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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: 92Wolfsburg on May 21, 2007, 07:57:59 am
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Hi all, my girlfriend just bought a 92 Jetta Turbo Diesel (I'm pretty sure its the Wolfsburg...its made in Germany). It's in nice shape, has 380,000km and we got it for $1000cdn safetied!!! I have been reading through this site and I bought a bently manual off e-bay and have been puttering with it a little bit. So I've got a couple of q's...
My Bently manual only covers vehicles up to 1990...are there any differences on the 1992 Jettas I should know about?
It's been hard to start in the morning even with temps slightly above freezing. I changed the fuel filter, air filter, oil change with Castrol Syntec VW oil and a couple other minor things. I discovered that the glow plugs were not working...the light would stay on for like 35seconds even if it was warm....I performed all the tests in the Bently manual and they all checked out. When I reconnected all the sensors and relay, the glow plug light started behaving normally, lighting up only after a few seconds. I dont have a test light and instead used a multimeter to check for voltage at the glow plug bus...hooking the positive to the bus and the negative to the negative terminal on the battery and no voltage...I think the multimeter may be FUBAR'd though, as I'm using tinfoil as a fuse. I'll buy a test light to ensure they are working...as well as an ammeter to check the current draw. The glow plugs are all brand new, no wear on them at all because the system wasn't working. Any thoughts?
By reading other posts, I'm also starting to think there may be a small air leak. Is it worth it to install one of those check valve squeeze ball thingys? If so where would I install it?
Does anyone know off hand the size of the hoses used between the pump and filter? I'm thinking of replaceing them just to rule them out but I work on the car at my uncle's place which is out of town....PITA to have to come back to town to buy the correct size.
Awesome little car though other than the cold starting problem...we have been getting 40USmpg (47IMP mpg) pure city driving...not bad!!
Oh and the compression is good it was re-ringed 3 years ago.
Thanks for all the info and sorry for the massive post!!!
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Check glow plug bus current draw with a cheap series type ammeter or a clip on style one to see about 60 amps or so draw at the start. If not then check each individual glow plug for continuity by lifting the bus connections. Replace the inline fuse link. You can make one out of thin copper foil if you are handy. Check the temperature sender connection on the head to make sure that it is not loose. Check sender for continuity also. Check the relay for correct operation. Chances are the contacts are burnt away on it and it is time to replace it if everything else is good.
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Yup, we Canadians need our glow plugs all year round, and since it sounds like you've got good compression the glow plug system is the likely culprit.
If you are lucky they are simply not getting voltage.. confirm your multimeter is working by measuring the battery directly (should see 12V) and then confirm you are getting 12V to the glow plug buss bar when the engine is cold and you turn on the key. No voltage: great !! (much easier to fix than the plugs !!!). Look for a blown glow plug fuse, bad glow plug relay, or a wiring issue. Multimeter to the rescue !!
If you are getting 12 V to the buss bar then chances are one or more glow plugs are not working. (brand new or not). You can confirm with an ammeter (I use a cheap Canadian Tire car dial gauge)... should be 48A at the start down to about 30A as they heat.. but this will just tell you what you already know. To go further you'll need to remove the buss bar between the glow plugs... 8mm wrench and one of the more knucklebusting jobs on a TD, and you'll need a 17mm to remove the steel injection lines to give you room. With the buss bar removed you can check continuity or current draw to each plug... 12A to start. Or remove em all, and use booster cables to connect them to the battery... should glow red hot in a couple of seconds.
The fact that you are noticing hard starts suggests you have at least 2 of the four not working (assuming they are getting power). Me: I always replace them 4 at a time... everything is already apart and the other two will go soon anyway! The brand to get is Bosch.... specifically Bosch Duraterms... latest glow plug technology and seem to last a long time. IMHO this is not the time for generic parts... I prefer to do this job as infrequently as possible.
Holler if any of the above is unclear or you run into a snag... it's not a hard job just tight spaces to work in.
Welcome to the wonderful world of diesels BTW... you got a great deal and should enjoy your purchase for years to come.
Vince
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Turns out it was the fuse after all. There was no crack visable, but when I took it out it just fell apart. I replaced it with a 55amp honda fuse...dont think the extra 5amp rating will hurt anything. Also, I had to bend the fuse up to get it to fit (less distance between the terminals on the VW as opposed to Honda). Nothing at Cdn Tire would fit the closer terminals. If I have problems with the bent up honda fuses I'll probably just buy a fuse block and use that instead. I guess I could always price the correct fuse... Anyway, thanks for the help guys! Mucho Appreciendo
Oh, P.S. do the Duraterms draw more amperage than whatever was stock? A better, faster plug has got to draw more power right? Just curious...I did a search but could not find anything.
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the 50 amp glow plug fusable link is about 2 bucks at the dealer. nice when its an easy fix!
