VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: mansvw on May 14, 2007, 07:12:04 pm
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Hi all,
I'm trying to get down to the cause of the problem,...
would a blocked injector cause such rough idle, which in turn cause the car to stall? :cry:
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hmm possibly but check the fuel delivery system first.. filter etc. bubbles in the system will cause rough idling too.
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the filters new, no visiable air bubble in the clear fuel lines... i've checked delivery to the injectors at the union nut at the top of the injectors by loosening the nut and turning the ignition key without the gas pedal been touched, diesel can be seen at this point.
i may just be the injectors (blocked)???????
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with the amount of pressure going to the injectors, its hard to believe that they will be blocked... sometimes they can 'stick' and that is when a good diesel purge could possibly free them.
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all changed for new ones now :) ......
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how's your idle now?
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it was was still rough and switchig off, what a waste of money...but has to be done, it the process of fault finding...didn't help the idle one bit tho :( .
what about the cold start on the injector, could it be sticking?
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i doubt the cold start would do it...
if you can get your hands on a nice little diesel lift pump, i'd say try it.
supposedly they can 'wake up' tired old injection pumps. i think the pump may be starving for fuel somewhere along the way...
but in the meantime, try running the motor off of a can of diesel. that will eliminate the lines going back to the tank as the culprits.
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Realy dumb question, did this problem just develop, or did is come after changeing or adjusting somthing, or even filling up? Also have you done a quick timing check since, I've found that could do it. I know you probably have done all this but I thought I would ask.
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=8362
Same author
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Thanks Saurkraut, that sheads a little light on things. Mansvw, the symptoms of the problem you are having appears to be exactly the same as what baffled me the first time I timed a VW Diesel. :)
To look at the marks on the flywheel, you have gain access to the "inspection hole" on the transmission case.
There is a plug that pulles straight out of a plastic sleeve (plug almost looks like it was translucent at one time and sleeve lookes like it could accept a really big allen wrench) This is NOT what you want to remove. You would see a notch cut in plastic rather than a metal arrow pointing down. This is not the correct refrence mark to have the flywheel line up with and you couldn't see the correct flywheel marks anyway.
Instead, the plastic "sleeve" that the plug fits into needs to be treaded out (like a plastic bolt) and that will then reveal a metal arrow pointing down. There will be a spot on the flywheel that has multiple markings (4 to 6 i think) line up the arrow with the one that looks like a "0" cast directly beside it.
Anyway, this is what had fooled me before. :roll: Hope this helps. Keep us posted.
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How are your motor mounts?
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ill post some pics later on....
IT'S STILL BROKE :(
55mpg06 - thanks all, got the timimg belt on and set up the flywheel and crank etc. i will give you a full feedback 2nite. the can still doesn't want to idle correct and still smokes.
so far:
new glow plugs x4
new injectors x4
new timing belt and tensioner
checked idling speed valve resistance
i narrowed it down to the pump timing and pump itself.
does anyone know what the tool for checking the injector pump compression?
and would any one have any suggestions on the pump it self? the cover for timing control, would it be worth opening and cleaning?
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i've taken a few pics of the timing tools that i used or tried to use...
first set of timing tools that i bought were...
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06012.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06010.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06004.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06003.jpg)
these two tools were wrong, the pin won't fit anywhere in the injection pump pulley
so after abit more research i found out that my injection pump is a two piece pump and requires a different set of tools..... below
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06020.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06018.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06009.jpg)
:) perfect set of tools.... only if i knew the first time round, that would have saved me loads of time. anyways that the learning curve for ya...
as you may of read in the earlier post... im now 100% sure the fault is in the pump and not anywhere else. i've posted the pic below and was wondering if it would be worth removing this cover and having a look to see if i can find anything broken?
Any injection pump guru's out there????????
the red arrow, sorry for they distorted pic
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/Graphic2.jpg)
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Not positive, but I think that a spring that has to do with the timing lives in there, as well as some other parts. Look here if you have high speed.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4353
It shows the IP in great detail.
