VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: therabbittree on January 03, 2005, 06:16:57 pm
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I think Jake has this setup on his..i searched on the forum and didn't come up with much... Blake and I have beebn debating this .. I thought you could do it some how..i forgot if you need a hydraulic block and solid lifter head etc?.... or what? ..blake doesn't want to swap his solid lifter block out..but he keeps blowing head gaskets..bad.. 12mm pump and over 35 psi boost..then if you hold the power for to long poof.. blews it right out the driverside of the head..i blew mine there a few times my self...so a multi layer steel setup should hold a lot better..maybe o ring it or 1 piece fire ring setup ? any luck?
later
Thanks
Deo
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The gasket used was not a TDI part but one for a 1.9TD. The 1.9TD uses a steel shim gasket very similar to the TDI unit but has the proper outline for the prechambers. As I recall this gasket was used on a solid lifter 1.6 but required some plugging of the unused holes. With a hydraulic motor it would be a bolt on.
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Possible part number?
C
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cool yes if someone has part #s that would be cool..are they available in all the thickness sizes / notches?...any one oring a head using the steel one?
thanks
deo
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Ask and ye shall receive...
1.9TD head gasket part numbers are as follows:
1 hole (1.53mm) 028 103 383BH
2 hole (1.57mm) 028 103 383BJ
3 hole (1.61mm) 028 103 383BK
The thicknesses are the same as 1.6TD gaskets with corresponding numbers of holes.
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Blessed are those with information!
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No, blessed are those with ETKA... :D
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I just wanted to add that although the multi-layer steel 1.9lTD head gasket thicknesses are the same as an equivalent-number of notches 1.6l hydraulic lifter motor head gasket, the thickness can be different comparing a 1.6 liter solid lifter motor head gasket.
1981-1984 1.6 liter solid lifter head gasket thicknesses are (according to ETKA):
1-notch: 1.4mm
2-notch: 1.53mm (or 1.50mm according to Bentley)
3-notch: 1.61mm (or 1.60mm according to Bentley)
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Altrom lists some odd part numbers for metal 1.9lTD AAZ head gaskets that don't match ETKA's. Here are the part numbers that they list:
028 103 383 BB - 1.53mm / 1 Hole Metal
028 103 383 BC - 1.57mm / 2 Hole Metal
028 103 383 BD - 1.61mm / 3 Hole Metal
Can anyone verify that these part numbers are correct? (I sure hope they are, because I just ordered a couple! :o )
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I have had good luck with the 1.9 metal headgaskets. I actually use 1.9 gaskets on allt he head jobs I do now, na, stock turbo diesels or high performance. Haven't blown one yet. I put one in dvst8rs jetta and he was running 35 psi with headbolts not studs for 3 months so far with no problems. I put one in Malones 1.6 with 1.9 head but he has head studs, when I add a gt30 to his gt 20 I hope to run 45 psi, and I think the gasket will hold. As far as o ringing and flame rings go I looked into it originally for malones motor but I couldn't find anyone who could do a bore so small, I was plannign on making my own tool to o ring but I can't blow the headgaskets with the 1.9 metal ones so until then no need I guess. Oh and aren't the one hole 1.6 hydraulic gaskets 1.4mm? this is just off the top of my head and my etka is down, quicktd what is it?
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The 1.9 gasket has a 3mm larger bore as well so there could be a bit off a compression loss, though I haven't done the math yet to figure out how much.
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According to ETKA, 1-notch hydraulic lifter 1.6 head gaskets are 1.53mm thick (and 2 notches 1.57mm, and 3 notches 1.61mm) ...same as the 1.9lTD gaskets.
The multi-layer steel head gasket worked great as well when I tried it on my 1.6 solid lifter probably a couple years ago. The only problem was the design of the plug I made to fill up the extra oil return hole wasn't sufficient to completely hold back the coolant, so when the motor cooled down completely and sat with headgasket relaxed, a tiny amount of coolant would weep out the front of the block/head past the plug. Although it never actually effected the coolant level, it was still annoying. I'm going to try again with the plug this time using a different design that is more elastic.