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When you shut the engine off look at the clear large line (fuel feed) if there are bubbles in the line and they flow back to the filter then you have an air leak at a hose clamp or the injector pump main seal is leaking air into the system on shut down.
My 94 Golf has the same problem, there is a leak at my seal letting air in the system on shut down.
Put your ear at the front of the pump by the timing belt cover when the engine is off, if you hear a hissing sound from that area than the injection pump needs a front seal.This may be a further problem becuase if the seal leaks that would likely indicate some internal wear and these are very expensive to overhaul. on mornings that are warm you shouldn't need growplugs.
Best of luck
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Fuse.... sweet... how come I never have that kind of luck ?!!!!
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my 86 Golf 1.6 N/A Is impossible to start cold unless pushed or helped, once warm starts easy. I don't see any clear lines to look for leaks in the lines. If I was to install a clear line, where would I put it and what material does the hose need to be so it doesn't melt? thanks
robert
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Read all the posts in this thread carefully. Look at your glow system first.
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would the glow plugs be the likely culprit here in the south? are they even needed when it is 80 degrees F + ? just wondering. still learning.
robert
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would the glow plugs be the likely culprit here in the south? are they even needed when it is 80 degrees F + ? just wondering. still learning.
robert
with bad compression, yes.
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ok taking it in to the dealership tommorrow to have compression checked and starting diagnosed. I don't think I can check it my self.
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Last time that I was in S.C. it seemed to me that there could be some fairly cool nights especially inland towards the mountains. With lower compression you will need the glow system operable. Fix that first and ignore the dealer's attempts to sell you a new engine/rebuild. It will get you going again.
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yeah... i doubt a dealer would be ready to warrantie low compression...
just fix the GP's and have fun driving a diesel... and be thankful you don't live in the cold climate up north 8)
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I was planning on taking it to the dealership tommorrow for a diagnostic. They said they would check the compression and glow plugs and do a general diagnostic for $86. Are you telling me that I can check the glow plugs myself reasonably easily? And then at least rule that out? How hard is it for me to check the compression and timing? Figured a reg timing light wouldn't work since there are no spark plug wires to clip it to. Engine only has 108,000 miles on it, and body is great, but it sat for years until I made it my project.
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Stop worrying about the compression. Check the glow system by using a clip on ammeter around the wire supplying the glow bus during the start sequence. Then check for potential (voltage) if you have no amps flowing. Then read all the posts here about how to check the glow system. Don't get sidetracked with other possible issues.
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ty doug
the only reason i bring up compression, is because that is the top thing several people on here bring up first. i'm still learning, and this place has been great!!! i'm heading to the parts store right now.
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ok got a voltage meter. is there any easy way to test the glow plugs with just one person? How do you turn the key and check? Sorry if this has been asked before.
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Not really... if you're clever you can rig the meter up so that you can see it from the driver's seat as you turn the key.
Note that this will only tell you if the plugs are getting power... if you're really lucky the answer will be "no" and you'll go looking for a bad fuse or relay. Easy.
If the answer is "yes" then you need an ammeter that can handle 50A to see what the glow plugs are doing with this power.... hence my comment that I use a cheap automotive ammeter (60-0-60 type). Easy.
Or, remove the copper bus bar between all the glowplugs and use your new multimeter to check the resistance of each glowplug. Should be around an ohm... and the good news is that you will already have everything half-apart in preparation for replacing the bad ones you may find. Challanging... you may bruise a knuckle and learn some new words.
To check the timing you need a particular dial gauge and adapter. To check the compression you need a diesel compression gauge (not the same as the typical ones for normal gasser.... much higher numbers).
Sounds to me like $86 dollars well spent... assuming you trust their work.
Vince
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has anyone heard anything bad about vic bailey volkswagon in spartanburg sc?
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Here are the easy ways of checking the glow plug system
To verify voltage, remove the coolant temp sensor, this will leave the plugs on infinitly (I think) Don't leave them on too long though or you will burn them out. Turn the key and check for 12V. If you don't trust your multimeter just touch the wire to the head and look for sparks, but that's an easy way to blow your fuse(s)
Rather then fooling around with the bus bar and all that just go to a garage and ask to borrow their infared thermometer. Shoot each GP (using the above method for tricking the GP relay). You'll notice a temp change, it's a fair bit. If they won't let you borrow it just drop them a fiver, it won't take more then 5 minutes. Again, dont overheat the GPs. Or you can buy a cheapo one for $40
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the way i do it is:
get voltmeter ready in engine bay with the black near a ground and the red near the bus bar.
turn key forward on cold engine (yellow glow plug light comes on, no need to start car).
hurry and touch the black to ground, red to to bus bar, and you should get around 12v for 3 or 4 seconds. maybe less if you are slow :)
you can also test each GP for resistance but i'm not very slick at that.