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come on guys...... i now really need to get the car back on the road :cry:
its been a couple of weeks now, im sure there are some proper diesel pump experts on this forum.... a few of them hang around the IDI section... im calling out for your help...
has anyone had symptons like this and how did they resolve them, please
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How exactly did you time it?
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i didn't exactly time it because i just verfied the TDC and flywheel markings..... in the process i replaced the timing belt and tensioner for added reassurance....
after all that the car still had the same old symptoms when it cam to starting it.... only now i've come to the other conclusion maybe "and that's a big maybe" the pump pulley has shifted and the pump is out of sync, because my pump don't have a key between the pulley and shaft.
so, im looking for one of those diesel pump timing gauges with "mm" reading scale on it.
the fault finding continues...... :cry:
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i would say that until you have the motor timed within spec, don't expect a nice smooth idle :lol:
i had a jetta that i thought was going to rattle itself to death... it was pretty bad. still drove really great though with awesome mileage.
have you checked out your motor mounts??? i had a broken front mount a year ago... fine while driving, but idle was a bit off and going in reverse would be really bouncy etc...
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"jtanguay"
the engine mounts are all okay, i changed the lot of them last year ( all three), their still fine.
did your motor also smoke with the rough idle? mine does, large clouds of white when i rev the engine.
:cry:
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Mine had lots of white when the timing was off. Loosen the IP bolts enough to be able to turn the pump, mark the current position, start the engine and rotate the bump slowly and see if that helps any. If it does, better get the dial indicator out. Also having bad glowplugs will give white smoke.
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yea... white smoke revving at idle is bad timing... my old car did smoke white when cold though... but the compression wasn't the greatest..
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"jimfoo" Kool dude, i may give that a go, but it sound abit dangerous to me. i may just invest i a new dial indicator to be safe :)
i've replaced the glow plugs, so the white from the plugs is out of the question. cross my fingers and hope its the timing now.
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I just to get a few things clear before i atempt to do any timing on the injection pump.
first of all is this my fuel cut-off valve i've arrowed in the picture?
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/fuelcutoffvalve.jpg)
would any know how to remove the timing plug from the center of the pump? i can't get a spanner on it due to the injection valves and a socket wouldn't fit because of the cable in the rear. whats the cable for, i thought it was just a plug?
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/timingcheck.jpg)
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That doesn't look like a normal IDI pump. Are you sure you don't have a TDI? I'm not sure what their pumps look like. On all the plugs I've seen, it is just a plug, no wires. Also there is nothing like you have pointed out that is above the fuel lines in any IDI pumps I've seen, just the LDA.
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"jimfoo" don't say that am already well confused, if your saying you've never seen that on IDI engines, im lost... ive also put aother pic of the engine bay below, hopefully that convinces you its a IDI. its turbo'd and no intercooler, its one of the last IDI models that were sold here.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/10.jpg)
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My suggestion for timing that beast is to pull that plug off (it looks like it just pulls off) and then see if there is something there you can unbolt. I had to use a socket wrench with an extension to get at mine.
As far as the fuel shut of valve goes, WEIRD! I don't have any suggestions really. sorry.
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"mac.man25" it don't look as if il be able to pull the cable out of the plug. here is a better picture, it looks as if the nut and cable are one piece unit.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06265.jpg)
ive got a exploded diagram of the pump and the plug can be seen at number 60. from the diagram its a one piece unit and it is called a impulse sender, it must do something :?
the other thing that i think is a fuel cut off valve is at number 62, but didn't have a discription :(
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/injector_pump.jpg)
any1 know what size that plug maybe?
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that looks like some early attempt to eliminate the need for a timing gauge to time the pump...
what are the two wires hooked up to??? maybe if you hook it up to a multimeter you could measure some sort of resistance from it...
i would much prefer having your setup, but also having the proper tool to digitally time the pump.
anyone else know what to do???
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the other end of those wires are connected up to the main engine wiring harness.
the only other way i can think of is to remove the first 2 outlet injection valves closest to the front of the car and get a spanner on it. :(
does any one know what the size spanner i would use?