You're right about the extra dead space as a result of the larger bore, but in some cases the better head gasket seal is just plain worth it. On the old multi-layer steel gasket I removed from my 1.6, I noticed that the dead area around the bore was at least partially filled in with carbon.
The VNT turbo'ed Rabbit despite studs has sprung a head gasket leak. I think it was simply a result of the boosting happening on cold motor, so it will be receiving one of the multi-layer steel HGs. My Rabbit GTD autocrosser, now that it is desined for high boost pressure, will get the other one. :)
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I wish I could make the 1.9 gaskets leak :evil: I want to make an o ringing cutter for small bores :twisted:
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all good to here..i want to test my twins on my new engine before i do a tdi in it ...so these all some good..i would take to haisley machine here http://www.haisleymachine.com/
they make fire ring kirts for cummins engines. i spoke to them last summer an dthey could get their supplier to get a ring our bore size, i forgot the spec but they need to crush i think 15 thousands it is strongest if you do a block and a head receiver groove and figure out the extra depth to do the groove ..with a idi the harde rprechamber is there so a blokck groove only would work..i've hear dof people doing head only grooves also..i thing a blosk only groove with studs would be the easy...of course figuring out th proper groove depth forth ecrush would probably eat up afew fire rings and i would like to have aextra set of 4 around to have if you had to tear the engine down..if we get enough people maybe we can get a group buy. the advantage to the fire ring is there is no gap its a 1 piece donut type ring. so they use em inthe tractor pullers ie 200 psi and up...no leaks...you have to cut teh factory head gasket to clear them ..but i bet a mls head gasket could get its fire ring waterjetted to fit..
thanks
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
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Deo, im up to get my block fire ringed. But the main problem is that im located in Quebec, and shipping will be almost impossible.. but do you think that i can get the block groved at any good machine shop and just buy the rings ? I think that a copper gasket can be nice with firering..
Marc/
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well i was gonna buy the rings them selves and then have my machinist here in ny do the machining. I was not going to ship my block or head to them..for a idi i would do a block groove fro the tdi i would try to do a block and head groove. i would not use acopper headgasket on teh street i would fro a race car but teh water leaks would driv me nots on teh street ..if it did leak..
thanks
Deo
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For the fire ring, i was talking about my 1.6TD, not my TDI. The new project is an 1.6TD engine.. so i want to get it fire ring. But do you think that only groove the block will ne enough, and will it seal correctly and the ring will sit on the prechamber ?
The next problem will be, how much deep and what`s the size of the groove we need ? It should have some tight measures to get.. Perhaps Haisley can provide with the ring, the spec of the groove we need ? I don't want to experiment much on this way, i don't have many engine block to test.. :)
Marc/
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I would say try to blow a 1.9headgasket with studs first. I've had no luck. Its far cheaper than fire ringing or o ringing. Also deo where are you getting 12mm pump heads for these pumps and where/what di cam plate are you running?
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Im gonna try this first ( 1.9 gasket ) i was just worry about the dead space due to the over boring. Im gonna run a 12mm pump with a lot of boost. And once the 12mm will be test, i`ll switch to bigger custom head :twisted:
Deo, have you tried the DI camplate on the IDI engine ? If yes, how the engine react ? The ramp is a lot more aggressive on a DI plate than a IDI, so im a little worry about the combustion issue..
Marc/
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Don't worry about the dead space, allt he headgaskets I do now no matter what on idi's are 1.9 gaskets. 2 of the most recent ones I have done are running 35psi, the other one 20 psi, nothing has blown yet. If you want a head put a 1.9 head on there, you won't regret it. Also if you need some portmatching/polishing or some radical headwork with deck mod like malones let me know.