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Unhooking the coolant sensor is a good thought to give you more time to run to the engine... it fools the glow plug relay into thinking its *really* cold out and the plugs will stay on for their max cycle (20-30 seconds)... they don't stay on forever 'cause a malfunction of the sensor would mean your battery would be drained flat.
Vince
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Thanks Vince,
I kind of figured there would be a maximum amount of time they would stay on for but I wasn't sure
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Those clever engineers at VW think of everything.... :roll:
Vince
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so that's what that clicking is??? seems like the gp's are only on for about 15 seconds before it clicks off (the relay clicks)
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Well i gave up and took my car to the dealer today. after they putzed around with it they proceded to tell me that the glow plug relay was bad, and that probably only three of the four glow plugs were working. Mechanic said he tested it using a used relay he had in his tools. Said I could live with 3 glow plugs for awhile, but I had to have a relay for the glow plugs to work. They were out of relays and it took 4-5 days to get one, so I asked him to sell me the used one. He wanted $40 for the used one. I got out of there for $122. Not sure if that was a good price on the relay. We will see if the prob was fixed in the morning. So far so good. He told me that the compression seemed great but I don't think he actually put a tester on it. Any opinions? :shock:
Well it looks like I could have gotten a new relay for $30 shipped, but I was there and it needed it today not next week, oh well :?
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Ask him the actual compression numbers... if he can't tell you but charged you for a compression test you want your money back.
Many many mechanics will tell you the compression is fine based on their calibrated ear as it starts... to me that kind of test is worth exactly what you should pay for it ie nothing !
Let us know how it starts with the new relay !!
Vince
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$40 for a used one :shock: I'm rich lol
I've paid more for a part now then had I ordered it and waited, I wouldn't worry about it.
It may be the way you wrote your post but the mechanic seems a bit fishy. As Vince said, ask for some solid numbers
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Well i basically went in for an hour diagnostic, whatever it took to get it starting properly. He said it was the relay. When he put in his used one it sent the proper juice to the glowplugs. He also said it was only drawing 30-35 amps telling him that one glow plug was probably out, but it would start fine on 3 and he didn't want to run the bill up past the 1 hour mark. I guess that is cool, they knew I wasn't there to spend alot of money. As far as the compression, I asked him about it and he said again it would have taken over the hour, and in his opinion the way it ran, the compression was excellent, so once he found the problem, he wrapped it up. It was like they had 1 old timey mechanic for the old stuff that came in lol. Hell the $40 I spent on the relay was a side deal, with the service managers approval, strange place but worked for me. We will see in the morning when it is stone cold. I'm not thrilled with them in general, but if that was it, I'm happy. I'd have spent far more time and money trying to figure it out myself.
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Hopefully it works for you
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$40 for a used one :shock: I'm rich lol
I've paid more for a part now then had I ordered it and waited, I wouldn't worry about it.
It may be the way you wrote your post but the mechanic seems a bit fishy. As Vince said, ask for some solid numbers
when people are in need of something, they will usually pay... anything! :lol:
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mtnbob -- i think you faired pretty well for giving your car up to the mercy of the dealer.
alternate scenario: you use our help and a $10-15 multimeter (and maybe the bentley manual) to find the problem, get a used relay from burn your money or someone local or a junkyard for no more than like $20 (sometimes free), all said and done about $30 in the hole and next time you'll have confidence in troubleshooting the GP system.
none-the-less i think you did well. :)
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Well give me a little credit. I bought the multimeter, tried to figure out if the glow plugs were getting juice, replaced the fuel filter and fuel lines. At that point, I threw myself on the mercy of the dealership in a very limited way($82 diagnostic + parts if I authorized) We don't all pop out of the womb with a deep knowledge of the inner workings of older diesel engines. Btw Burn Your Money was kind enough to sell me a starter that I used the guts out of to fix my starter. Basically taking both apart and using the best parts from each to come up with a starter that is working great. So there might be hope for me yet :roll:
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I'd say you are doing well.
Most of us have learnt (usually the hard way) that the dealer's don't know a whole lot about our cars anymore and will run up a huge bill trying to figure it out. If you have a dealership with a knowledgable mechanic then that is something else.
How was cold starting this morning?
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Drum Roll Please.........
Started on first crank, fastest it ever has. Of course it is almost 80 degrees outside, but no matter the temp it never started without help from starting fluid or very prolonged cranking. Woooooooo Hooooooooooo!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D
Strange mechanic but he knew what he was talking about, and that's all that matters to me!! Hopefully i'll never have to go back though. I have many projects to do to this car before it is my daily driver and i'm counting on some help from all the knowledgable people on here to see me through. :D
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Wonderful, money well spent :D
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Them diesels love their glowplugs...