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Well, from what I can tell of the diagram, #6 is the fuel solenoid. Maybe the thing you have pictured is for some type of emissions? Would it help to cut the closed end of a spanner to make a slot that would fit over the wires? My plug is 12 mm I think, but from your pic, it looks like yours is probably the same size as the fuel line nuts. Another option might be to get a deep socket and cut a slit up it for the wires.
(http://www.66rover.com/temp/injector_pump.jpg)
It screws into the top of the head.
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as an open ended spanner don't fit pass the valve due to the size. but that's an excellent idea "jimfoo" an open slot on a socket. that reminds me of the slotted one sided socket you can get for Lamdba O2 sensors.
I think it might be a 17mm or 16mm from the looks of it. I got to get my hands on one of those sockets.
cheers :)
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Often a "crows foot" wrench will fit as well...
Vince
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"vince" i don't think ill be able to get a crows foot wrench in there unless i remove the injection valves.
if it's possible to not remove the injectors ill try that first.
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I think I have the same pump in my garage. I'll take a look at it to see if I come up with any ideas
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cheers "burn_your_money" that would be great mate :)
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had abit of time this evening, so i got out the old grinder. I had a go at grinding a slot in a double-ended 17mm off-set spanner so i can remove the plug from the rear of my injector pump.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06312.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06309.jpg)
got it to fit over the cable, and loosened the bolt. I didn't remove it just yet because im still waiting for delivery of my new DTI injection pump timing gauge.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/mansvw/DSC06304.jpg)
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I checked my pump and it is not the same
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:(
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Hi guys,
I've now bought my self a DTI gauge. I'm trying to set the injection pump timing, but im having difficulty doing the timing, and unsure about the flat spot. How do you differentiate where to start measuring 0.80mm from the flat spot? if that makes any sense.
Has anyone done timing on the AAZ, i need help.
When the DTI gauge has been set to 1mm preload after turning it, should it be 0.80mm or should the gauge read 1.80mm?
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um...
basically you turn the crank until the gauge is zero'd (gauge stops moving) then you zero the gauge. from here you loosen the pump sprocket to adjust the plunger travel. turn the pump until it reads 1.0mm on the gauge, and then re-tighten. turn the engine over twice and re-check. if all is good tighten everything up, and be done with it!
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um...
basically you turn the crank until the gauge is zero'd (gauge stops moving) then you zero the gauge. from here you loosen the pump sprocket to adjust the plunger travel. turn the pump until it reads 1.0mm on the gauge, and then re-tighten. turn the engine over twice and re-check. if all is good tighten everything up, and be done with it!
Don't you "zero" the gauge to 1.0 mm when it stops moving, turn the engine back to TDC, lock cam and pump sprocket, then loosen bolts and turn pump to 1.0mm?
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Don't you "zero" the gauge to 1.0 mm when it stops moving, turn the engine back to TDC, lock cam and pump sprocket, then loosen bolts and turn pump to 1.0mm?
Yes that sounds correct
turn engine to TDC
install gauge with 2mm preload
turn engine CCW until guage stops moving
set guage to 1mm (or closest mm marking)
turn engine CW until at TDC
loosen pump bolts and rotate the pump until you have the desired timing
The last step that I gave you is for solid pulleys, I think you'll have a split pulley so it's a bit different
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zeroing the gauge to 1.00mm??? i don't get it... why do they call it zeroing the gauge then? :?
i did leave out some steps from the timing procedure as im sure mansv has the bentley manual to get this far... plus he has the AAZ... i thought that since pulley on the IP was adjustable, it negates the need to lock the cam... or am i wrong?
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You don't want to actually "zero" the guage (set it to 0.00) or you risk lifting it off the cam, which would be useless. I suppose "setting" it to 1.00mm would be a proper way to say it
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You don't want to actually "zero" the guage (set it to 0.00) or you risk lifting it off the cam, which would be useless. I suppose "setting" it to 1.00mm would be a proper way to say it
that can happen just by setting the arrow to point to the zero on the gauge???