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i did and will be again using a di cam plate in the 1.6L it worked great only problem was the regular dial indicator did not extend llong enough to use it to time the pump last time. so i had to guess time it then..as you said the ramp is much bigger and has a deeper "pit" to bottom the dial indicator on...i think i will have that solved this time a s friend here diesel tech ..he is letting me use a differnt dial indicator with LONG throw so i should be able to time it liek a normal vw diesel.....as for the source of my 12mm plungers i had bought two complet 4bt cummins ve pumps years ago and i used on head on a 1.6Ltd pump ..actually i sent both teh 1.6TD pump and 1 of the 4 bts to piers in bc told him to make the most extreme pump with the combo of both pumps..so it has the 12mm plunger and di cam plate etc....so now i have aconverted 1.6td pumpand 1 complete 4bt 12mm pump..so i plan on using to other complete large shaft 4bt pump on my mech tdi..i will just need to mod the govenor spring...anyhow i hope your right about the 1.9L headgasket....i hope it doesn't blow i always blow em under the water outlet on the side of the head. literally blows em straight out.
thanks
Deo
\x/ Hillfolk!
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I'm actually doing something similar. I have a new cummins 4B pump so I'd like to use the whole thing as it has the new vane pump and everything. It also has a big input shaft. The cam plate is pretty aggressive as it is for DI. Here is a comparison picture:
(http://www.tdtuning.com/pictures/camplates.jpg)
I ripped it apart because I didn't want to use the Cummins timing advance piston as there is no cold start provision. It also has no LDA, so I was going to add one off of a Peugeot pump I have sitting around. I also have a MK2 NA pump that I'm going to take the linkage peices, as well as the 2 detent timing advance/idle adjustment linkage off of. I wouldn't mind finding a 1.9TD cam plate but I guess I'll work with what I've got so far. Oh, I also couldn't use the internal linkage with the peugeot pump top so I swapped in the Peugeot linkage. I'm thinking about going to a 1.9 though so I haven't decided when I might put this pump on the car.
This will dimensionally fit in the 1.6 bracket (I think - haven't tried) but the concern I have is with the offset of the 1.9 pump. Can I use the 1.6 bracket on the 1.9 engine and keep the 1.6 pump offset?
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As i can see, the cummins camplate seems to have a less agressive ramp than a VW TDI.. The VWtdi raach the top faster than the Cummins one. I should think that the cummins can works better than the VW tdi one..
(http://www.vwdiesel.net/picserv/redrotors/campl.jpg)
Marc/
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Dave, you've mentioned a couple of times that you don't have any probs when using the 1.9 head gasket on a 1.6 mechanical head. How are you blocking the extra hole in the gasket?
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No I've only done it on the hydro heads, I am gonna figure something out whenever my friends solid lifter HG starts to leak though. Its funny i have changed about 20 HG's (no joke) in the last few months that I started using the 1.9 headgaskets and none that have come in have been solid lifter. Malone just told me he is bringing in a solid lifter engine soon though so looks like I will have some news in the next couple weeks. I'll let everyone know as soon as it shows up.
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Ahhh, I made an assumption there on the mechanical head part. What do you all think about getting a spare gasket and cutting a piece out? That would be expensive but just thinking about expansion rates and the like.
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Re:4BT Pump/Mechanical injected TDI
there is a guy who recently joined the yahoo samurai diesel list who mods the governor of the 4BT to run the 1.9TDI - it requires a custom drive pulley from what I understand, and you're good to go. Big 12mm piston, I gather. He says you can get a modded brand new 4Bt pump from him for $1500 U.S - He also offers a hybrid but says it's only safe with stock hp, so I would guess he uses a 1.9TD and just mods it for more pressure? And it's only $600 US from him.
