the engine had compression before the head swap, the HG is new, the bolts are new and properly torqued. Could a head lose that much compression thru the valves?
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Ok so dial not moving means plunger not moving but engine sputters so plunger is moving so mechs could be numbnuts but vanes could be bad. Dammit. Could bad timing/pump cause loud injector knocking?
Setting the pump aside, what would cause the engine not to start? Bad glowplugs but it's 25°c so it's not an issue and they are brand new. Low compression but the engine had compression before the head swap, the HG is new, the bolts are new and properly torqued. Could a head lose that much compression thru the valves?
Bump any more thoughts?
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Setting the pump aside, what would cause the engine not to start?
I don't think you can set the pump aside.... Do you have one of those pulleys on it that would make it possible for it to be timed 180 out? I think that might show 0 movement on the dial indicator :?:
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Andrew is exactly right. Don't worry about anything other than taking a reading from the end of the pump. Get that 1/8th inch 3mm movement first.Then get the 1mm you require. Injector cannot spontaneously squirt. There has to be piston movement.
Your dial gauge is not screwed in far enough or the inner rod is too short and has come from some other adaptor. The only other way of it spluttering is if there was a large residue of old fuel in the intake or someone is breathing meths down the intake :wink:
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Alright guys thanks a lot.
I'll give the shop a call and tell them to check it again with the screwdriver trick and time it if there's movement. If it's dead I'll have to replace the pump.
Well after checking the bently is all leads to either a faulty pump or bad timing (smoke, low power, hard to start if it does and it would probably get crap mpg).
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Ok the car finally runs as it should!!! Idle is smooth at 950-1000, no smoke, slight injector knocking and starts on the first few cranks. It's pretty low on power right now becaused I backed out the max fuel screw a bit too much :P
Unfortunately a rear brake line started to leak on my way home. I pinched the line to stop the brake fluid from leaking and to have decent pedal stiffness. It should be fixed this weekend.
Other thing, the oil buzzer and light came on a few times :? I know the oil pressure is good but I think it might be due to the grade of oil I used. 10w30 must be a bit too thin for summer use. If it's not that, it's probably a wiring gremlin as both sensors are new.
I gotta fix the rad fan too, it's not turning on.
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What was wrong with it?
Make sure the t-belt isn't loose and slipping on the pulley
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So what was wrong with the gauge? Pin too short :?: :roll:
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So what was wrong with the gauge? Pin too short :?: :roll:
I don't know if they used the exact same gauge but they got the pump timed after the screwdriver trick. They did a "diesel tune" as they call it too. They ran the engine on some sort of cleaning agent, got rid of the crap in the pump and cleaned the injectors. It did a pretty good job at smoothing up the idle. They also did an engine shampoo to see if there were any leaks (all that oil sludge can hide some nasty stuff). Pretty cool to see the engine this clean.
I turned the fuel up a bit so the powerband has some power but not as much as before. It doesn't even smoke at WOT. I'll keep it that way for now until I can buy an EGT gauge or install an intercooler. The K24 whistles a bit more than the tired T3 I had. Kinda nice to hear in the background.
I had forgot how much fun driving my MK2 TD is. My moms Elantra GT was nice and quiet but it's nowhere near the feel and handling of a MK2. Plus the fuel mileage was atrocious, I couldn't even bring myself to calculate how much MPG it did.
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So you're saying you owe me an injection pump? :D
Andrew
Sure which of the two I have do you want? The seized one or the topless one :P
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If the seized on had an aneroid top on it, I'd be interested in it as a core. No real use for a topless pump unless it has particularly attractive fuel nipples. :lol:
Andrew
Haha sorry no aneroid top. I can send you a bunch of nipples if you want :P
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makes sure the dial gauge reads metric mm not inches, i had that problem when i bought a cheap gauge off ebay, then you have to do some math and convert units, just eye ball it lining line on pump up with line on ip bracket the tun it a bit at a time toward motor advances it
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makes sure the dial gauge reads metric mm not inches, i had that problem when i bought a cheap gauge off ebay, then you have to do some math and convert units, just eye ball it lining line on pump up with line on ip bracket the tun it a bit at a time toward motor advances it
Thanks for the advice but the shop I took the car to finally got it properly time. It's running great too.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/Video/th_MVI_3740.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/Video/?action=view¤t=MVI_3740.flv)