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1) At TDC, set it to 2, 3, 4... doesn't matter.
2) rotate the engine backwards (NOT using the crank bolt !!) until the dial gauge stops moving
3) zero the gauge.... set it to 0
4) rotate the engine forwards until exactly TDC. Read the timing.. something like 1.00 mm is what you want for a turbo.
You can set it to 1.00 in step 3 if you want... then the reading would be 2.00 mm... I just set it to zero so I don't have to do any complicated math.
I'm about to help someome do their timing belt and timing... will take my camera and hope to do the sticky of all stickies on timing... easy to get confused.
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When I first set my timing on my AAZ, I did zero the gauge to 0.0, then proceeded to time it. It ran like ***, blowing lots of white smoke. I went back and re-read the procedure later and saw the 1.0mm zero clause. If you don't do it that way, your timing will be 1.0mm off!!!
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http://www.vwdieselparts.com/injtim.htm
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Cheers for that "Vincent Waldon" .
a quick question, at the point when the dial stop moving, is that when you set the dial to "zero" or is it once the dial just start to move again, you set the dial to "zero".?
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Yup.. read the official VW instructions as shown in that link.... in particular, step 3.
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On the web site, and in my book it says to set it to 1.0mm, not 0.
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a quick question, at the point when the dial stop moving, is that when you set the dial to "zero" or is it once the dial just start to move again, you set the dial to "zero".?
I let it stop moving.. and then rotate a bit more... just to be really sure the plunger has bottomed.
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Perhaps the AAZs are a bit different ?? Here's the A2 Bentley's take:
http://www.oneilcastro.com/A2Bentley/FU02/ch5.5.3.html
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Thanks Vincent Waldon, that makes sense........
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Perhaps the AAZs are a bit different ?? Here's the A2 Bentley's take:
http://www.oneilcastro.com/A2Bentley/FU02/ch5.5.3.html
I don't know, but maybe they are. Like I said, mine ran like crap when I set it to 0. So if yours runs good at 0, then leave it. If it doesn't run well, try it at 1.0mm.
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Make shure the pump is not 180 degrees out. Is the pump on the right timing mark. There are two holes in the timing gear right. If you changed the belt and set the pump 180 degrees out you will run if you have good comprestion. This happened at my shop. Some one set timing, the numbers on the dial indicator looked right, but it was 180 degrees out. The car ran and drove into the shop. Same symptoms you have, white smoke rough idle. I would not have belived it if I did not see it. It took me a day to realize what was wrong. So make shure the pump is at it's TDC mark, there is a notch on the inside edge (between the pump bracket and the pully) that needs to be up. good luck. the only other thing what white smoke and rough idle, and no power mean is low compresion. Check the pump for TDC.
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My AAZ only has one hole for the pin, and the pulley is keyed, so it can only go on one way. Not sure if all of them are like that or not.
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All pumps are keyed, and I think at TDC the key points to 11 oclock.
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The only other thing about mine is that after the crash, it ran like ***. I have never really torn a pump apart, and most people dismissed the notion that something could have changed internally, but it did run better when timed from 1.0mm. In the not too distant future, it should be drivable. When that happens, I'm getting it dynoed, and will have them adjust the timing on the dyno. After that I guess I better check the timing and write down what it is.
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sorry about the delay in updating.... its just i haven't had much progress to report back :( , and i've broken a few vital parts.
ill hav a few pics up in a mo.
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The sensor that you have removed to do the pump timing is called in volkswagen talk "commencment of injection valve" this valve talks to the automatic glow plug period control unit, which controls the injection timing - mainly arounf idle and part load.
I am trying to sort this out in my T25 which has an AAZ in but no control unit as yet!
Hope it helps
John
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Hi
Does that mean that the sensor could be the main cuase of the problem? have you tried replacing your yet?
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I am sorry I haven't got a clue! I just know what the sensor is!
If it is at fault a code reader will tell you as the ecu for the pump (yes it does have one) will tell you. Might be a dealer thing for you though.
John