I have come across www.ultim8vw.com - which is a guy looking to import European TDI motors for extremely good prices (at least compared to what else I have seen) This makes me think ahead to if/when I kill my 1.9td (I drive under water sometimes) that I'd like the next engine to be a built 1.9TDI. The European end is in Czhechoslovakia - where it seems they like racing diesels. They have electronic pumps, with a harness, or they offer a mechanical hybrid of some sort, from what I gather they need a 1.9TD pump and put the lower end of a 1.9TDI in it/under it somehow. If it has the big shaft and cam of the TDI, with the controls of the 1.9td on it (maybe the 1.9td Euro aneroid is more like the 1.6td version here ). I think. Anyway, they say they can do a Mechanical TDI pump for about $500 if you buy a TDI for like $2300 (I should go back an check all these numbers ) - but I am more interested in opinions on running TDI engines with mechanical pumps. - does this seem like there might be one that would hold up? I'd like to see a peak hp in the low 200's - or maybe more ........
:twisted:
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thanks for the link there is another czech dismantler that does business on the vortex... we need to find a mexican dismantler as they get some cool tdis too.. I'm trying to source a 2.5 5cyl TDI and 6speed manual eurovan conversion..trying to get the 4wd / syncro stuff for it too..as supposedly the fwd eurovans undercarriage is already 4wd ready just bolt up the 4wd stuff and go .. my eurovan is 2003 with 24v vr6 and auto..it drinks gas..argh...ha go from passat tdi to vr6 auto eurovan haha..huge huge diffenrance in mpg..but if i can convert i have heard the 2.5tdi eurovans pull down 35 mpg or so......any how i want to know more about your sammy!....what mph can you run on teh highway?..and what mpg do you get?..my brother had a few and i had soem i was keeping for a diesel swap but i junked it still looking for a clean one to do though...my brotehrs would onely do about 65mph reved out with the gasser and 31" tires..
later
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
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Give ultim8vw an email - he's got some cut-throat prices. He sasy he can source all that stuff -Syncro parts, the tunnel, custom transmissions, all of it.
I have even be working for him as an on-line tech assist - just started yesterday, actually - I'm not a VW tech, but I have an AA degree in Automotive and 5 years in a dealership before I got sick of flat rate :D plus I have been messing with my 1.9td Zuk for about ....7 years - geeze I am getting old. I was thinking 5.
Performance - stock gears, 31's, a little too deep gearing for the 1.9td, with the little k14 turbo. I ran it with no pump mods, and while it was a little warm-running (still had a Suzuki Radiator) it hauled butt, 80 was pretty easy.
Upped the tires to 35" Baja Claws - I chickened out at 90mph, but that was fear of cops on the busy highway. I dd'd it, and at 65-70 mph I was getting 27-28 mpg on the highway - 45 miles highway, 12 miles city, in that commute.
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yeah i dropped him a email and he is looking for a tdi eurovan swap for me..i dropped you name im there for ya..
thanks
deo
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Well Rodney's engine is going back together. Here are some pics of the 1.9TD metal head gasket on the 1.6TD conversion. The first pic is of the head gasket with the copper sealer sprayed on. Notice the taped off part to keep the sealer off of the portion where the slug will go. The second pic is of the .656" diameter, .045" thick plain carbon steel slug. Rod, notched the slug for the coolant passage. The third pick is of the gasket installed with the slug installed and coated with Permatex ultra copper high heat silicone. He put a thin coat on the surfaces of the gasket that were taped off and on the edges, top and bottom of the slug. Then torqued the head to 10ft lbs and let it set up for the last 24 hours.
I will update you all when we fire it up. It will probably be a couple of weeks. Hopefully, this will hold without leaking. At the bottom is a link to the rest of the engine pics....
(http://home.comcast.net/~vphyman/pics/r_eng/rod%20build3.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~vphyman/pics/r_eng/rod%20build4.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~vphyman/pics/r_eng/rod%20build5.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~vphyman/pics/r_eng/rod%20build6.jpg)
http://home.comcast.net/~vphyman/diesels.html